Pre-war and wartime road vehicles

[PhilJ W]

Well the AEC Matador MK1 4x4 would be a good option, they were used for war, haulage, showground and timber work, and they lasted in service for a good couple of decades, especially the timber ones.

The Airfix kit?

[stewartingram]

Thank you for the comments, Phil. Whilst not wanting to hog this thread, I have just come across another gem which I could not resist. Armchair time travel:

 

 

PB

 

Wonderful bit of film, not seen it before, but the thing that amazed me was that I could recognise where the shots were taken, over at least 80% of the film. I should get out more....

[PhilJ W]

Companies such as Carter Patterson were quite common before the war, and their liveries were quite colourful and elaborate, many would make a nice change from the likes of Pickfords. Its a pity that most of these liveries have come down to us only in black & white.

[PhilJ W]

One pre war vehicle that has been suggested is the Dennis Ace, (flying pig). As well as coming in many forms as a lorry it also was fitted with bus and coach bodies and as a fire engine. As for fire engines there was three distinct types in use pre war. The 'Braidwood' which had the crew seated facing outward. This design dated back to Victorian times and was rapidly going out of fashion, although some were being built up to 1939. 'Limousine' this was an enclosed machine like modern appliances with the crew seated facing forward. 'New World' this was a sort of 'halfway house' between the other two types, it was still open but with the crew seated within the body facing inwards. All three types survive in preservation on Dennis Ace chassis.

[wamwig]

Ah yes the John Marsh drawings, think I also got a list about 10-15 years ago but never ordered any at the time, which I somewhat regret now of course as I believe they are no longer available, the Albion would certainly be useful as I think virtually the same body was used on the later Morris CV series.

[PhilJ W]

Ah yes the John Marsh drawings, think I also got a list about 10-15 years ago but never ordered any at the time, which I somewhat regret now of course as I believe they are no longer available, the Albion would certainly be useful as I think virtually the same body was used on the later Morris CV series.

It was the usual practice to transfer these bodies to new chassis due to their specialist nature. The practice ceased during the war due to the GPO having to accept 'of the peg' vehicles. I worked for the GPO in the 60's dealing with the telecom vehicle records. The practice was revived in the 80's using BL Sherpa vans but this time to save unloading the equipment and transferring it to another vehicle when servicing was due. This was achieved in a matter of minutes using a fork lift, but this belongs in the post war section.

[LH&JC]

The Airfix kit?

 

Geez, how could I forget about that! I blame essay writing

[wamwig]

The Airfix kit needs a fair bit of work to look realistic though, not least a decent set of wheels/tyres, Matador Models I believe do an upgrade (including wheels) and their website also has tips on how to improve other Airfix sixties offerings. MMS also do some neat 1:76 vehicles, I have a number myself, including Austin and Morris 'Tillys' and have just branched out into 'Civvy Street' with a Commer N1 and Hillman Minx van.

[PhilJ W]

Another of Matador's 1/76 models is the Russian GAZ AA 2 ton lorry. Just substitute Ford for GAZ and you have a 1931 Ford AA 2 tonner, and change the sterring from left to right. There are quite a few military models in 1/76 scale that can be 'demobbed' for layout use.

[wamwig]

Indeed Phil, IIRC both UM and Military Wheels (Ukrainian?) also make (1/72) Gaz AA's, and the 3 axle AAA

[Coombe Barton]

I model GWR and have been waiting for manufacturers to release suitable vehicles for OO

It would be to know what is presently available for pr-war

No direct answer - but are you aware of this - http://gwr.org.uk/noroad6.html ?

[PhilJ W]

Indeed Phil, IIRC both UM and Military Wheels (Ukrainian?) also make (1/72) Gaz AA's, and the 3 axle AAA

I have the MW kit and it includes enough wheels for two more vehicles as well as alternative doors and windscreen. They also make a VW beetle representing the model that was made up to 1950. A company called ACE produce two Russian staff cars, the GAZ-M1 and the GAZ-11-73 which resemble American cars of the 1930's in fact the bodies are from the 1934 Ford. The bonnets/radiators however are copied from the American International Harvester light trucks some of which were imported into the UK in the 30's, most being fitted with locally produced cabs and bodywork.

[PhilJ W]

A little more armchair research:

 

http://www.flickr.co...ool-1035137@N23

 

 

The diecast model manufacturers may have been a tad slow in coming up with Era 3 models, but there is no shortage of reliable evidence available to them.

 

Whether for private cars, commercial vans and lorries, PSVs, utility and railway vehicles, Mr Google is on the ball!

 

 

PB

This is another one on the list together with the double deck K model. The Bristol/ECW partnership started in the early 30's and could be seen all over the country.

[PhilJ W]

I will have to start somewhere so it might as well be buses and coaches. As you can see from Peters photograph above the Bristol/ECW combination makes a very attractive vehicle. This together with the double deck version could be seen in many parts of the country. There was far more variety in pre war coaches as they evolved between the wars. The open top 'Charabanc' was not produced after about 1930 but there was many about right up until the outbreak of war as shown by one of the photographs on this thread. It is better to describe buses by body manufacturer or style as often the only visible difference was the radiator/bonnet and sometimes the wheels. Here are some suggestions.

Eastern Coach Works (ECW), mostly on Bristol chassis but a few on Leyland and some on Daimler but only a few single deck on AEC.

Metro-Cammel, Mostly purchased by municiple operators such as Birmingham and Manchester, the Manchester ones were often on Crossley chassis.

Other styles of bodywork were also common, the Charabanc I have already mentioned, also there was the one-and-a-half deck coach similar to the post war one made by Dinky.

[PhilJ W]

I'm not sure if this has been seen before; it is certainly new to me. An interesting challenge: how many vehicle types can we identify, and how many of those would we wish to see modelled as r-t-p diecasts? (And included in Phil's final listings.)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKJpbxcL36k&feature=related

 

PB

Most are Austin taxi's as produced by Oxford. The cars that I have identified are >> Humber Pullman, Ford 'Y' , Morris 8 (Series I/II), Humber Snipe staff car followed by a Hillman 14. There is one car at 0.10 could be an Italian FIAT, rather unusual perhaps but they were imported before the war as were German Opels, the latter including the 'Blitz' lorry and bus models. Many 'Axis' imports were run during the war unless they needed major repair but mileages would be low due to petrol rationing anyway. There are several other similar clips included with that one, apparently filmed by US servicemen.

[wamwig]

Blimey looking at the line of the bonnet that US Army lorry looks like a Studebaker rather than the more usual GMC!

 

Quite a rareity and also used by the British Army in small numbers though most were supplied to Russia under lend lease.

[PhilJ W]

There are some model kits of the Studebaker produced in 1/72 scale by some of the East European kit makers.

[wamwig]

There are some model kits of the Studebaker produced in 1/72 scale by some of the East European kit makers.

 

That would be PST I think Phil and I believe its just about out of stock everywhere but I do have a couple somewhere in my stash for future use along with some of their wartime Ford 4x4s, as supplied to the Russians but also used by British and US forces. They also did an enclosed cab GMC, to go with the Airfix open cab version.

[coachmann]

PhilJW's idea of quoting the body builder and ignoring the chassis builder does not work, at least not if one wants accurate models. The Crossley and Daimler front bulkhead was further back than, for example, on Leyland and AEC chassis. Yet the whole bus had to fit into the legal length requirement of 26 feet. Visually the step below the drivers cab was below the door on Crossleys and Daimlers, and offset to the rear on other chassis. Plopping a body on another chassis was often not as straightforward as imagined, and called for some jiggery-pockery around the cab area in particular.

 

I have already alluded to Roe bodies on Daimler chassis. We had some prewar examples in Oldham and because the front bulkhead was further back, the lower saloon was compressed slightly while the space in front of the upper deck front seat was gynormous.....We called them dancehalls!

 

I came across these variations while preparing artwork for etching from official drawings some 15 years ago.

[PhilJ W]

PhilJW's idea of quoting the body builder and ignoring the chassis builder does not work, at least not if one wants accurate models. The Crossley and Daimler front bulkhead was further back than, for example, on Leyland and AEC chassis. Yet the whole bus had to fit into the legal length requirement of 26 feet. Visually the step below the drivers cab was below the door on Crossleys and Daimlers, and offset to the rear on other chassis. Plopping a body on another chassis was often not as straightforward as imagined, and called for some jiggery-pockery around the cab area in particular.

 

I have already alluded to Roe bodies on Daimler chassis. We had some prewar examples in Oldham and because the front bulkhead was further back, the lower saloon was compressed slightly while the space in front of the upper deck front seat was gynormous.....We called them dancehalls!

 

I came across these variations while preparing artwork for etching from official drawings some 15 years ago.

I started these lists with the idea of what would be possible as well as desirable. From a manufacturers point of view it is simply a case of 'Can I sell enough units to make my considerable investment worthwhile?' To do this it is sometimes necessary to make compromises. For example the AEC/Roe combination was popular with several Yorkshire municipalities but that would include many different variations such as different placing and type of ventilators/windows/steps/emergency exits as well as variations in the chassis. In such cases a manufacturer will produce a standard casting and hope that no one will notice the difference, and outside of the MBF few seem to notice.

[iL Dottore]

I'm afraid that I'm rather ignorant when it comes to matters automotive, but one thing has struck me a being very different in the 1920s - 1930s (at least from the photos I've seen) was ratio of private vehicles to commercial (and public transport veehiclees), the overwhelming majority of seem to be commercial/public transport. Yet this area seems quite under represented. It also seems that commercial vehicles had a much longer lifespan than today. I've seen photos of the 1930s with quite a lot of pre-war (i.e. pre - WWI) vehicles still going strong

 

A few decent AEC, Daimler and Crossley commercials would be of great use. I would think that a suitable cab and chassis of each type (AEC, Daimler and Crossley) for each decade between 1910 and 1940 would probably cover a majority of (model) transport needs well into the late 50s

[PhilJ W]

Many of the ex Great war lorries lasted beyond WW2 but were barely recognisable having been fitted with enclosed cabs and pneumatic tyres. The principal makers were AEC, Dennis, Leyland and Thornycroft. The subsidy scheme continued until the early 30's and those vehicles covered by it were obsolete by WW2. The military preferring to commandeer vehicles in time of war.

[PhilJ W]

Motorcycles and 3 Wheelers.

Some motorbikes were designed specifically for sidecars such as the Ariel Square four and BSA V-twin. The Sunbeam was even designed exclusively for sidecars. There was about four different passenger sidecars, the open single seater was the simplest followed by an enclosed coupe' version. Next was the saloon version that could hold up to 4 persons and then the 'family' type some of which could seat 7! The only limiting factor was a weight limit of 8 cwt (896lbs) which also applied to 3 wheeled cars and vans. With two or three motorcycles and four sidecars a manufacturer could come up with plenty of (motorcycle) combinations. The earliest Reliant 3 wheelers had the front wheel and forks exposed like a motorbike, this followed on from the Raleigh 3 wheel vans which had the same arrangement. Raleigh also made the 'Super Seven' which was similar to the post war Reliant 3 wheelers. Most 3 wheel cars were like the Morgan with a single wheel at the back, the only other significant make was BSA which had the distinction of being front wheel drive. I would like to see some motorcycle and/or sidecars produced as well as the Raleigh vans and Morgan 3 wheeler.

[PhilJ W]

Just received by post. Oxford Austin 18 ambulance. Superb model complete with bell and spotlight 10 out of 10.

[PhilJ W]

Another, possibly minority choice, suggestion to consider:

 

http://www.mister-ca...ntArticleID=730

 

 

Style and substance.

 

PB

The Russian staff cars that I mentioned are very similar. Item # 310267877821 on e-bay.