Dapol Class 21/29

[adb968008]

Class 29's stand alone as being uniquely "Scottish"

 

​

Class 06

[Roy Langridge]

Class 06

Apart from the one at Reading?

 

Roy

[adb968008]

Apart from the one at Reading?

 

Roy

 

That was a 97/8 by then :-)

 

How about D2/1 D2/10 ? Did they escape Scotland before industrial use ?

Otherwise I'm out of ideas of Pure never been south of Scotland types.

Edited December 28, 2017 by adb968008

[Roy Langridge]

That was a 97/8 by then :-)

Whilst agreeing in principle, it did still carry 06003 for a number of weeks at Reading before taking up its departmental number.

 

Roy

[Bob Reid]

Err - unless others know better:

 

 

When new, D6100-9 were allocated to 34B Hornsey, D6110-9 to 30A Stratford and D6120-37 to 32B Ipswich. D6127 delivered new on 06/10/1959, to Scotland (Eastfield 65A) on 07/05/1960. The last 20 of the class were delivered new to Kittybrewster. In 1960 they were all transferred to Scotland, some from 1963 returning to Paxman at Colchester for new engines and became Class 29.

 

Paul

 

Perhaps if you read what I posted in response to Stewart you wouldn't be posting smart a%)_ comments. 

Edited December 28, 2017 by Bob-65b

[Ian Smeeton]

Whilst agreeing in principle, it did still carry 06003 for a number of weeks at Reading before taking up its departmental number.

 

Roy

 

When I last saw it, it was at Eastfield, numbered 206 003 (at least on one side)

 

Regards

 

Ian

[PaulG]

D6127 went to 34B, it was D6138 that was the first to go straight to a Scottish shed when it was allocated to Edinburgh (St Margaret's) The remainder went to Aberdeen (Kittybrewster).

 

My post perhaps badly written:  Data from Loco Illustrated 197, when new "D6100-9 (34B) Hornsey, D6110-9 (30A) Stratford, D6120-37 (32B) Ipswich and D6138-57 (61A) Kittybrewster."  My reference to D6127 was the date it was moved from Ipswich to Scotland (my interest is the GE), but according to the LI its first allocation was Ipswich. I have read that due to the problems the GN Section had with the first 10, the next batch were dumped onto the GE Section and to try and resolve the problems all the class were ultimately shipped off to Scotland.

 

​Paul

[stewartingram]

Perhaps if you read what I posted in response to Stewart you wouldn't be posting smart a%)_ comments. 

 

Perhaps if you read my initial post....?

Class 21 and 26 were INTRODUCED to the ER, class 27 were INTRODUCED to the LMR.

 

Stewart

[Clive Mortimore]

Diesels blend better.

 

I can stick a 17 with a 20/24/5/6/7/31/37/40/45/46/47/50 and that’s a Scottish one.

I can stick a 33 with 14/5/6/20/24/5/6/7/31/35/37/40/42/3/5/6/7/50/52

That’s lots of national overlap. (Of the above the only odd one I couldn’t place with either was a 44).

To represent either geography, I just need to reposition 2-3 locos, even then I can still have an excuse for an off territory visitor.

 

A lot of Scottish steam classes are obscure small fleets, and the few that were preserved aren’t very well represented in preservation and even less ever wandered south of the border, before or after preservation, indeed I think Scottish steam, I think HR103, 673 Maude and Caley 828. I think of Scottish steam in BR days I think A4’s, 2p, 2mt, Black 5’, K1,2,3,4, B1, BR stds, all of which have South of the border links.

Maybe I need educating, but i’m Probably not alone.

Class 44s would venture to Tinsley and surrounding area so could /might have rubbed shoulders with Claytons.

 

Class 44s where to been seen at Peterborough, not too sure if they would be present when SR Cromptons were whizzing up to York with that cement train. Gloucester is another potential but more unlikely meeting place for a 33 and a Peak.

 

You can also add Baby Deltics and (grown up) Deltics to the list of BRCW type 3s again that cement train on the ECML.

 

Oddly you don't seem to have added 21s and 29s to the Clayton list. Or 55s not only in Edinburgh but the Newcastle area.

[Bob Reid]

Stewart - what I'm saying is the Scottish allocation of NBL type 2's to the region had always been part of the order from the NBL having never seen the ER - whether the first numbered of the same class went to the ER is neither here nor there - the ER never having any with (if I'm not mistaken) blue-star multiple working or tablet catchers.  

​Whilst the pilot scheme BRCW Type 2's went to the ER the first production loco's followed straight on with D5320 to 64H on the Scottish Region and the first of the class 27's - D5347 to 62A - again the Scottish Region, the  NER getting there's next followed by the LM a year after the ScR batch.  

​To say these were not "Scottish" loco's is I'm afraid not true - they were not hand me downs from other regions but allocated there from new.

[Mad McCann]

Diesels blend better.

I can stick a 17 with a 20/24/5/6/7/31/37/40/45/46/47/50 and that’s a Scottish one.

I can stick a 33 with 14/5/6/20/24/5/6/7/31/35/37/40/42/3/5/6/7/50/52

That’s lots of national overlap. (Of the above the only odd one I couldn’t place with either was a 44).

To represent either geography, I just need to reposition 2-3 locos, even then I can still have an excuse for an off territory visitor.

A lot of Scottish steam classes are obscure small fleets, and the few that were preserved aren’t very well represented in preservation and even less ever wandered south of the border, before or after preservation, indeed I think Scottish steam, I think HR103, 673 Maude and Caley 828. I think of Scottish steam in BR days I think A4’s, 2p, 2mt, Black 5’, K1,2,3,4, B1, BR stds, all of which have South of the border links.

Maybe I need educating, but i’m Probably not alone.

“Obscure small fleets...”

 

What? As opposed to the massed ranks of Adams Radials and 1361 Panniers..?

 

D4

[The Stationmaster]

Stewart - what I'm saying is the Scottish allocation of NBL type 2's to the region had always been part of the order from the NBL having never seen the ER - whether the first numbered of the same class went to the ER is neither here nor there - the ER never having any with (if I'm not mistaken) blue-star multiple working or tablet catchers.  

 

​Whilst the pilot scheme BRCW Type 2's went to the ER the first production loco's followed straight on with D5320 to 64H on the Scottish Region and the first of the class 27's - D5347 to 62A - again the Scottish Region, the  NER getting there's next followed by the LM a year after the ScR batch.  

 

​To say these were not "Scottish" loco's is I'm afraid not true - they were not hand me downs from other regions but allocated there from new.

 

From what I recall reading some years back the reason the Pilot Scheme loco went to the London area was to help in getting dieselisation underway more rapidly in London, particularly on the GN suburban service.Hence the classes were introduced in England and possibly even as an accident of policy or pressure from particular Regions.  Ultimate allocation of, particularly the NBL locos, seems to confirm that they were very likely intended all along for Scotland once the main order proceeded in that direction.

 

And as you've said the Class 29 version was very much a Scottish loco (and quite a nice one on which to ride and which seemed reasonably reliable according to Enginemen on the West Highland extension).

[Mad McCann]

That’s a fair appraisal of the re-engineered NBLs Mike. I believe that ultimately they were damned only by the small number of conversions set against the emerging logic of the National Traction Plan. Shame really as the power plant ultimately found itself improved/evolved and dropped into HSTs a decade later.

 

D4

[Phil Bullock]

Class 44s would venture to Tinsley and surrounding area so could /might have rubbed shoulders with Claytons.

 

Class 44s where to been seen at Peterborough, not too sure if they would be present when SR Cromptons were whizzing up to York with that cement train. Gloucester is another potential but more unlikely meeting place for a 33 and a Peak.

 

You can also add Baby Deltics and (grown up) Deltics to the list of BRCW type 3s again that cement train on the ECML.

 

Oddly you don't seem to have added 21s and 29s to the Clayton list. Or 55s not only in Edinburgh but the Newcastle area.

 

I'd put my money on a class 33/44 coming together at Saltley - 33s on Fawley - Bomfords, 44s regulars from Toton

 

Phil

[adb968008]

I'd put my money on a class 33/44 coming together at Saltley - 33s on Fawley - Bomfords, 44s regulars from Toton

 

Phil

Maybe this is a challenge for the real world photos thread... a 33 and 44 together, outside of Preservation.

(I’m sure ive gór one ar a BR openday, probably Coalville, but that doesnt count).

[Downendian]

Bit off track for class 21/29 but can I join in?

If class 44 workings to Severn tunnel junction can be verified in the early/ mid 1970s, then they would have possibly met there. The Fawley-Penarth curve was worked as far as STJ by a 33 where it was detached and replaced for a 37 onward. The 33 was then stabled on the depot before working back to the South Coast.

Neil

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

From what I recall reading some years back the reason the Pilot Scheme loco went to the London area was to help in getting dieselisation underway more rapidly in London, particularly on the GN suburban service.Hence the classes were introduced in England and possibly even as an accident of policy or pressure from particular Regions...

 Living in the KX (GN) inner sub area the term 'accident' is a good description. This service went from all steam to all diesel in two years, August 1958 to September 1960, and it didn't look well planned to the customers.

 

Method. Gleaning from talks and articles by the railway staff involved, I have formed an opinion that the original plan was that the Cravens DMUs (105) and EE type 2 (23) would do the job: DMUs for inner suburban and stopping outer suburban, the EE type 2 for the faster outer suburban runs.

 

Experiment. When the DMU's began to be delivered in August 58 it was found that they couldn't do the job in rush hour, insufficient capacity, and the prospects of the EE type 2 were not looking too promising even before delivery. So by year end 58 there were additionally 'borrowed' BRCW type 2 (26/0) and NBL type 2 (21) both classes intended for Scotland; and Brush type 2 (30) from the GE section. As 1959 progressed more 26/0s and 30s were borrowed. During the summer it was found that the diesel that could do the traction job was the EE type 1 but there was no way of getting steam heat on that unit.

 

Outcome. The Brush 2 emerged as the 'winner' (least unsuccessful!) on the resulting casualty strewn field, and these began to be delivered at end 59 enabling the borrowed diesels to be sent off to their originally intended destinations, and the areas N2, N7 and L1 steam classes to be steadily sent away for scrapping. (The B1s lasted a little longer, standing in for expired diesels.)

 

Conclusion. Until electrification the 105s were worked on until they were made into poor tools instead of unreliable, and rattled away on off-peak suburban, the 30s became 31s as the original clapped Mirrlees units were replaced with EE power in the mid sixties, the 23s were self withdrawn (broken) from passenger service by about end 61, and never really allowed back on even when rebuilt by EE, and were then early scrapping candidates as a tiny class of ten with a poor reputation to boot.

[spackz]

From Richard @ Dapol Digest today.

 

 

I mentioned last month that these models were in the toolroom, and now I am pleased to report that the factory has advised me that first shots are due around the middle of February, so we should have the first EP (engineering pilot) to view at Ally Pally at the end of March. Kind Regards, Richard.

 

Getting closer.

[Covkid]

I'd put my money on a class 33/44 coming together at Saltley - 33s on Fawley - Bomfords, 44s regulars from Toton

 

Phil

 

 

Morso in Washwood Heath yard adjacent to the Bromford Bridge oil depot.

Class 33s worked their oil into Washwood Heath (aka Bromford) whilst class 44s worked in and out of the yard on trains to / from Toton.

Most definately rubbing shoulders

[ScRSG]

D1 to D10 worked to , at least Perth, early in their lives when they were allocated to "Midland Lines"

[Andrew F]

D1 to D10 worked to , at least Perth, early in their lives when they were allocated to "Midland Lines"

That's something I've not seen on a Scot's layout; an all green snub noser with discs.  

[ScRSG]

Well, you might when we finish Larbert!

 

There is good evidence of this on video and various other sources such as D10 noted at Perth on 4/60 from Railway Magazine and D3 noted on Perth shed on 27 March 1961.

[Ian Hargrave]

D1 to D10 worked to , at least Perth, early in their lives when they were allocated to "Midland Lines"

 

At that time,they worked the WCML and were allocated to 1B Camden. Transfer to Toton and work on Midland freight work came a little later.

[Chris Higgs]

At that time,they worked the WCML and were allocated to 1B Camden. Transfer to Toton and work on Midland freight work came a little later.

 

According to this page: https://www.derbysulzers.com/class44.html

 

"One particular working associated with the Class on the WCML was the 7.45am Crewe - Euston. They would also be frequently found on the Euston - Blackpool & Crewe - Perth workings. On the Perth working there was a fill-in turn to Aberdeen, coming back with the 02.15am fish, or a passenger turn if it was Saturday. Although mostly an English Electric Type 4 turn, this did provide the sight of an occasional BR/Sulzer Type 4 at Aberdeen. During August Type 4's also starting working through to Glasgow Central on WCML passenger services from Carlisle."

[adb968008]

Oh..

 

So were looking for a 44 with a 17 or a 44 with a 33, in BR ownership...