reevesthecat Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 Just to let everyone know that the line through fleetwood town centre from ash street to the ferry closes sunday for 3 years. So probably last chance to ride a traditional tramcar through fleetwood this weekend. (Oh and the illuminations finish as well)! mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc2001 Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 Thought you might like to see this photo I took 2 weeks ago at Fleetwood. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 Thought you might like to see this photo I took 2 weeks ago at Fleetwood. John Must have extended the promenade a bit look at the destination boards! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reevesthecat Posted November 15, 2009 Author Share Posted November 15, 2009 I wonder if it was one of the driving experience courses (for 350 quid), was usually a brush car but there are apparently add on options for the vintage fleet. I have seen a few of these courses in action. I think I can tell as they are outside of the usual driving school times- less people in the tram than a usual driving school course and all the drivers are not in uniform. Might ask for one for my 40th bthday (18 months away). cheers mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc2001 Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 I wonder if it was one of the driving experience courses (for 350 quid), was usually a brush car but there are apparently add on options for the vintage fleet. I have seen a few of these courses in action. I think I can tell as they are outside of the usual driving school times- less people in the tram than a usual driving school course and all the drivers are not in uniform. It was late morning on Tuesday 3rd Nov 2009. There were 3-4 people on the tram but they all got out and went off (for a cuppa?) when I took the photo - there's actually no one on board! I can't recall if they were wearing uniform and I didn't see the tram again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ramrig Posted November 15, 2009 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 15, 2009 Just to let everyone know that the line through fleetwood town centre from ash street to the ferry closes sunday for 3 years. So probably last chance to ride a traditional tramcar through fleetwood this weekend. (Oh and the illuminations finish as well)! mark Why the closure? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reevesthecat Posted November 16, 2009 Author Share Posted November 16, 2009 It's the 85 million upgrade when finished we will have 16 new bombardier trams and new infrastructure throughout. The track through fleetwood town centre needs realignment apparently because the trams are wider and also small platforms need to be built- not sure why this takes 3 years either but we will see! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 I wouldn't mind betting that nothing has happened to the track through Fleetwood since the service ceased just over a week ago. IMHO the upgrade is necessary but why on earth it should take so long is something I don't understand. Where does this leave Tram Sunday in July? Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLD Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 It's the 85 million upgrade when finished we will have 16 new bombardier trams and new infrastructure throughout. The track through fleetwood town centre needs realignment apparently because the trams are wider and also small platforms need to be built- not sure why this takes 3 years either but we will see! I wouldn't mind betting that nothing has happened to the track through Fleetwood since the service ceased just over a week ago. IMHO the upgrade is necessary but why on earth it should take so long is something I don't understand. Where does this leave Tram Sunday in July? Chris Nothing done yet in Fleetwood, except some work on the overhead line to disconnect at Ash St where the service will terminate for the next two years but work has started at other sites. As I understand, the work is to be done in chunks from January - Easter in each of the next three years because the locals objected rather loudly to a continuous 12-14 months of disruption which would have been the alternative option... As Mark says, the tracks need respacing which adds to the work over a simple relaying which adds to the timeframe. Tram Sunday shouldn't be affected as since 2001 all trams have stopped at Ash St on that day anyway, and the works aren't sheduled to include July so streets should be available for the usual road exhibits. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Russ (mines a pint) Posted December 14, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 14, 2009 It's the 85 million upgrade when finished we will have 16 new bombardier trams and new infrastructure throughout. The track through fleetwood town centre needs realignment apparently because the trams are wider and also small platforms need to be built- not sure why this takes 3 years either but we will see! Are they totally replacing the old style trams then? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reevesthecat Posted December 14, 2009 Author Share Posted December 14, 2009 Hi they are not replacing all the old trams some are to be retained to run over the summer and illuminations ,some balloon cars are recieving door modifications to work with the platforms which will be constructed for the new fleet. However some such as 607 and 703 have been preserved and I am sure more will go. Incidentally the overhead has been stolen again around the rossall square stop with damage to the traction poles but work has started from thornton gate to replace the poles which were not done in the 90's working toward fleetwood. hope this is useful cheers mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Russ (mines a pint) Posted December 14, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 14, 2009 Can see how it being modernised will be of benefit to the locals, but cant see it having the same appeal to visitors? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluegoblin7 Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Hi all! Various elements to this post... bear with me! It was late morning on Tuesday 3rd Nov 2009. There were 3-4 people on the tram but they all got out and went off (for a cuppa?) when I took the photo - there's actually no one on board! I can't recall if they were wearing uniform and I didn't see the tram again. Yup, 513 was running on a Tram Driving Experience course - see http://tramways-monthly.com/latest-news/november-2009-news-archive/119-513-on-tde Why the closure? As others have already said, it's part of a multi-million pound investment in the tramway to upgrade it. When re-opened the tracks will have been re-aligned and have level boarding platforms like other systems in Britain. Are they totally replacing the old style trams then? Not totally replacing, but they won't be running as much. 14 new "LRVs" have been ordered from Bombardier which will run the bulk of the Starr Gate-Fleetwood services, while a number of modified Balloon cars will be fitted with "porches" and plug doors to allow them to level board - these will operate Pleasure Beach-Cleveleys services during the high season - though as they are not completely DDA accessible beyond 2020 there will be a limit on how much they can run (I believe). A number of "heritage" cars will also be kept, and these too will only be able to run on certain days and no more than 20 a year. They will likely be restricted to tours and certainly not on normal service, though they may end up on specials. However some such as 607 and 703 have been preserved and I am sure more will go. To date, Brush Cars 632 and 634, (632 LTT, 634 privately) Boat 605 (LTT) and Balloon 703 (also LTT) have been preserved recently. Furthermore, last year works car 752 and ex-towing railcoach 679 entered preservation to Heaton Park and the LTT respectively, whilst Vanguard 619 is due to make the move to Heaton Park next year. It is expected that some cars will be taken by the National Tramway Museum at Crich, whilst the East Anglian Transport Museum are also interested in a boat. There are also rumours that another Balloon has been preserved, though these are as yet unconfirmed. Finally, I may be purchasing a tram in the next few years, once they have been released from service duties. Can see how it being modernised will be of benefit to the locals, but cant see it having the same appeal to visitors? Just to let everyone know that the line through fleetwood town centre from ash street to the ferry closes sunday for 3 years. So probably last chance to ride a traditional tramcar through fleetwood this weekend. (Oh and the illuminations finish as well)! mark To mark the occasion, there was a weekend of special tours held - you can see full coverage in the Tramways Monthly Supplement, available from http://www.tramways-monthly.com. Thanks a lot, and hope this helps! Jack Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Russ (mines a pint) Posted December 22, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 22, 2009 though as they are not completely DDA accessible beyond 2020 there will be a limit on how much they can run (I believe). A number of "heritage" cars will also be kept, and these too will only be able to run on certain days and no more than 20 a year. They will likely be restricted to tours and certainly not on normal service, though they may end up on specials. Does that suggest that this has been 'necessary' rather than out of choice? -thought the best things ('or only' without wishing to be rude)about Blackpool were the tower (the actual tower) illuminations & the trams (- gets coat) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluegoblin7 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Does that suggest that this has been 'necessary' rather than out of choice? -thought the best things ('or only' without wishing to be rude)about Blackpool were the tower (the actual tower) illuminations & the trams (- gets coat) Yes and no. Beyond 2020 all passenger transport vehicles MUST, by law, be fully disabled accessible to be compliant with the DDA. Non-compliant vehicles can run, but only if the same journey can be made by a compliant vehicle, and is not operated instead of - an example being the Heritage Routemaster routes in London. Therefore, all of the current trams except the Western Train (as it has a wheelchair lift) must be replaced by 2020 for it to continue as a public transit operation. However, the tramway could be converted to a tourist attraction which would mean that the current vehicles could remain, but would probably see a reduce in frequency and higher costs - and I doubt BTS would operate such a thing. Therefore, what has happened is a sort of compromise between the two. While the route will be operated by Supertrams, there will be a number of heritage vehicles operating up to a maximum of 20 days per year - likely to be during the summer and Illuminations. More info is available at forum.tramways-monthly.com and in the main Tramways Monthly mag, as well as further updates over the next few years. J Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reevesthecat Posted December 23, 2009 Author Share Posted December 23, 2009 Hi Jack thanks for the link to the tramways monthly mag I will get round to subscribing (is it free), couple of bits from blackpool -near me (rossall hospital) the overhead has again been stolen there are poles with broken traction arms between rossall square and broadwater also a Mr Fenton has written to the gazette wanting his dad cleared of blame for an accident which happened in 1980. At the time he got 100% of the blame downgraded to 20% following appeal. I am thinking it may be 705/706 accident but not sure. Also quite surprised they have tarmac over the lines at thornton gate would have thought rails would have been perfect way to deliver materials to site loading in the yard! cheers mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluegoblin7 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Your welcome for the info - pleased to help fellow enthusiasts out! Yup, TM is free to subscribe to, so feel free! Heard about the overhead, idiots! Hopefully once the new stuff is up it'll be energized straight away. Random! The 705/706 accident was in 1984, so it might be a different one, but also might be - very interesting though. This was brought up somewhere else I believe. As the tramway is closed and large amounts of it have been pulled it it would be difficult to transport it by rail to where it's needed, and also there is the question of security and where to keep the trams, as they would not be able to return to the depot. While this has now been done with car 754 and reel wagon 750 for the re-wiring, it's around Bispham and so more "built up" than the area over by Thornton. But yes, stupid! J Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Russ (mines a pint) Posted December 24, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 24, 2009 Therefore, all of the current trams except the Western Train (as it has a wheelchair lift) must be replaced by 2020 for it to continue as a public transit operation. However, the tramway could be converted to a tourist attraction which would mean that the current vehicles could remain, but would probably see a reduce in frequency and higher costs - and I doubt BTS would operate such a thing. Therefore, what has happened is a sort of compromise between the two. While the route will be operated by Supertrams, there will be a number of heritage vehicles operating up to a maximum of 20 days per year - likely to be during the summer and Illuminations. Selectively quoted....... I think they've done half the right thing here, the locals deserve to ride in comfort- but they have modern OPO trams anyway? - The East Lancs ones? will they be classed as old or new? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reevesthecat Posted December 24, 2009 Author Share Posted December 24, 2009 Hi the east lancs trams are very unreliable and also the first one 641 was delivered in 1984! According to the latest trams mag the east lancs ones 641-648 will be kept due to their high book value. Deep snow here at the moment pity tramway not running as we could have seen the snowploughs! mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluegoblin7 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 the east lancs trams are very unreliable That's an urban myth, and quite frankly i'm getting fed up of the amount of people slagging the Centenary cars off. Were it not for the Centenaries the tramway would be in even bigger trouble than it is now in recent years, and the Cents arguably cover the highest mileages year-on-year, providing a service on the tramway virtually all year round. Whilst I haven't got the official mileage/failure figures, i've made some estimations and I believe that the 70-year old Balloon trams break down more per mile covered than the Centenaries - making them more unreliable. Most people overlook the mileage per breakdown fact, and it's extremely annoying. According to the latest trams mag the east lancs ones 641-648 will be kept due to their high book value. Possibly, but probably not. The trams will remain in service until 2012 for certain, but beyond then all reports - official and otherwise - are indicating a withdrawal en masse, with just Balloon cars being retained. They will also need massive alterations to make them DDA accessible (more so than the Balloons) so will disappear beyond 2020 regardless. TRAMS magazine are the ONLY source stating their retainment - when I spoke to a representative of BTS they were stating withdrawal. Jack Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reevesthecat Posted December 24, 2009 Author Share Posted December 24, 2009 Hi Jack I agree with all your sentiments regarding 641-648 they are doing very high mileages with the associated problems this would bring. However being a reader of trams magazine for the last few years they are reporting at least weekly breakdowns which won't help the reputation. As you know there should be 10 (even 11) of them and if BTS hadn't cancelled the last few things could have been different. I did wonder about the retention of these trams as they won't fit the disabled access criteria anyway. Incidentally the 705/6 accident according to a phillip higgs book was 1980. I would love to know if it is possible to obtain the accident report. I believe I met the gentleman in question in a professional capacity (I work in healthcare). mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluegoblin7 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 Without wanting to get petty and slag people off, it's widely known amongst the movement that TRAMS often exaggerate reports and are persistently negative about the Blackpool system... but I won't say any more on that as it would be unproffessional of me in my capacity as Tramways Monthly Editor! The Centenary reliability stats have massively improved over the last few years since the overhauls - even 647, nicknamed the least reliable car in the entire fleet - and breakdowns are increasingly rare - indeed, it's now down to a couple a month max. Fully agree though that an extra three would have solved many problems as there would not have been as much strain on the other eight! Yup, that's why that statement in TRAMS 47 puzzled me so much. Once you start making them DDA-friendly you'd be better off getting a whole new tram! July 22nd 1980 to be precise! From what I understand the now removed southern exit points on Pleasure Beach loop had been left the wrong way and so 705 and 706 collided with each other - 705 being the first (and until this year, only) Balloon to be scrapped, and 706 being re-built into open-top form. Regards, Jack Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Russ (mines a pint) Posted December 24, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 24, 2009 That'll be old Russ Yeah I guess so! In fact its me thats old, I remember them being new The trams will remain in service until 2012 for certain Time to get some visits in then, before all the 'real ones' become museum pieces then, shame really but such is progress! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluegoblin7 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 Time to get some visits in then, before all the 'real ones' become museum pieces then, shame really but such is progress! You're quite right on the progress front - Walter Luff would be turning in his grave if he knew his trams were still running! If your visiting, go next year as it will probably be the last "proper" year (well, tbh, this year up till September 6th was when Starr Gate closed!)... and there's loads of special trams visiting J Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLD Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 The Centenary reliability stats have massively improved over the last few years since the overhauls From discussions elsewhere, in terms of miles run between failures, the least reliable class over the past few years is in fact the Twin Cars (with 671+681 being the worst of the whole fleet) The most relible car in the whole fleet is engineering car 754 which has always managed to get itself back to depot one way or another, or if you're only looking at passenger cars then it's 737 the Illuminated Fishermans Friend Trawler, requiring a tow back to depot only once since it's conversion in 2001... Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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