Station Pilot - What Does it Do?

[GaryHN]

A regular 08 shunt move occurred at Preston when the Liverpool-Edinburgh and Manchester-Glasgow trains were combined between there and Carstairs.

The Manc would usually arrive in P3, the Liverpool in P2. Both sections would detach their 47's at the northern end,with the sparky going on the front of the Manc portion. An 08 would attach to the rear of the Liverpool half and do a quick shunt out and back at the south of the station - all passengers still on board. I must admit to using this service once or twice between P2 and P3........

 

At Carstairs, the Edin-Liverpool would run north of the station and then shunt back onto the Glas-Manc section, already in the other platform. This move was usually accomplished at *good* speeds!

 

 

 

 

 

Likewise, the Preston-London sleeper would be attached to the Barrow-London by using an 08 at about 0130 - I certainly slept through it once.

 

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

 

This move happend on all the trains which split at Carstairs also one of the splits was The Highland Cheiften, Which has a funny rake with one portion coming from Glasgow and the other coming from Inverness with one of the Mk3's converted to have a brake compartment,

and also had some moves like this arround Mossend yard with the sleeper trains, and I think at Carlisle and Crewe some trains got sleeper cars added to the train.

 

Gary

[TheSignalEngineer]

In the early 1960's the Ilfracombe portion of the summer Saturday train to Birmingham would arrive in the bay at Taunton, while the Minehead portion ran into the Up Relief platform. The portion from the Bay was then shunted by the Pilot with passengers still aboard out of the station and onto the back of the portion in the through platform.

 

Loaded sleeping cars were shunted by an 08 at New St for the combining the Bristol(Plymouth?)/Poole-Glasgow service in the 1980's.

[The Stationmaster]

In the early 1960's the Ilfracombe portion of the summer Saturday train to Birmingham would arrive in the bay at Taunton, while the Minehead portion ran into the Up Relief platform. The portion from the Bay was then shunted by the Pilot with passengers still aboard out of the station and onto the back of the portion in the through platform.

 

 

This sort of thing is in many ways a sad loss from our railway scene - far more interesting to watch than a couple of dmus coupling together

 

I can remember on several occasions when returning from family visits to Yorkshire we boarded the train south in some apparently most unlikely platforms at York. Joining in one of the south end bays behind the engine which was to work the train forward after an engine change clearly made sense - and you didn't have to fight so hard for a seat! But on one occasion we joined the York 'portion' in one of the Scarborough bays and commenced our ride to London behind a J72 heading towards Scarborough before being propelled onto the back of the train in platform 8 - now that really was proper railway work.

 

 

 

[Andy W]

In the early 1960's the Ilfracombe portion of the summer Saturday train to Birmingham would arrive in the bay at Taunton, while the Minehead portion ran into the Up Relief platform. The portion from the Bay was then shunted by the Pilot with passengers still aboard out of the station and onto the back of the portion in the through platform.

 

Loaded sleeping cars were shunted by an 08 at New St for the combining the Bristol(Plymouth?)/Poole-Glasgow service in the 1980's.

 

I can remember arriving in the bay at Taunton on an Ilfracombe portion while going home to Birmingham from a family holiday, and also waiting for simply ages there while a Large Prairie was sent to rescue the failed D63xx on the Minehead portion. Could a vague memory I have of being banked past Bristol Stapleton Road by a Hymek be linked to this trip?

 

A couple of decades later, there was a working I used a few times on a Sunday evening where a single Mark 2 TSO was removed from the back of the last Glasgow-Birmingham of the day at Crewe by a Class 08, and shunted (complete with passengers) onto the last Liverpool-Euston. This provided a later service from the North to several stations - I could certainly leave Preston about an hour-and-a-half later to get home to Milton Keynes Central by using it. Quite a jerky ride being propelled by the 08 as I remember.

[TheSignalEngineer]

I can remember arriving in the bay at Taunton on an Ilfracombe portion while going home to Birmingham from a family holiday, and also waiting for simply ages there while a Large Prairie was sent to rescue the failed D63xx on the Minehead portion. Could a vague memory I have of being banked past Bristol Stapleton Road by a Hymek be linked to this trip?

 

Quite possibly, Taunton frequently turned out a Manor for holiday trains to Birmingham. They striggled a bit sometimes and on one occasion we had the Stratford Pilot coupled GW style inside the train engine through to Earlswood Lakes

[D1072]

Plymouth Station Pilots

- Origionally (and certainly up to the introduction of Mk3 slepers in 1983), the Plymouth portion for the sleeper was formed BG, BG, SLC, SLC. The SLCs were normally W2419/31/32.

The loco(s), invariably class 50 during the 80s, detatched from the up sleeper which had arrived from Penzance on Platform 7, ran back onto 8 to pickup the portion and shunted it, with sleeping (?) passengers onto the front. I travelled this way in 1978 (but being 11 was far too excited to get much sleep behind 50016 + 50039).

 

I do not know what the involvement of the station pilot was at this time.

 

Later (1990's) an 08 (not the station pilot, but on of the Laira carriage shunters, often 08641/45) hauled a single SLEP onto PL8 where it was coupled up to the shore supply. I believe the 08 then shunted the sleeper onto the Rear of the up Night Riviera (and that it could have been the last 08 passenger shunt).

More recently, in the class 57 period, the loco has once again come off the stock to collect a single sleeper and attach it to the front.

 

As for the "real" station pilot 08 (headcode 0B01 apparently), it spent most of its time at the east end of the station, and before the end of parcels traffic was busy removing loaded rakes of 10 vans to and from Platforms 2 & 3 to either park sidings behind platform 8, or onto the middle road. Occasionally it would go to Platform 2 west end bay if there was a Motorail GUV to be removed from the end loading dock (cars had to drive over the main pedestrian access to teh platforms and past the REd Star parcels office to get to teh road)

 

Earlier (pre HST) when portions were detached from most Cornish trains, the 08 removed the portion from the rear, shunting it into the middle road before a type 4 removed it to Laira. Eastbound portions were shunted on by the train engine.

 

I think the last aattach/ detatching work would have ben with the 1S71 Penzance-Aberdeen which brought up the Plymouth Sleeper empties (they went all teh way to PZ on teh down train). With teh station pilot having detached the sleepers & BGs, 4 more coaches were added to the rear (by hte loc which had brought them in from Laira) to make up a 13 coach rake. THis loco then took the Sleeper portion to laira, whilst the 08 went to the east end, perhaps to shunt a van on/off the Swindon - Penzance

 

I have only seen one instance, 08953, bringing a complete rake of coaches from Laira, in this case to the middle road.

The final job for an 08 at Plymouth would be (and perhaps still is!) to deliver and retrieve HST power cars to replace a failure - requiring one of the HST coupling fitted ones.

 

In steam days, with track layouts with few facing points, there would have been much more shunting to get ECS / vans / portions into the right places

Also, carriages were often cleaned in carriage sidings, not at the platform

 

INVERNESS

I don't know if this was unusual, but during my 1 week "Freedom of Scotland" railrover tour in August 86 I was on the last train back from Thurso / Wick (one of 37418/19/21 I think), which instead of arrival at the far north platforms 5/6/7 went straight on at Rose St box, past the shed, then backed in to the "main" platforms - under the semaphore gantry - wonderful! Probably a move to release the 37 to shed without needing a pilot.

[luckymucklebackit]

Until the introduction of Pendilinos and Voyagers, the Glasgow Central Pilot would be an 86, 87 or 90 fresh out of Glasgow Works and as such in immaculate condition. It could usually be seen stabled in platform 11A, and a regular daytime job was to propel the Motorail loading/unloading vehicle into place, as seen here.

 

 

Jim

[9C85]

On 27/11/2010 at 17:39, Rivercider said:

Bristol Temple Meads had 2 station pilots when I worked in Bristol TOPS 1978-1985. Both pilots were dual braked Class 08 shunters.

One was the East End pilot, and as well as shunting stock and parcel vans as previously described also shunted Bristol NCL depot, and

worked trips to Kingsland Road Yard and Barton Hill Shops. The other pilot (the West End pilot) also shunted Pylle Hill sidings and worked trips to

Malago Vale carriage sidings. Both pilots were semi-permanently attached to BR freight brake vans (TOPS code CAR), which I understood

was to help activate track circuits when out running mainline, also acting as shunters trucks and accomodation.

One one occasion on a saturday morning one of the vans that had been performing that duty for some time was required to go for repair or maintenance.

The pilot was parked up outside our office on the High Level sidings behind Bristol Panel Box building, and we watched as the contents were transferred into the replacement van.

As well as the obvious shunters poles, hand and tail lamps there was various papers, books, magazines and an armchair! I remember some one

in the office joking that next would probably be a standard lamp!

 

 

I remember visiting BTM in the late 70s/early 80s and wondering why a brake van was attached to the 08 (08 900 IIRC?). The layout I am building is a carriage sidings set in the 80s and I am wondering if my 08 needs a van attached to collect/deliver coaches from the off-scene station.  I have been using a Class 31 for ECS duties but it is not of the right era  (Dutch livery) so it's on eBay now. I suppose it depends upon how far away I 'imagine ' the station to be?

[96701]

1 hour ago, 9C85 said:

I remember visiting BTM in the late 70s/early 80s and wondering why a brake van was attached to the 08 (08 900 IIRC?). The layout I am building is a carriage sidings set in the 80s and I am wondering if my 08 needs a van attached to collect/deliver coaches from the off-scene station.  I have been using a Class 31 for ECS duties but it is not of the right era  (Dutch livery) so it's on eBay now. I suppose it depends upon how far away I 'imagine ' the station to be?

Was it a barrier vehicle with a buckeye to make it easier to couple to coach rakes?

 

[Rivercider]

1 hour ago, 9C85 said:

I remember visiting BTM in the late 70s/early 80s and wondering why a brake van was attached to the 08 (08 900 IIRC?). The layout I am building is a carriage sidings set in the 80s and I am wondering if my 08 needs a van attached to collect/deliver coaches from the off-scene station.  I have been using a Class 31 for ECS duties but it is not of the right era  (Dutch livery) so it's on eBay now. I suppose it depends upon how far away I 'imagine ' the station to be?

 

08900 was a Bath Road allocated loco back then, and often worked as one of the Temple Meads pilots. Class 08 locos with a brake van semi-permanently attached seemed to be a bit of a Bristol peculiarity. I would say if you want to use a class 08 for ecs moves, and add a brake van then go ahead.

Class 31s were also used for ecs moves, eg the 07.00 Newcastle - Bristol inter-city working was taken to Malago Vale by a class 31, not the train loco,

08900 (and brake van) shunts vans from the NCL depot at Temple Meads Goods. 10/5/80.

 

31422 on the Up Middle Siding at Temple Meads with ecs and vans for Malago Vale. 17/1/80.

 

cheers

 

[Edwin_m]

1 hour ago, Rivercider said:

 

08900 was a Bath Road allocated loco back then, and often worked as one of the Temple Meads pilots. Class 08 locos with a brake van semi-permanently attached seemed to be a bit of a Bristol peculiarity. I would say if you want to use a class 08 for ecs moves, and add a brake van then go ahead.

 

Class 03 and 04, which often worked as station pilots, were generally coupled to flat wagons for track circuit actuation purposes but I've never heard of that being necessary for an 08.  Perhaps the signaling at Temple Meads was particularly susceptible to "losing" short wheelbase locomotives?  

[9C85]

2 hours ago, Rivercider said:

 

08900 was a Bath Road allocated loco back then, and often worked as one of the Temple Meads pilots. Class 08 locos with a brake van semi-permanently attached seemed to be a bit of a Bristol peculiarity. I would say if you want to use a class 08 for ecs moves, and add a brake van then go ahead.

Class 31s were also used for ecs moves, eg the 07.00 Newcastle - Bristol inter-city working was taken to Malago Vale by a class 31, not the train loco,

08900 (and brake van) shunts vans from the NCL depot at Temple Meads Goods. 10/5/80.

 

31422 on the Up Middle Siding at Temple Meads with ecs and vans for Malago Vale. 17/1/80.

 

cheers

 

That's great of you to post and I am pretty chuffed that I can remember the 08 forty odd years after my one spotting trip to Temple Meads.   My layout is influenced by places like Malago Vale and Red Bank in Manchester, but a totally freelance track plan. I suppose picking up and dropping off a brake van for trips to the station would add operational interest, plus I might throw in a trip working of a tanker or two for the diesel fuelling point I have incorporated .

[Rivercider]

55 minutes ago, Edwin_m said:

Class 03 and 04, which often worked as station pilots, were generally coupled to flat wagons for track circuit actuation purposes but I've never heard of that being necessary for an 08.  Perhaps the signaling at Temple Meads was particularly susceptible to "losing" short wheelbase locomotives?  

At the time I worked in Bristol TOPS I thought the main reason for the brake van was for the shunters to ride in, as the west end pilot also worked out to Pylle Hill, and down to Malago Vale, while the east end pilot worked as far as Kingsland Road.  On another thread some time ago I learned that it was to do with track circuits in the Temple Meads area, though I distinctly remember seeing  class 08s working without a brake van (at weekends) and found one or two photos to prove it - I assume the regular loco was in Bath Road for fuel and exam and a replacement was supplied to make a shunt or two.

Here are the two pilots shut down, with their brake vans, I have posted this before elsewhere.

 

08218 (east end) and 08644 (west end) are seen stabled for the weekend outside Temple Meads Goods. 5/1/80.

Edited April 5, 2020 by Rivercider
spelling

[Rivercider]

2 minutes ago, 9C85 said:

That's great of you to post and I am pretty chuffed that I can remember the 08 forty odd years after my one spotting trip to Temple Meads.   My layout is influenced by places like Malago Vale and Red Bank in Manchester, but a totally freelance track plan. I suppose picking up and dropping off a brake van for trips to the station would add operational interest, plus I might throw in a trip working of a tanker or two for the diesel fuelling point I have incorporated .

Have you seen the 'Parsons Vale carriage sidings' thread by 37114 (Rob Owst)?

It is inspired by Malago Vale, but other contributors have found photos of other stock which add operational interest. I remembered the 'muck trucks', but there were also tanks of oil for the train heating boiler, and for wagons scrap brake blocks,

 

cheers  

[Phil Bullock]

On 27/11/2010 at 18:01, Baby Deltic said:

 

D8234 features in a few shots as station pilot at Liverpool Street. A variety of loco types were used as station pilots at Kings Cross. Class 15, 24 and 31 seem to have been the most common.

 

Here we go..from Brush Veteran's excellent collection. Always seemed to be there when I visited 69/70 - and her tenure went well back before that looking at other photos...

 

 

 

[9C85]

21 minutes ago, Rivercider said:

Have you seen the 'Parsons Vale carriage sidings' thread by 37114 (Rob Owst)?

It is inspired by Malago Vale, but other contributors have found photos of other stock which add operational interest. I remembered the 'muck trucks', but there were also tanks of oil for the train heating boiler, and for wagons scrap brake blocks,

 

cheers  

Yes I have, thanks. And it was one of the layouts I used as an influence.  Carriage sidings are, in my opinion, an ideal modelling subject.  Especially if you throw in parcels/newspaper traffic.  There's no need to have static passengers on platforms or in the trains,  and no doors to open to let the static passengers try to get on/off.  You can also switch in/out buffet cars, first class coaches, BGs depending upon the time of day. 

[The Stationmaster]

18 hours ago, Rivercider said:

At the time I worked in Bristol TOPS I thought the main reason for the brake van was for the shunters to ride in, as the west end pilot also worked out to Pylle Hill, and down to Malago Vale, while the east end pilot worked as far as Kingsland Road.  On another thread some time ago I learned that it was to do with track circuits in the Temple Meads area, though I distinctly remember seeing  class 08s working without a brake van (at weekends) and found one or two photos to prove it - I assume the regular loco was in Bath Road for fuel and exam and a replacement was supplied to make a shunt or two.

Here are the two pilots shut down, with their brake vans, I have posted this before elsewhere.

 

08218 (east end) and 08644 (west end) are seen stabled for the weekend outside Temple Meads Goods. 5/1/80.

Two different situations at Temple Meads.   

 

1. Prior to resignalling in 1970 diesel shunting locomotives working singly were not permitted to pass over any lines with colour light signalling worked from Temple Meads East or West Signal Boxes but had to have a vacuum braked vehicle, with automatic brake operative, attached to them.

2. Following the 1970 resignalling that requirement no longer applied so presumably any attached brakevan was basically there as a 'Shunters' Truck' with suitable accommodation for any Shunter(s) travelling to/from other locations at which the pilots worked.

Edited April 6, 2020 by The Stationmaster

[9C85]

On 06/04/2020 at 15:14, The Stationmaster said:

Two different situations at Temple Meads.   

 

1. Prior to resignalling in 1970 diesel shunting locomotives working singly were not permitted to pass over any lines with colour light signalling worked from Temple Meads East or West Signal Boxes but had to have a vacuum braked vehicle, with automatic brake operative, attached to them.

2. Following the 1970 resignalling that requirement no longer applied so presumably any attached brakevan was basically there as a 'Shunters' Truck' with suitable accommodation for any Shunter(s) travelling to/from other locations at which the pilots worked.

 

That photo is so good, I thought it was a model :-)

[9C85]

On 05/04/2020 at 21:09, Rivercider said:

At the time I worked in Bristol TOPS I thought the main reason for the brake van was for the shunters to ride in, as the west end pilot also worked out to Pylle Hill, and down to Malago Vale, while the east end pilot worked as far as Kingsland Road.  On another thread some time ago I learned that it was to do with track circuits in the Temple Meads area, though I distinctly remember seeing  class 08s working without a brake van (at weekends) and found one or two photos to prove it - I assume the regular loco was in Bath Road for fuel and exam and a replacement was supplied to make a shunt or two.

Here are the two pilots shut down, with their brake vans, I have posted this before elsewhere.

 

08218 (east end) and 08644 (west end) are seen stabled for the weekend outside Temple Meads Goods. 5/1/80.

As I have mentioned previously, my layout is a carriage/parcels sidings, so I could use one of my 4 wheeled CCT vans to accompany the 08 onto the main line. I wonder if it would need to be identifiable as 'Internal use only' or 'Return to X yard' so as not to get whisked away on a parcels train? Anyone know of any similar situationsearches? Thanks 

[EddieK]

In January 1984, I ventured from Birmingham New Street to Norwich behind a Class 31. Once the passengers were off the train, the Class 03 station pilot + match wagon (03084 that day) hauled the stock out of the station to release the 31, then propelled them back in again, then uncoupled and moved out of the way to allow the 31 back on. By the time the train from New Street arrived in the afternoon, ready to form my chosen train home, I had already got chatting to the driver of the 03 pilot, and any suggestion that I was allowed to drive the pilot so as to release the 31 ready for my train home may have some basis in the truth....

 

One of the (then Arriva) Guards at Chester that I knew, once mentioned about a game at Crewe relating to the Class 25 hauled trains from Cardiff that terminated in a south end bay. This involved hopping aboard the empty stock while the 08 dragged it out of the station to release the 25. One way of underlining an 08 in the haulage book, I suppose.

 

Back at New Street in the mid 1980s, I recall Tyseley had one or two 08s painted in pseudo-heritage livery to serve as station pilots. I think their main duties involved the parcels vans in the bays alongside Platform 12.

 

When I used to go spotting at King's Cross in the pre-HST era, I cannot recall the use of a station pilot loco as such. Incoming trains typically detached the loco and left it by the buffers, while another loco would leave the loco fuelling point to take the train out again. I believe there were Class 31s used to drag ECS away from KX to Ferme Park or Bounds Green, but seeing as these went a few miles away from the station, these don't count as station pilots....

[keefer]

20 hours ago, 9C85 said:

As I have mentioned previously, my layout is a carriage/parcels sidings, so I could use one of my 4 wheeled CCT vans to accompany the 08 onto the main line. I wonder if it would need to be identifiable as 'Internal use only' or 'Return to X yard' so as not to get whisked away on a parcels train? Anyone know of any similar situationsearches? Thanks 

I don't think it would be internal user, as IIRC this was only used for vehicles that, for whatever reason, were not allowed out on the main line. They were usually parked up stationary somewhere but if they were 'mobile' then it would be within the confines of a depot/yard.

I don't know if any of the vans used were branded - possibly not, as I'd have thought that if they were necessary for the job, everyone would be aware that they were not to be nicked for something else?

[keefer]

A couple of photos of brake vans being used at Bristol (in Dave F's photo thread):

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/85326-dave-fs-photos-ongoing-more-added-each-day/&do=findComment&comment=1778096

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/85326-dave-fs-photos-ongoing-more-added-each-day/&do=findComment&comment=1778782

 

As discussed before, comments mention the van was just for the shunter to ride in.

[9C85]

6 minutes ago, keefer said:

I don't think it would be internal user, as IIRC this was only used for vehicles that, for whatever reason, were not allowed out on the main line. They were usually parked up stationary somewhere but if they were 'mobile' then it would be within the confines of a depot/yard.

I don't know if any of the vans used were branded - possibly not, as I'd have thought that if they were necessary for the job, everyone would be aware that they were not to be nicked for something else?

You are probably right and I am over-thinking things. On that subject, I believe that the van should always be coupled to the nose end of the 08 (as in the photos earlier in this thread)? . At least that way the visibility from the cab is unaffected. But there will be cases where the 08 is sandwiched between its van and the train it is dragging/propelling 

[Rivercider]

On 10/04/2020 at 14:19, 9C85 said:

You are probably right and I am over-thinking things. On that subject, I believe that the van should always be coupled to the nose end of the 08 (as in the photos earlier in this thread)? . At least that way the visibility from the cab is unaffected. But there will be cases where the 08 is sandwiched between its van and the train it is dragging/propelling 

I don't expect there was ever any rule about that, but as you have noticed the brake vans when coupled to yard or station pilots almost always appeared to be coupled to the nose end. 

If a class 08 was used for local trip work it would need to take a brake van, and this might be one end or the other, the Exeter area local trip pilot was an example from the 1980s,

08792 works a local trip of cement empties from Exeter Central to Riverside Yard and is seen passing through Exeter St Davids. 9/7/85

 

cheers

 

cheers   

[Coryton]

On 07/12/2010 at 14:07, D1072 said:

INVERNESS

I don't know if this was unusual, but during my 1 week "Freedom of Scotland" railrover tour in August 86 I was on the last train back from Thurso / Wick (one of 37418/19/21 I think), which instead of arrival at the far north platforms 5/6/7 went straight on at Rose St box, past the shed, then backed in to the "main" platforms - under the semaphore gantry - wonderful! Probably a move to release the 37 to shed without needing a pilot.

 

Replying to an ancient post I know, but...

 

I don't know if this was unsual either, but the one time I got the last train back from Thurso in the 37 days it did the same thing.

 

It was quite a journey - one of the coaches had no lighting on and the guard was happy for us to sit in it enojying the views of the stars without reflections from the window, and check our tickets with the light from his Bardic(?) lamp.