Station Pilot - What Does it Do?

[TheSignalEngineer]

Snow Hill pilot was usually a Grange or Hall. In addition to doing any shunting required around the station it also went to rescue trains stuck on the steep gradient through the tunnel, or went off as an assisting engine or substitute in case of failed engines.

This picture shows 6861 detaching from a parcels train in 1964/5 period.

[37605]

 

Dont think you've quite thought this one through, matey - if the train engine isnt allowed to shunt with passengers on board, why does that not apply to the pilot as well? I'm also a tad bemused as to why folk would get *onto* a train when its loco was going for refuelling...

 

 

I think engines are not allowed to push carriages with people on board, so the pilot is exempt because it's pulling.

[Guest stuartp]

aren't pilots also for running round duties (e.g.) a train pulls into a platform, stopping the engine at the buffer, people get on and off, the pilot pulls the carraige back off the point (because engines aren't allowed to shunt carraiges with passengers inside), now the point is clear the engine can go off through the relaese road to the MPD for refueling and the pilot returns to t's place

 

Certainly by the 1980s (i.e. when I learnt the Rules) you weren't allowed to shunt with passengers on board, full stop*. Doesn't matter whether the loco is pushing or pulling, or whether it's the train loco or the pilot. You could attach or detach empty vehicles (eg buffet car, vans etc) with passengers on board the rest of the train. Previous Rule Books were less restrictive, the 1950 Rule Book (for example) states:

 

Vehicles must, where practicable, be attached or detached from a passenger train without the train being moved...

 

Before any vehicle containing passengers is moved over points the person in charge must ascertain that the points are properly set and that the lines is clear and properly protected. (Rule 116)

 

... which does rather suggest that it was ok to attach loaded vehicles as well as empty ones. Thanks to Tren for reminding me to check whether 'twas ever thus !

 

In Sir Douglas's example, in most loco hauled periods one of four things will usually happen:

 

1. Pilot attaches to rear of train and once it's empty draws the carriages clear and the train loco follows it to the platform starting signal.

 

2. Another loco attaches to the rear to form the return working, and at departure time the original loco follows the train to the platform starting signal. No movement of the passenger carriages takes place between arrival and departure.

 

3. Once the passengers are all off (and the station staff have confirmed this), the train loco sets the now empty carriages back clear of the crossover, runs round, if necessary propels the still empty carriages back towards the buffers, and the station staff let everybody back on.

 

4. If the platform is long enough, and it's operationally convenient to do so, the train stops short of the crossover to start with, and the loco runs round in the normal way. Doesn't matter what you do with the passengers in this one because the carriages aren't moving anywhere.

 

[* You are allowed to shunt with passengers on if you require to detach the DVT because the door's fallen off but only if it's the last Euston-Glasgow on a Saturday night, and it's the last Saturday of Glasgow Fair Week, and it's full of drunken Weegies who aren't going to like being turfed off in the middle of Cumbria for half an hour while you prat about and the Senior Conductor politely declines your invitation to put this option to them, and you don't tell Control or get caught. I should add that it wasn't me wot dun it. ]

 

In short, nothing to stop the station pilot attaching or detaching from a loaded passenger train as long as the passenger bit stays stationary.

[Buhar]

Haven't the rules on shunting with passengers changed over the years, eg attaching and detaching through carriages (eg ACE, Lakes Express)? Slip coaches would be a complete no-no these days.

[The Stationmaster]

I think engines are not allowed to push carriages with people on board, so the pilot is exempt because it's pulling.

 

On the modern railway that might be the case as they seem to be scared witless of any sort of propelling move. But not the case in the past - nothing at all wrong with propelling a passenger train or vehicles containing passengers when shunting, indeed many things which happened on the railway would have been scuppered if you weren't allowed to propel.

 

But back to 'pilot' locos and picking up on the points raised a while back by Pennine. I don't know why station and yard pilot locos are called 'pilots' but the term seems very long established and still remains in use in the few places where such provision still exists - basically the 'pilot' is the local shunting engine although it might also have worked a few local trips in between its pilot duties.

 

Pilots are not 'stand by's - the latter are there to replace failed locos or - in the long past years - to be readily available to work a special or additional train arranged at very short notice. The confusion I think arises because as the railway contracted in many places the jobs of the pilot and stand by were combined, especially as pilot work tended to contract with the loss of tail traffic and changes to parcels working and the move to multiple unit trains for local passenger work. A 'shed pilot', or a 'works pilot' were - again - simply shunting locos, with an obvious use.

The term was also used elsewhere on the railway with probably the best known example being an additional loco assisting at the front of a train. I'm not sure when these officially became 'assistant loco' (well before nationalisation I suspect - probably the 1930s) but the terminology remained in regular everyday railway talk long after it ceased to be used officially. There were to my knowledge two others usages for the term pilot loco and in the first it was basically 'the loco that runs ahead of a train' - this was done with Royal trains at one time (going back to no later than the 1930s I think and definitely excluded from the first set of common Royal etc Train Instructions issued during WWII and subsequent BR Instructions. The other was the use of a loco specifically at the disposal of the 'Pilotman' during Single Line Working and as far as I can trace this was the last official usage of the term 'pilot loco' (use of it in other contexts being prohibited in order to avoid any chance of confusion) - a 'pilot loco' is not the same as a 'yard/station/etc pilot', a subtle distinction in usage.

The word was also used - until prohobited (in the late 1960s or thereabouts) to describe a 'Pilot Driver' this being a Driver who was booked out to give route knowledge guidance to a Driver who was working over a road he didn't know. This was officially changed to 'Conductor Driver to avoid confusion with the official term of 'Pilotman' used in the Rules and process of Single Line Working. But enginemen could still be heard (and might still be heard knowing how old usage can hang on) talking of a 'Pilot' or 'Pilotman' when what they really should have been saying was 'Conductor' or 'Conductor Driver'.

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

I think it was quite common for a train to be separated for a spur connection. To give an example but not to quote it, there could be two coaches on the back of a Weymouth train that were bound for Swanage. Two coaches would be detached on the main line whilst the train was stationary at Wareham. The main train would depart and another loco would attach to the two coaches and off the train goes to Swanage. Those two coaches would then be taken back to Wareham to meet the up train and be re-attached to that. One can only wonder at whether two guards were needed as corridor stock does require inside closure and external locking by the shunter. It is possible for one guard to board the detaching coaches, secure the corridor connection, dismount and back to the main train, secure the other side of the disconnect point whilst the shunter disconnected the coupling and secured both corridor connections after the train pulls forward a foot or two.

 

This is not station pilot duty as such, more branch line working. Station pilots were more used for pulling and pushing empty stock or freight attached to a passenger working.

 

It is not correct to assume that shunting with passengers aboard never took place. The Night Ferry was shunted on and off the ferry. Perhaps the rules didn't apply if the passengers were all horizontal!

[Kris]

One can only wonder at whether two guards were needed as corridor stock does require inside closure and external locking by the shunter. It is possible for one guard to board the detaching coaches, secure the corridor connection, dismount and back to the main train, secure the other side of the disconnect point whilst the shunter disconnected the coupling and secured both corridor connections after the train pulls forward a foot or two.

 

I suspect that you would only need one guard. If extra help were needed then I would guess platform staff / station shunter would do it. The other option would be for the guard of the branching train to be responsible for this, however this would not work it the guard was on an inbound train that picked up the coaches.

 

 

 

[Guest stuartp]

Regularly required movements with passengers on board, be they combining or splitting trains or the Night Ferry arrangements, can be accommodated by special instructions. ("The vacuum brake must be in use throughout ..." that sort of thing).

 

Any rule can be over-ridden by a special instruction if someone sufficiently senior deems it necessary. During my tenure at Appleby the VSOE was regularly run round in the (freight only) PW yard at Appleby North because the alternative was detraining everybody during dinner or sending the loco on to Culgaith to cross over and come back. There wasn't time for that so Intercity Special Trains Unit arranged special working instructions, paid for a platelayer to patrol the yard before it arrived to make sure everything was still there, we clipped the points, the guard locked all the doors to stop the punters falling out, and off we went. Perfectly ok because The Man at York said so but if I'd done it off my own bat I'd have been carpetted.

 

Think of the 'no shunting' rule as applying more to ad hoc or irregular movements - detaching defective vehicles, backing the whole train into a trailing siding to attach a couple of horse boxes etc. As Stationmaster has illustrated, even that wouldn't have been frowned at one point but it was very much the case by late BR days.

[Edwin_m]

I guess the term "pilot" in the railway context evolved from its maritime use. I know the pilot is someone who guides a ship in and out of certain harbours, and uses a pilot boat to travel to and from the ship, which sort of fits with some of the uses that Stationmaster says are now given other names! I'm not knowledgeable enough about shipping to know whether the term "pilot" has other uses analogous to a station/yard pilot etc on the railway.

[Chris116]

I am sure that the sleepers to Inverness in the 1970's went past the station and then shunted back into a platform that was close to the next Far North service. The twice I was on the train it was very interesting to find that we were being propelled with a shunter at what had been the back of the train riding on the outside of the rear door! I put it down to Inverness being far anough away from 'management'.

 

Chris

[bike2steam]

Now if I can remember some of the rules from my old Swanage Railway days, when 'propelling', without the fitment of modern push-pull equipment, you were limited to 2 coaches max, but 'topping & tailing' - no limit.

[EddieB]

Now if I can remember some of the rules from my old Swanage Railway days, when 'propelling', without the fitment of modern push-pull equipment, you were limited to 2 coaches max, but 'topping & tailing' - no limit.

 

There are plenty of other examples I'm sure, but the one that comes to mind is of a class 08 pilot shunting stock at Euston and propelling a rake of a dozen empty carriages into the departure platforms from the carriage sidings.

 

On the Continent, there used to be no qualms about propelling carriages full of passengers as part of a shunt - Milano Centrale and Frankfurt HBf come to mind.

 

Propelling freight trains was probably quite rare, but I understand that trip workings to the Air Ministry sidings and later to the Acrow's Factory sidings on the Saffron Walden branch were propelled forward from Saffron Walden, these sidings having been laid out "facing" the opposite direction to the main traffic flow. Some photographic evidence would be much appreciated - but I don't think any exists!

[The Stationmaster]

Now if I can remember some of the rules from my old Swanage Railway days, when 'propelling', without the fitment of modern push-pull equipment, you were limited to 2 coaches max, but 'topping & tailing' - no limit.

 

There was no length limit on propelling on BR - well not stipulated as such, but there was a practical limit imposed by the ability of the Driver at the back of the move being able to see the Shunter in charge of it at the front (but that could be got round with intermediate people to relay handsignals and in more recent time by use of back-to-back radios). In terms of distance the limit is that set by the Rules & Regs - basically propelling was only permitted in Station Limits (a signalling term which ha nothing to do with the presence or otherwise of a station) or in sidings and occasionally 'where specially authorised' outside Station Limits or in certain categories of emergency. But even so when shunting etc that could mean propelling a train a good half mile or more.

In one yard where I worked the Shunters had a habit of going in for 'long shunts' and would pull a complete road of 70 odd (swb, freight) vehicles and then shunt them - a bit daft in my view as I always reckoned it far quicker to shunt short rafts when marshalling.

 

 

 

[28XX]

The station pilot at Banbury an 08, had a wooden home-made nameplate "CHERWELL" (the river which runs through the town) circa 1979.

[Oldddudders]

On the Continent, there used to be no qualms about propelling carriages full of passengers as part of a shunt - Milano Centrale and Frankfurt HBf come to mind.

I'm sure I saw a loaded pasenger coach being fly-shunted - i.e. without any loco attached - through a middle road in Bern station 40 years ago. No doubt a shunter (chap) was on board with an ability to operate some sort of braking device. No doubt it was done every day. No doubt it seldom went wrong - if ever.

[Rugd1022]

The station pilot at Banbury an 08, had a wooden home-made nameplate "CHERWELL" (the river which runs through the town) circa 1979.

 

08 784, remember it well!

 

Regarding propelling moves.... before the remodelling took place at Rugby we had to propel full length freights across all six running lines when the Forders Sidings and Northampton Trips returned in the afternoons. The yard shunter would meet the incoming driver on the down side by the ground signal, hand him a back-to-back radio and tell him when to stop, once the road had been set and the signal cleared, the shunter would call the driver back talking to him every few seconds, walking in front of the movement at the same time (but not in the four foot!). In bad weather or if the incoming driver requested it, we would sometimes come across with the 08 / 09, couple onto the back and drag the whole shebang back over to the up side. This actually made things easier as the Trip engine could be quickly detached and put to one side, and the rake of wagons propelled into the yard straight away.

 

Nidge

[Oldddudders]

Regarding propelling moves.... before the remodelling took place at Rugby we had to propel full length freights across all six running lines when the Forders Sidings and Northampton Trips returned in the afternoons. The yard shunter would meet the incoming driver on the down side by the ground signal, hand him a back-to-back radio and tell him when to stop, once the road had been set and the signal cleared, the shunter would call the driver back talking to him every few seconds, walking in front of the movement at the same time (but not in the four foot!). In bad weather or if the incoming driver requested it, we would sometimes come across with the 08 / 09, couple onto the back and drag the whole shebang back over to the up side. This actually made things easier as the Trip engine could be quickly detached and put to one side, and the rake of wagons propelled into the yard straight away.

Real railwaymen + proper understanding = safe method of working.

[Peter Bedding]

The station pilot at Banbury an 08, had a wooden home-made nameplate "CHERWELL" (the river which runs through the town) circa 1979.

 

and fans of Inspector Morse will know how it's pronounced....

[newbryford]

A regular 08 shunt move occurred at Preston when the Liverpool-Edinburgh and Manchester-Glasgow trains were combined between there and Carstairs.

The Manc would usually arrive in P3, the Liverpool in P2. Both sections would detach their 47's at the northern end,with the sparky going on the front of the Manc portion. An 08 would attach to the rear of the Liverpool half and do a quick shunt out and back at the south of the station - all passengers still on board. I must admit to using this service once or twice between P2 and P3........

 

At Carstairs, the Edin-Liverpool would run north of the station and then shunt back onto the Glas-Manc section, already in the other platform. This move was usually accomplished at *good* speeds!

 

 

Likewise, the Preston-London sleeper would be attached to the Barrow-London by using an 08 at about 0130 - I certainly slept through it once.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[bike2steam]

and fans of Inspector Morse will know how it's pronounced....

 

Yep, like Shrowsbury, and Rumsey, but the real local people pronounce as spelt, sorry I digress .

[EddieB]

I'm sure I saw a loaded pasenger coach being fly-shunted - i.e. without any loco attached - through a middle road in Bern station 40 years ago. No doubt a shunter (chap) was on board with an ability to operate some sort of braking device. No doubt it was done every day. No doubt it seldom went wrong - if ever.

 

There used to be a gravity shunt at Oberammergau in the days of the E69 steeple cabs. The loco would reverse its (empty) carriages up the incline of the station throat, move clear, and the train would roll back downhill into the platform road under the control of the guard.

 

Hey, there was a fantastic article about Oberammergau in Continental Railway Modeller back in early 1980 (he said modestly, ahem).

[EddieB]

Waterloo had a Class 09, which lurked in the sidings where Waterloo International was built, whilst Paddington was just getting shot of its Class 22s and gaining 31s. I can't say I have any recollection of seeing pilots at St Pancras or Kings Cross.

 

Whether it was the higher speed of an 09 or not, the attached photo shows what can go wrong when vehicles are being propelled (rather poor, as it was taken through a GUV on an Instamatic). Thanks to a little too much push from D4102, PMV S1386 and CCT 35577M have gotten to know each other rather well. Waterloo, October 1973.

 

As the French would say, they have reached a fourgon conclusion...

 

[bike2steam]

Now if I can remember some of the rules from my old Swanage Railway days, when 'propelling', without the fitment of modern push-pull equipment, you were limited to 2 coaches max, but 'topping & tailing' - no limit.

 

Sorry I didn't explain it properly, I meant a service train carrying passengers - not an ECS working, at the time Swanage Railway hadn't quite reached Harmans Cross station but was running loco first to Herston station (1 &1/4 miles) then the loco ran round, and propelled up to a location called 'New Barn, another mile, and a half. Then after a short break hauled the train back to Swanage.

[Edwin_m]

The GCR(N) routinely propels the whole way from Loughborough to Ruddington. The brake coach at the front has a windscreen (no wipers!) in place of a gangway with a brake valve and horn for the "driver" but I wouldn't describe it as modern push-pull equipment...

[The Stationmaster]

Sorry I didn't explain it properly, I meant a service train carrying passengers - not an ECS working, at the time Swanage Railway hadn't quite reached Harmans Cross station but was running loco first to Herston station (1 &1/4 miles) then the loco ran round, and propelled up to a location called 'New Barn, another mile, and a half. Then after a short break hauled the train back to Swanage.

 

 

 

Ah - slightly different ground as we are now talking about a train movement as opposed to shunting. Simple answer is provided you have the right equipment (as basically explained above by Edwin) and have the necessary authority then away you go - but don't forget in these two instances we are talking about a train travelling at low speed. If you were doing it at normal passenger train running speeds then you'd be into the Driver also having control of power, a much better means of sounding a warning, and winsdscreen wipers etc.