Dapol HST

[Padishar Creel]

Hallo,

For some reason I cannot copy and paste on ths machine so hope this works (It's called InterCity 125)

 

https://youtube.com/watch?v=R1EK1Md5-mc

 

es grüßt

​pc​

 

[Crepello]

Thanks for that PC; some definite examples there of the buffet end next to standard class--as I would have thought logical. Luckily us modellers don't really have to worry too much which way round our sets are.

[scruff]

I remember walking through second class and into the buffet car at the counter end and the seating area was always next to the first class on the ecml. This was 1983-1990 so only a single buffet car. I think it was so the first class passengers didn't have to mix with the riff-raff when they ordered their meals!

 

Cheers

Mark

[tiger]

Like most posters have said, the orientation on the ECML for many years (blue grey era onwards) was usually that the kitchen/buffet end faced second class and the seating area faced first class.

 

On the east coast the most common catering vehicle was the TRUB (3 large saloon windows per side) which were reclassified as TRFB around 1984-1985. The usual formation was PC - TGS - TS - TS - TS - TS - TRUB or TRFB - TF - TF - PC. A few sets had two catering vehicles until 1984 and in this case the one closer to second class was a TRSB and the one next to first class was a TRUK. I have seen pictures of them coupled with the kitchen/buffet ends together, and with the saloons together, so you can make your own mind up or check with photos.

 

I can't say for certain about the Western Region sets without looking at pictures. Those that penetrated the ECML were the North East - South West 2+7 sets which were formed with only one first class trailer:

 

PC - TGS - TS - TS - TS - TS - TRSB - TF - PC

 

Even on these sets it was more common for the buffet end of the TRSB to face the second class coaches, which meant that the saloon end of the TRSB, which was attached to first class, felt like a nice quiet private saloon which was much less busy than the rest of the train. I think they kept this formation through to the Virgin era. Occasionally the TRSB was the other way round, but this was less common.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Tom.

[Bomag]

Don't forget the ECML Pullman sets (one for Yorkshire one for TT)

 

These were TGS, 2xTS (later 3), TRFB (kitchen end to the north), TF, TRFK (kitchen end to the south), 2xTF.

 

On the lunchtime fill in trips to Leeds and back the middle TF was often declassified.

[tiger]

A few quick questions...

 

I've just encountered a problem whilst running-in a Dapol HST. I have had two HST sets -  one Executive (ND122c), and one Eastern Region blue/grey (ND122h) - stored in the attic for the last few years waiting for me to get on and build a layout! Now that the baseboards are finally constructed I have set up some basic ovals of track and started running-in various items of stock...

 

Out of the box the Executive HST was quiet, smooth and responsive, whilst the blue/grey had more motor or gear "growl", and ran more slowly for a given controller setting. I have already run-in several other Dapol locos and have always followed the instructions meticulously: one drop of oil (Dapoil) on each exposed gear, running at a moderate speed for 30 minutes in each direction on DC powered by a modern Graham Farish (i.e. N gauge) controller. 

 

All seemed to be going well, and the blue/grey power car was becoming quieter. Then after 45 minutes the executive power car suddenly stopped running. I didn't see what happened as I was out of the room, but upon investigating the directional lighting still works in both directions but the motor doesn't spin at all.

 

Is this a common type of failure and if so, does anybody have any idea what the problem is likely to be? PCB? Motor? Something else?

 

It is well and truly out of warranty, having been purchased about 4 years ago. I'm in Australia so it is going to be quite a hassle sending it back to DCC supplies for a repair - is there likely to be anything user-serviceable (unlikely)? What is the likely cost of repair - is it more cost effective to just bite the bullet and purchase a replacement chassis?

 

Finally, is there anything that should be done differently when running-in a model which has been in storage for several years, apart from the standard lubrication? I have several other models waiting their turn in the queue for running-in.

 

Thanks in advance - any ideas gratefully received.

 

Tom.

[Chris Higgs]

Is this a common type of failure and if so, does anybody have any idea what the problem is likely to be? PCB? Motor? Something else?

 

It is well and truly out of warranty, having been purchased about 4 years ago. I'm in Australia so it is going to be quite a hassle sending it back to DCC supplies for a repair - is there likely to be anything user-serviceable (unlikely)? What is the likely cost of repair - is it more cost effective to just bite the bullet and purchase a replacement chassis?

 

Finally, is there anything that should be done differently when running-in a model which has been in storage for several years, apart from the standard lubrication? I have several other models waiting their turn in the queue for running-in.

 

Thanks in advance - any ideas gratefully received.

 

Tom.

 

As no-one with specific knowledge replied, I'll just give my general experiences. Failures could be anything you mentioned. You have already eliminated pwoer from the tarck issues as the lights are on. But if the motor is doing nothing and there are no signs of humming, then more likely a PCB or a loose wire problem. You need to start from the beginning, so open the loco up. Look for anything obvious like a disconnected wire. Next put power from your controller direct to the motor. If it doesn't do anything, you have found your problem. The Dapol motors are a pretty standard size, and you might be able to find a replácement (perhaps even a better one) on ebay etc. The 2mm Scale Association for example sells a motor which is the same size as the Dapol ones.

 

You probably don't want to leave stuff unattended running in after such a long time. Dapol motors do have a habit at times of going up in smoke.  Even if not, you might well have seen something that tells you waht wnet wrong here.

 

Chris

 

Chris

[tiger]

Th

 

As no-one with specific knowledge replied, I'll just give my general experiences. Failures could be anything you mentioned. You have already eliminated pwoer from the tarck issues as the lights are on. But if the motor is doing nothing and there are no signs of humming, then more likely a PCB or a loose wire problem. You need to start from the beginning, so open the loco up. Look for anything obvious like a disconnected wire. Next put power from your controller direct to the motor. If it doesn't do anything, you have found your problem. The Dapol motors are a pretty standard size, and you might be able to find a replácement (perhaps even a better one) on ebay etc. The 2mm Scale Association for example sells a motor which is the same size as the Dapol ones.

 

You probably don't want to leave stuff unattended running in after such a long time. Dapol motors do have a habit at times of going up in smoke.  Even if not, you might well have seen something that tells you waht wnet wrong here.

 

Chris

 

Chris

 

Thanks Chris for the reply, and also to one other RMWebber who sent a PM.

 

After some Googling I found that somebody else had encountered the same problem, and a simple (but unlikely) solution.

 

See Grahame's posts 22 and 23 in this link: http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=30742.msg350332#msg350332

 

I tried the same thing - loosening and re-tightening the motor brush retaining screws with a 00 Philips head screwdriver - and the Executive livery HST power car is now not only back to life, but about 10% faster than before.

 

Ironically it is now the other HST power car (blue/grey Eastern Region from ND122h) which is causing problems. This is the power car which caused me more concern initially - more motor noise, lower speed for a given voltage etc. It has quietened down reasonably with running-in but doesn't match the performance of the resuscitated Executive PC. I have now found that after several minutes running with 8 light-bar fitted coaches and the dummy PC, the power car will slow down and stop without notice. When this happens all lights also go out - both on the power cars and the light bars in the coaching stock. Turning the controller off for a few seconds and restarting, the train will run again briefly, then slow down and stop as before. If I leave it turned off for longer, it will run for longer upon restarting, but eventually will slow down and stop. This happens when running in both directions. The motor gets warm, but not hot.

 

I have 3 DC controllers and this only happens with two of them: they are both locally purchased Australian controller/transformers "Powerline PR-TC Train Set Controller and Transformer". The erratic stopping doesn't happen with the 3rd controller which is the standard Bachmann/Graham Farish DC train set controller (ex "Merseyside Express"). The Powerline units are very similar to the Farish one in design - a separate transformer plugs into the power supply, which delivers 16V AC 1000 mA to the controller. The controller provides the variable rectified 0-12 V DC to the track. It is a basic controller with no feedback or PWM. I presume what is happening is that the current draw of the blue/grey power car, plus 8 light bars and the lights on the dummy PC is triggering the circuit breaker of the Powerline controller. This doesn't happen when I run the Executive PC with 10 light-bar fitted coaches and dummy on the same controller, nor if I run with blue/grey PC without the light-bar fitted stock. I don't have an ammeter to check (perhaps its time to buy one!).

 

From further Googling it now seems I may need to get access to the motor to clean or polish the commutator and maybe even de-grease the armature, to cure this high current draw. When I was a kid it was easy to do this on Hornby Ringfield and X03 motors! Has anybody got any experience of doing this in these Dapol motors? There are some forum posts about commutator polishing which talk about milling the motor block to gain access   http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=11186.msg139817#msg139817

 

Any suggestions welcomed! Of course I can run it OK with the Farish controller but the plan is eventually to move over to DCC, so I'd like to get the motor sorted out before then - plus I'm sure it won't do the motor good in the long run if I keep running it in this condition.

 

In other news I'm trying to figure out the best way to get matching roof colour across my Dapol HST fleet...

 

The joys!

Cheers,

 

Tom.

[Chris Higgs]

From further Googling it now seems I may need to get access to the motor to clean or polish the commutator and maybe even de-grease the armature, to cure this high current draw. When I was a kid it was easy to do this on Hornby Ringfield and X03 motors! Has anybody got any experience of doing this in these Dapol motors? There are some forum posts about commutator polishing which talk about milling the motor block to gain access   http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=11186.msg139817#msg139817

 

AH, those were the days! Easy motor access, but intolerable interference on your TV every time you ran your trains

 

Personally I think finding a replacement motor sounds easier than milling the block.

[jbqfc]

hi got a strange problem with a virgin HST it runs ok in one direction but in the other the amps max out and it will run but very slowly but dos not trip out the controler

thanks john

[Steven B]

If you unplug the body/lights from the chassis doe it run OK?

 

Happy Modelling

 

Steven B

[jbqfc]

If you unplug the body/lights from the chassis doe it run OK?

 

Happy Modelling

 

Steven B

no it's still the same

john

[philiprporter]

I'm wondering if anyone else has experienced haulage issues with their Dapol HSTs? I've managed to get hold of a brand new Virgin set and have run the power car in for an hour - no issues. However, couple it up to a rake of MK3s and it will only shift them (pushing or pulling) with much wheel spinning and no ability to get round even large radius curves.

 

I'm guessing it could be my track, but I couple up a Farish 87 to the rake and it pushes and pulls the whole lot no issues - the HST power car does seem rather lighter than the 87, but not massively so. Has anyone else experienced this and, if so, how did you overcome it? Do I need to think about retro-fitting traction tyres? There seems virtually no space for additional weight in the body?

 

Any suggestions much appreciated. Thanks, Phil.  

[andy stroud]

I'm wondering if anyone else has experienced haulage issues with their Dapol HSTs? I've managed to get hold of a brand new Virgin set and have run the power car in for an hour - no issues. However, couple it up to a rake of MK3s and it will only shift them (pushing or pulling) with much wheel spinning and no ability to get round even large radius curves.

 

I'm guessing it could be my track, but I couple up a Farish 87 to the rake and it pushes and pulls the whole lot no issues - the HST power car does seem rather lighter than the 87, but not massively so. Has anyone else experienced this and, if so, how did you overcome it? Do I need to think about retro-fitting traction tyres? There seems virtually no space for additional weight in the body?

 

Any suggestions much appreciated. Thanks, Phil.  

 

Shouldn't need traction tyres or extra weight. I have a full hst set and the power car moves it all along fine with no modifications.

[jdbsg65]

Hi

 

I have the same problem with my exec liveried hst. However the first great western one I have behaves fine. If anyone has fixed this issue I wpuld be interested to know how.

[Dr Al]

Check if it runs ok without the dummy class 43. If so, then it's wheel (flange) drag on the dummy - this is common as they can rub on the chassis undersides - I've opened up the base of the plastic chassis where the wheels are on some.

 

Otherwise, the power car should pull a full rake fine - all mine do - check for dragging wheelsets or suchlike on the coaches.

Cheers,

Alan

[philiprporter]

Thanks for the help everyone. I've managed to sort the problem now. Some clown had removed the wheelsets from the front bogie and then reinstalled them the wrong way round. This had me puzzled because there was just enough 'mesh' to have them turn on the work bench under power and have me scratching my head, but under load on the layout they slip and fail to mesh fully, hence the lack of haulage power, as only one bogie was being powered properly. Swapped them out and put them back the right way and all is good.

 

So much for the "brand new and unused" description on a well known auction site!! Thankfully I paid a sensible price rather than a "brand new and unused" price! I have to confess to being suspicious when the set arrived and the L shaped plastic clip that holds the power car in place on new Dapol HST sets was holding a MK3 coach in place! Buyer beware and a lesson learned!

[Chris Higgs]

Thanks for the help everyone. I've managed to sort the problem now. Some clown had removed the wheelsets from the front bogie and then reinstalled them the wrong way round. This had me puzzled because there was just enough 'mesh' to have them turn on the work bench under power and have me scratching my head, but under load on the layout they slip and fail to mesh fully, hence the lack of haulage power, as only one bogie was being powered properly. Swapped them out and put them back the right way and all is good.

 

So much for the "brand new and unused" description on a well known auction site!! Thankfully I paid a sensible price rather than a "brand new and unused" price! I have to confess to being suspicious when the set arrived and the L shaped plastic clip that holds the power car in place on new Dapol HST sets was holding a MK3 coach in place! Buyer beware and a lesson learned!

 

So Dapol have a right and wrong way to put the wheels in? hardly inspiring design. Pretty sure with Farish you cannot get it wrong.

[mikeharvey22]

I have a few continental models where there is a right and wrong way to put in the geared wheel for optimum mesh. 0.5mm can make a difference in N.

[philiprporter]

I have a few continental models where there is a right and wrong way to put in the geared wheel for optimum mesh. 0.5mm can make a difference in N.

Yes and it is in that region - about 0.5mm or less - meshes and turns the wheels when upside down on the workbench and on the layout when not pulling or pushing anything, add a few coaches and the mesh isn't sufficient to drive the wheels properly. This isn't a Dapol issue, its a joker on a well known auction site having tinkered with something they don't fully understand and then trying to pass it off as "new and unused" - and give me Dapol gears any day over Farish and all the splitting issues!

[Chris Higgs]

Yes and it is in that region - about 0.5mm or less - meshes and turns the wheels when upside down on the workbench and on the layout when not pulling or pushing anything, add a few coaches and the mesh isn't sufficient to drive the wheels properly. This isn't a Dapol issue, its a joker on a well known auction site having tinkered with something they don't fully understand and then trying to pass it off as "new and unused" - and give me Dapol gears any day over Farish and all the splitting issues!

 

Given its quite subtle and difficult to notice, how do you know it wasn't just someone having a bad day in the factory? I never trust what it says on ebay to be honest, and I would prefer a model to have been at least tested, rather than sold as never having been out of its box. People are expected to lubricate their models and some manufacturers pack their gears with horrible goo that needs removing by taking the wheels out, or even the whole bogie. So I'll stick with criticising manufacturers who make something that the average man in the street is expected to maintain but that you have to be very cerfaul with to get it right.

 

If the gears were sufficiantly offset, then putting them in reversed would result in something clearly wrong. Making them subtly off-centre is just asking for trouble.

[RandyWales]

Hi all...

BR Intercity 125 Blue/Grey HST 4-car bookset now available from Dapol, Hattons and no doubt many others.

Randall

[richierich]

Does anyone have a list of the Dapol HSTs produced so far?

 

I’m trying to establish which releases represent BR Eastern region HSTs. 

[njee20]

Here you go. 

[AndrueC]

I have a few issues with my EMR version (bought November 2020) and am considering sending it back to be 'adjusted'.

 

* It runs forward when it should run in reverse. I can fix this by reprogramming the decoder but it's a bit of a pain because it resets every time it derails. And that's a common occurrence because:

* It won't run reliably in reverse. In fact it pretty much can't go round any of my curves or turnouts in reverse. Unfortunately this matters because I park all my trains in sidings that require the trains to reverse out and navigate several curves and turnouts to get onto the main line. I think the problem is that the front copper pickups are too far apart leading to the bogey pickups dropping between them then resisting being straightened.

* Seems to be excessively lubricated. It's getting better over time but when I first got it it was practically leaving a trail of slime in its wake. It would only run for ten minutes then would start to stutter. Running any other loco after it caused that loco to stutter.