Post War Private Owner Wagons

[46444]

Following on from my link about GWR brake van depot allocation transfers I was pointed in the direction of the POW Sides website. As it happens I found a good many private owner wagons that would have operated on the Teign Valley line.

 

However, am I right in saying during WW2 changes were made to private owner wagon ownership? If so what happened to them post war? Would they have returned to their rightfull owner or would they have become part of a common user pool.

 

What I'm trying to avoid is a rake of private owner wagons that wouldn't be prototypical.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

[multiprinter]

I think I' right in saying that all PO wagons were taken into Government ownership during WW2. I'm not sure if they were returned - tanks may have been - before becoming the property of BR at nationalisation by which time many were in pretty poor shape. It was primarily to replace ex PO opens that the vast quantity of BR 16t steel minerals were built.

[Pennine MC]

There are several existing threads on this, unfortunately terms like 'PO' and 'RCH' arent the easiest to search for

 

Edit - here's one with a fair bit of info: My link

[46444]

Thanks for both of your replies.

 

I did have a scout about for some info, but as you say Penine, it's not the easiest topic to search for.

 

Also I've personally never seen a topic on this recently. Now you're going to prove me wrong!

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

[Pennine MC]

 

Also I've personally never seen a topic on this recently. Now you're going to prove me wrong!

 

 

Just did, see my edit

[46444]

Yep! You've kind of proved me wrong!

 

Saying that it deals more with post-nationalisation and one of the posts mentions stone wagons as being exempt from pooling during the war.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

[industrial]

As far as I can tell they were still pooled after WW2 but still belonged to the owners. Don't forget that they will not be in clean paint condition with most of the end door wagons with a white bar down the bar that ran diagnely across the wagon, also new planks were not repainted by then.

[46444]

Thanks Industrial,

 

That's the kind of information I'm looking for.

 

From my resources I have, most of the information I have is pre-war not the period between 1945-1947.

 

So if wagons belonged to their owners I presume they would have been seen on their traffic i.e in my case Teign Valley Granite. Or would they have been mixed rakes where anything goes?

 

Thanks,

 

Mark

[wagonman]

As far as I can tell they were still pooled after WW2 but still belonged to the owners. Don't forget that they will not be in clean paint condition with most of the end door wagons with a white bar down the bar that ran diagnely across the wagon, also new planks were not repainted by then.

 

 

Just to add to what Industrial said, most mineral wagons (coal and stone) were pooled as from Sept 1939 and while remaining the notional property of their owners were probably never seen by them again though the owners remained responsible for their upkeep. The increasingly woebegone survivors were nationalised with the rest of the railway system on 1 Jan 1948.

 

Specialised wagons such as tarred roadstone were not pooled and remained with their owners until taken into BR ownership in 1949-50 when they were given numbers in the 36xxxx series. There were 10 wagons still running in Teign Valley Granite livery in 1946, albeit with the Roads Reconstruction Ltd roundels added to their livery.

 

Tarred roadstone wagons didn't usually work in block trains – just 2 or 3 together would have been normal from what I've been able to ascertain.

 

 

Richard

[46444]

Just to add to what Industrial said, most mineral wagons (coal and stone) were pooled as from Sept 1939 and while remaining the notional property of their owners were probably never seen by them again though the owners remained responsible for their upkeep. The increasingly woebegone survivors were nationalised with the rest of the railway system on 1 Jan 1948.

 

Specialised wagons such as tarred roadstone were not pooled and remained with their owners until taken into BR ownership in 1949-50 when they were given numbers in the 36xxxx series. There were 10 wagons still running in Teign Valley Granite livery in 1946, albeit with the Roads Reconstruction Ltd roundels added to their livery.

 

Tarred roadstone wagons didn't usually work in block trains – just 2 or 3 together would have been normal from what I've been able to ascertain.

 

 

Richard

 

Morning Richard,

 

Excellent information.

 

So if I was running a stone train some of the wagons may have been from other users then I take it?

 

I'm interested in your sources for the Teign Valley Granite livery, because these are the wagons I'm particularly interested in. Most of the photos I have are when they were either ex-works photos or in the 1930's when the livery changed from red to black. I wasn't aware they carried the the RRL roundels either.

 

I take the point these wagons would have been in very rough in appearance after the war as well.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

[wagonman]

Morning Richard,

 

Excellent information.

 

So if I was running a stone train some of the wagons may have been from other users then I take it?

 

I'm interested in your sources for the Teign Valley Granite livery, because these are the wagons I'm particularly interested in. Most of the photos I have are when they were either ex-works photos or in the 1930's when the livery changed from red to black. I wasn't aware they carried the the RRL roundels either.

 

I take the point these wagons would have been in very rough in appearance after the war as well.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

 

 

Hi Mark

 

Teign Valley Granite was the origin of RRLtd so I assume their wagons carried the roundel at least from 1934 onwards. I don't have too much information on TVG wagons as my focus is on Somerset and points east. That said there is a photo in the book 'Moving Mountains by Rail' by Ian Peaty which shows a TVG wagon still in the red livery but with the lower part of the door panel overpainted in a lighter colour with black lettering "Roads Reconstruction Ltd/Engineering Contractors/Bristol" in three lines of black text which I take to be a precursor of the later roundel. That book has a couple of other photos of TVG wagons but they all seem to date from the 1920s. I assume they carried the roundel simply because all the other wagon fleets taken over by RRLtd did so.

 

I would imagine the tarred roadstone wagons might have been in slightly better nick that the pooled coal wagons if only because their owners could keep an eye on them! As for operations, I doubt there would have been wagons from different operators in the same train. As I understand it a load of tar would be sent from the works to whichever station was nearest the site of the roadworks they were contracted to supply. As the contract would most likely be with just the one supplier there wouldn't be any other wagons of similar type except by the oddest coincidence. The stone wagons would of course be part of an ordinary local goods train, at least for the beginning and end of their journey. There is a pre-war photo of 3 Foster Yeoman wagons in the goods yard at one of the outer Met stations which I would take to be typical.

 

Hope this is of some use.

 

Richard

[Pennine MC]

 

Saying that it deals more with post-nationalisation and one of the posts mentions stone wagons as being exempt from pooling during the war.

 

 

Ah yes, see your point Mark - you're interested in that little window between '45 and '48

[46444]

Evening,

 

Thanks Richard once again.

 

Really appreciated. At least I can safely run some TVG wagons now and will order some from POW Sides. Might get a a Candy Tiles of Heathfield one as well!

 

What I was trying to avoid was an unprototypical consist for the period and this information as been most useful.

 

Thanks as well Pennine. Might have made things clearer if I'd actually stated 45-48 in the title I guess!

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

[Mark Saunders]

Specialised wagons such as tarred roadstone were not pooled and remained with their owners until taken into BR ownership in 1949-50 when they were given numbers in the 36xxxx series.

 

Richard

 

M360XXX number series was issued for former "Non Pool" wagons purchased by BR and covers a varied selection of vehicles.

 

Mark Saunders

[wagonman]

 

Really appreciated. At least I can safely run some TVG wagons now and will order some from POW Sides. Might get a a Candy Tiles of Heathfield one as well!

 

 

Just a tiny bijou snagette... the POWsides transfers are for an early, probably pre 1920s or even earlier, version. When I get the chance I could scan some of the photos in Peaty's book and send them to you off-list (to avoid copyright infringement) if that would be useful.

 

 

Richard

[46444]

Hi Richard,

 

Thats very kind of you and I'll take you up on the offer. I'll PM you. POW Sides do a custom service as well so this may be of some help.

 

I kind of knew the POW Sides TVG transfers were for an earlier period. I think the livery changed to black in the late 20's or 30's. Robbies Rolling Stock do a version of this, but the typeface isn't right.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

[craigwelsh]

If you want some general shots of pooled wagons in the early post war period then 'The 4mm Coal Wagon' is the book to look through. There are a couple of shots of a goods yard in this period showing the general state of such wagons