Station Pilot - What Does it Do?

[9C85]

1 hour ago, Rivercider said:

I don't expect there was ever any rule about that, but as you have noticed the brake vans when coupled to yard or station pilots almost always appeared to be coupled to the nose end. 

If a class 08 was used for local trip work it would need to take a brake van, and this might be one end or the other, the Exeter area local trip pilot was an example from the 1980s,

08792 works a local trip of cement empties from Exeter Central to Riverside Yard and is seen passing through Exeter St Davids. 9/7/85

 

cheers

 

cheers   

Hiya.  Thanks for all the helpful information.  I have now started a thread about the layout I am building. Cheers 

[Pacific231G]

Two years later but does anyone familiar with the actual work of pilot engines in passenger stations, especially in steam days, know if these ever had their own dedicated loco spurs or did their crews simply park them between shunts at the ends of bays etc.  Cyril Freezer did include a loco spur (with coal and water) in his classic Minories plan but I think that was based on those at some inner suburban termini where rapid turnovers were needed. In that case, a locomotive  would wait in the spur in order to be able to move to the head of a train recently brought in by another loco after which it would be replaced in the spur by the now freed loco from a previous incoming train. As I understand it, pilot locos were responsible for shunting moves within the station such as adding or removing parcels vans, restaurant cars. sleeping cars etc. but did they ever have their own spur to lurk in between jobs?

All these of course were interesting operations now lost to fixed sets simply arriving and departing. 

[PhilJ W]

They were also used for ECS work. Taking entire rakes from the carriage sheds or sidings to or from the terminus.

[Pacific231G]

1 hour ago, PhilJ W said:

They were also used for ECS work. Taking entire rakes from the carriage sheds or sidings to or from the terminus.

There used to be a gaggle of panniers that did that at Paddington. When they'd brought the ECS into the platform they were trapped until the train departed but, since they were supplying steam heating, that hardly mattered. One article I read did though make a distinction between pilot duties and ECS moves, which, presumably depending on where the coach sidings were, counted as train moves rather than shunting so required different lamps.

https://m.facebook.com/DidcotRailwayCentre/photos/a.210517012308528/4337469839613204/?type=3 

Those locos were shuttling trains between the carriage sidings and the platforms so always had somewhere to be but what I'm really curious about is the pilot locos that handled shunting within stations. One example I do know about. The old Fort William was the simplest main line passenger terminus imaginable with three platforms but just two sets of points. But, it was a reversing terminus with trains arriving simultaneously from both Mallaig and Glasgow and then departing on the opposite route with new locos and sometimes in summer with relief trains as well. There was also a lot of adding, subtracting and swapping of tail loads, sleeping, restaurant and even observation cars. So, the station sometimes needed two pilot locos at the busiest times, though with hours of very little activity in between. I know that if the pilots there needed to get out of the way they lurked in the Nevis yard   headshunt (where I've also seen one of them shunting oil wagons) but what happened at other stations where pilot locos were used? Did they often have a dedicated spur or did they usually just park between shunts wherever was convenient such as at the end of bay or parcels platforms.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Pacific231G

[The Johnster]

At Cardiff General there were up side and down side pilots, in the late 50s the up was usually an 8750, and a 94xx for the down side.  Their work was largely, but not exclusively, shunting NPCCS, the up in the ‘fish dock’ and the down dealing with ‘strawberry sidings’, but both could be seen transferring traffic from one to other at various times.  ECS was generally handled by the train loco or one of the carriage shed pilots.  They also attached or detached any traffic to or from through trains.  
 

At Reading, the down side pilot was a big engine with a full tender facing west, usually a Hall.  This apparently wasteful use of a big locomotive was actually strategic thinking; any engine on a down express that was going to give trouble would be showing signs of it by the time it got to Reading, 40 miles out from Paddington, and could be quickly replaced with the Hall, which could make a tolerable fist of most jobs until it could be replaced somewhere downline by something faster and more powerful.  

[Pacific231G]

That doesn't suprise me as i think the station pilot at Oxford in the early 1960s was generally a Hall too. Some confirmation of that here. though Eaton Hall is facing south.

https://picclick.co.uk/1948-Great-Western-Railway-Train-Photo-Eaton-Hall-274781007415.html#&gid=1&pid=1

A Hall would also have been perfectly capable of taking the usual eight coach trains up towards Worcester or anything going up to Banbury.

[The Stationmaster]

20 hours ago, The Johnster said:

At Cardiff General there were up side and down side pilots, in the late 50s the up was usually an 8750, and a 94xx for the down side.  Their work was largely, but not exclusively, shunting NPCCS, the up in the ‘fish dock’ and the down dealing with ‘strawberry sidings’, but both could be seen transferring traffic from one to other at various times.  ECS was generally handled by the train loco or one of the carriage shed pilots.  They also attached or detached any traffic to or from through trains.  
 

At Reading, the down side pilot was a big engine with a full tender facing west, usually a Hall.  This apparently wasteful use of a big locomotive was actually strategic thinking; any engine on a down express that was going to give trouble would be showing signs of it by the time it got to Reading, 40 miles out from Paddington, and could be quickly replaced with the Hall, which could make a tolerable fist of most jobs until it could be replaced somewhere downline by something faster and more powerful.  

Now let's please get Reading right!

 

The Down Pilot at Reading (General) station was for donkeys years a 43XX - it shunted vans etc on/off trains and did occasional forays to Triangle Sidings but wasn't a coach pilot as such - that work was covered by various other engines.  Oddly the Up Pilot seemed to acquire bigger engines before the Down Pilot but became a regular 'Manor' turn once they started to be transferred back to Reading towards the end of their careers.  By that time the the Down Pilot occasionally saw a ;Hall' before it became a regular 'Castle' turn.

 

The Down Pilot mainly dealt with tail traffdic by the mid 1950s plus pivcking up the remain Slip coaches after they were slipped in Pltaform 5.  It tended to spend a lot of time in No.7 bay (where we all queued up to cab it if there was friendly Driver in charge) in 43XX days but once larger engines were used it spent most of its time on the Relief Lines middle siding.

 

The Up Pilot was usually in either the Fish Dock siding on the Down side at the east end of Platform 4 or over on the Pilot Line on the Up side.  It turned out to be the one which got most of the assistance work with failed diesels although  Lot of that was only because of boiler failures during the heating season which often meant some fast running if the diesel was still running properly for haulage purposes.

 

By the time of full dieselisation the Up Pilot had been abolished and there was just a single pilot left for work at the station - mainly shunting parcels vans on the Relief Lins side so it inevitably spent most of its time on the Middle Siding.  At one time it was a regular a D95XX turn after which it vanished as there was no longer any work for it.

 

So basically the two Reading station pilots dealt with tail traffic plus shunting parcels around to the various places where they were dealt plus any additional moves to Triangle Sidings and across to the SR - the latter normally being with tail traffic.  That work gradually reduced during the late 1950s/early '60s as tail traffic began to disappear.  But at the same time the pilots increasingly became stand-bys for loco failures which technically had previously been part of their work but was less frequently called on.  However on one occasion in steam days the Reading Up Pilot, a 'Hall', replaced the Didcot Up Pilot, a 43XX, on the Up 'Bristolian after the original train engine had failed west of Didcot,.  The Old Oak Driver had managed to drive the Didcot pilot into the ground as he tried to make up time (!!) so it too had to come off hence being replaced by the Reading pilot.   

[The Johnster]

There’s an incident I read in one of Adrian Vaughan’s outpourings about a Didcot 28xx being coupled on a dying Warship on the down ‘Bristolian’ and being hammered to insane speeds; this was in about 1963 IIRC and the loco was probably regarded as expendable.  A fitter on the train managed to resurrect the Warship somewhere around Chippenham and the 28xx, still flat out, was pushed even faster, into the high 90s, and a team was waiting with oxy cutting gear at Temple Meads to remove the seized motion.  
 

This proved to be hot, but not damaged, and the loco hauled a freight back to Didcot later in the day.   This was not long after the ‘Red Duchess to the rescue’ story in the national press about a failed 40 being replaced by a Pacific at Shap, and pains were, according to AV, taken to prevent the press reporting that the WR’s top express had been hauled successfully by one of their oldest freight steamers!   The 28xx was withdrawn shortly afterwards, though whether as a result of this escapade, or simply because steam withdrawal was proceeding apace at the time, I do not know

Edited June 2, 2022 by The Johnster

[Pandora]

I think it would be the late 1980s, seen  at  Bimingham New Street Station, the station  08 in polished gloss black, it may have been lettered LMS,  memory fading!

Anyone able to identify the locomotive?

[Pacific231G]

Thanks Statinmaster that's both fascinating and informative. I vaguely remember "cabbing" the loco at Oxford though to us it was just a loco stationary on the bay for long enough to chat to the driver: as a twelve or thirteen year old I didn't have a deep enough understanding of operations to even know what a pilot loco was.

You mentioned the "Pilot Line" at Reading. Does that mean that there was a road dedicated to the up pilot there or was it just the line the up pilot habitually occupied. What I'm getting is that pilot locos did just park wherever convenient around their station but didn't have special servicing spurs with water etc. I rather suspect that generations of modellers have been misled by the turnover loco spur on Cyril Freezer's Minories into believing that such spurs were part of normal station operation rather than being specific to the fast turn round of loco hauled commuter services. But I could be wrong about that.

[PhilJ W]

5 minutes ago, Pandora said:

I think it would be the late 1980s, seen  at  Bimingham New Street Station, the station  08 in polished gloss black, it may have been lettered LMS,  memory fading!

Anyone able to identify the locomotive?

Pilot engines were often smartly turned out. The J69 and N7 at Liverpool Street station were prime examples.

[Steamport Southport]

22 minutes ago, Pandora said:

I think it would be the late 1980s, seen  at  Bimingham New Street Station, the station  08 in polished gloss black, it may have been lettered LMS,  memory fading!

Anyone able to identify the locomotive?

 

Yes. 08601 Spectre.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/eastfield/51884062473/

 

I tried to buy it and was told I was wasting my time as it was just a shell and had been totally stripped. It was rotting in Allerton depot for years. Moved to Wigan not long after this photo was taken and scrapped.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/cmc1987/14112359802/

 

 

I'm pretty sure if it was in better condition then someone else would have beaten me to it anyway.

 

 

Jason

Edited June 2, 2022 by Steamport Southport

[Artless Bodger]

Looking back to the comments on propelling with passengers, what was the procedure at Dorchester South? I remember backing into the up platform in 1968 or thereabouts, but that was with a 33/TC I presume? What happened in steam days?

 

On an up DMU at Maidenhead one day we were all ejected onto the platform while the DMU ran forward and backed into the branch platform when we were all allowed back on, I can't remember the reason (maybe to couple to a DMU up from Bourne End?)

 

Propelling into stations on the continent, I've seen photos of a shunter in the leading vestibule, with a thin pipe connected to the coach brake pipe, a valve at the end so he can apply the brake, or at least enough to alert the driver to make a brake application.

[roythebus1]

An interesting use of a station pilot on the DB from a friend who is a retired DB driver ex Koeln Deutz, back in the early 1980s he was working an international express from Koeln Hbf to Hannover, his loco failed as he tried to pull away from the "home" signal into the station with a lengthy train, maybe 14 on including a couple of through coaches to Moscow.

 

The station pilot at the time was one of the diminutive 4-wheel shunting locos. That was summoned to pull his train into the platform and surprisingly managed it!

[Aire Head]

15 minutes ago, roythebus1 said:

The station pilot at the time was one of the diminutive 4-wheel shunting locos. That was summoned to pull his train into the platform and surprisingly managed it!

 

Typical shunter. Lots of grunt but not a lot of speed!

[The Stationmaster]

On 02/06/2022 at 14:41, Pacific231G said:

Thanks Statinmaster that's both fascinating and informative. I vaguely remember "cabbing" the loco at Oxford though to us it was just a loco stationary on the bay for long enough to chat to the driver: as a twelve or thirteen year old I didn't have a deep enough understanding of operations to even know what a pilot loco was.

You mentioned the "Pilot Line" at Reading. Does that mean that there was a road dedicated to the up pilot there or was it just the line the up pilot habitually occupied. What I'm getting is that pilot locos did just park wherever convenient around their station but didn't have special servicing spurs with water etc. I rather suspect that generations of modellers have been misled by the turnover loco spur on Cyril Freezer's Minories into believing that such spurs were part of normal station operation rather than being specific to the fast turn round of loco hauled commuter services. But I could be wrong about that.

The Pilot Line at Reading was actually at one time a through line used by a West Junction Yard Pilot to get to Reading High Level with the trip for Reading Low Level (and, at one time, exchange traffic for the SR which was exchanged between Reading LL GWR and Reading Jcn, SR).  The idea of it being that trips could avoid using the Up Goods Line (where trains might well be standing waiting a path from Main Line East towards London) and thus be able to run on time.   However if the Up Goods was clear a trip would use that in stead as it was slightly quicker because it was worked wholly under Permissive Block instead of effectively being regarded as a siding over part of its length.    

 

It effectively created a seventh through line all the way between Reading West Junction to Reading High Level, a distance of about a mile, and it was permissible for it to be used in the Down direction although it was mainly intended for use by Pilot trips in the Up direction.  Ii was severed somewhere in between the east and west ends of Reading station at some time in the early 1960s after which it became a dead end siding at Reading High Level

 

The general situation with Pilots on the (G)WR - if nowhere else, was that they stabled wherever there was some where for them to stand with no particular provision although occasionally engine spurs did exist but I can't think of any which were provided specifically for Pilot engines.  At Reading there was a dead end siding at High Level which trailed into the Pilot Line but I can't ever recall seeing an engine standing on it and it was in any case officially there for traffic purposes rather than being somewhere to stand a pilot.  Middle sidings at GWR stations seem - from photos - to have been places that were sometimes used to stable pilots but again their official purpose was usually for something different as they were double ended allowing vehicles or even terminating trains to be kept out of the way prior to going onto the opposite line plus handling tail traffic.

 

At Paddington the coach pilots would go into Paddington Yard, which lay between the Main and Relief Lines, and could wait there if they were not immediately going from an inward set of stock to one bound for Old Oak or West London.   The yard had a 'balloon' style water tank and was mainly used by tank engines turning round between suburban train jobs.

Edited June 3, 2022 by The Stationmaster

[The Stationmaster]

20 hours ago, Artless Bodger said:

Looking back to the comments on propelling with passengers, what was the procedure at Dorchester South? I remember backing into the up platform in 1968 or thereabouts, but that was with a 33/TC I presume? What happened in steam days?

 

On an up DMU at Maidenhead one day we were all ejected onto the platform while the DMU ran forward and backed into the branch platform when we were all allowed back on, I can't remember the reason (maybe to couple to a DMU up from Bourne End?)

 

Propelling into stations on the continent, I've seen photos of a shunter in the leading vestibule, with a thin pipe connected to the coach brake pipe, a valve at the end so he can apply the brake, or at least enough to alert the driver to make a brake application.

Dorchester South was a very straightforward situation for propelling back into the platform as the points which became facing (with one possible exception- depending on train length) had FPLs and the layout was properly signalled for the movement.  As it was all within Station Limits there was no need for any additional Instructions so there weren't any!.  However there was an instruction to apply if trains were so long they partially stood in advance of the Up Bay Starting Signal.

 

Strictly that move at Maidenhead would not have require passengers to detrain as the trailing point was detected bya ground disc.  But on the Western we were taught to take a 'belt and braces' approach if propelling passenger trains over unbolted points and we had to clip and padlock the points.  I suspect that day at Maidenhead there was nobody around who was prepared to walk up there and get down, and grubby, putting a clip. on the points so it was a lot easier to boot the passengers off the train.

 

Usinga brake valve like that is standard practice on a number of mainland European railways (pronbbably on all of them but I haven't seen propelling on some so i can't be certain but it will be a standard UIC method.  the procedure used to be to ca onnect the hose to the valve to the main train pipe but I know some vehicles had access to an internal fitting where the valve's hose could be connected.  Far simpler than the British way of requiring somebody on the leading vehicle able to operate the brake or at least to remain in sign ht of the Drver although back-to-back, continuous confidence tone, radios between Shunter and Driver are the ultimate simple way of doing the job.  

 

The only British stock I can immediately think of which would have used the  continental method of a brake valve attached by its hose to the train pipe was the ENS night stock which lalso had a clear window in the end gangway of the relevant vehicles to allow the person in charge of the movement to observe the line, and any signals, ahead.  The system would have been used during the attaching of portions and, in particular, at Swansea where the train off the Down arrival needed to be turned, via Loop West and Landore, before proceeding empty to North Pole International depot.

[Miss Prism]

I think this is Reading.

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

6 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

I think this is Reading.

 

 

It is - with what is probably the Down Pilot (judging by the lamps) on the middle siding and a train of SR Mk1s (1O48?) behind it standing at Platform 9.  6913 was moved to Reading on October 1960 and went on to Gloucester in April 1963 but it had two visits to Swindon in its time at Reading and the second one, in 1962, lasted 102 days according to the Irwell 'Book Of The Halls'

[Pacific231G]

4 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The Pilot Line at Reading was actually at one time a through line used by a West Junction Yard Pilot to get to Reading High Level with the trip for Reading Low Level (and, at one time, exchange traffic for the SR which was exchanged between Reading LL GWR and Reading Jcn, SR).  The idea of it being that trips could avoid using the Up Goods Line (where trains might well be standing waiting a path from Main Line East towards London) and thus be able to run on time.   However if the Up Goods was clear a trip would use that in stead as it was slightly quicker because it was worked wholly under Permissive Block instead of effectively being regarded as a siding over part of its length.    

 

It effectively created a seventh through line all the way between Reading West Junction to Reading High Level, a distance of about a mile, and it was permissible for it to be used in the Down direction although it was mainly intended for use by Pilot trips in the Up direction.  Ii was severed somewhere in between the east and west ends of Reading station at some time in the early 1960s after which it became a dead end siding at Reading High Level

 

The general situation with Pilots on the (G)WR - if nowhere else, was that they stabled wherever there was some where for them to stand with no particular provision although occasionally engine spurs did exist but I can't think of any which were provided specifically for Pilot engines.  At Reading there was a dead end siding at High Level which trailed into the Pilot Line but I can't ever recall seeing an engine standing on it and it was in any case officially there for traffic purposes rather than being somewhere to stand a pilot.  Middle sidings at GWR stations seem - from photos - to have been places that were sometimes used to stable pilots but again their official purpose was usually for something different as they were double ended allowing vehicles or even terminating trains to be kept out of the way prior to going onto the opposite line plus handling tail traffic.

 

At Paddington the coach pilots would go into Paddington Yard, which lay between the Main and Relief Lines, and could wait there if they were not immediately going from an inward set of stock to one bound for Old Oak or West London.   The yard had a 'balloon' style water tank and was mainly used by tank engines turning round between suburban train jobs.

Thank you Stationmaster. That is exactly the sort of insight I was hoping for.  in the last years of steam, Reading was just within pocket money range of Oxford, though a  trolleybus ride (which would be far more interesting now than it seemed then) from West to General was sometimes called for if I used the reliably late running Pines Express. I did ocasionally see Hallls on the middle roads but always assumed they were there to pick up north of England to south coast trains that, if they didn't go directly stopping at West, reversed at Reading General.  ISTR that the SR's Bulleid Pacifics were the last steam locos we saw at Oxford after the Hymeks had taken over on the WR but that's a digression from pilot locos.

 

I remember reading somewhere, possibly in one of Lucius Beebe's books, that backing entire passenger trains into downtown passenger termini was quite a common manouever on some American railways particularly in the deep south. It meant that trains didn't need to change locos and I think it was the conductor, positioned in the end vestibule, who carried out the operation using a special attachment to the brake pipe that incorporated a brake valve and an air whistle. The backing move could be quite a long one if the main line was on the edge of town. 

 

Edited June 3, 2022 by Pacific231G

[kevinlms]

Don't forget the ever present line of locos waiting at Manchester Victoria to bank trains up Miles Platting.

Such as seen here as 7542.

 

https://www.derbysulzers.com/25192.html

[keefer]

Scarborough station pilots 03073 and 08339 on a Summer Saturday in 1983.

03073 will have taken 45003's train out then propelled back into the adjacent platform. 45003 goes out then back onto its train after the 03 has parked in the single bay platform.

08339 has previously taken 40124's train out, the 40 has then followed out (as far as Falsgrave? There were carriage sidings there). 08339 propels the train back into the station (with shunter leaning out of the BSK guard's door). The video has edited out the 08 going back out again before 40124 comes in and joins its train. 

Rinse and repeat several times for all of the holiday extra trains (usually Mk1, second class only), although there will have been other normal trains too (l/h and DMU).

All-in-all a very busy but slick set of manoeuvres, AFAIK no passengers on board.

Was there in 1983, the previous week to the video and 1985.

Edited June 4, 2022 by keefer

[Oldddudders]

12 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

I remember reading somewhere, possibly in one of Lucius Beebe's books, that backing entire passenger trains into downtown passenger termini was quite a common manouever on some American railways particularly in the deep south. It meant that trains didn't need to change locos and I think it was the conductor, positioned in the end vestibule, who carried out the operation using a special attachment to the brake pipe that incorporated a brake valve and an air whistle. The backing move could be quite a long one if the main line was on the edge of town. 

 

St Louis Union comes to mind.

[The Stationmaster]

 

 

A tad O/T sorry

Limerick Jcn was a very well known example where every train had to propel back into the platform and I'm not sure that even after layout alterations some might still have to.   No station pilots seem to have been involved in the reversal working there

 

Incidentally going back to station (or yard) pilots the Western seems to have kept a very distinct separation of Station Pilots and Coaching Stock/ECS pilots.  At Paddington/West London/Old Oak Common the station and yard pilots were - back in the busy - years identified in separate series with them being identified by letter while coaching stock ECS pilots were identified numerically.  

 

The station/yard pilots did  get involved in very limited ECS work but this was normally at either the start or end of a turn and specifically noted in their workings (see NOTE below)  so in fact using Paddington as an example it at one time only had one station pilot (A Pilot) but there were ECS pilots in addition to the station pilot.  Reading, I know, was the same back in the days of loco hauled suburban services where the ECS pilots - presumably usually on or off passenger workings - were separate from the station pilots although the latter could be used for any immediately local ECS work arising.

 

NOTE - there was a further - less well known by enthusiasts - reason for identifying any ECS work on these turns in the case of yard pilots in that they would often be used as what were known as 'Green Card' or 'Domestic' turns.   This meant they could be used for Drivers who for various (usually health) reasons were no longer able to work over running lines or on train work or because , notwithstanding the rigours of shunting, were regarded as a much easier job than train work.  Similarly because they were normally turns with regular/fixed changeover times linked in a very simple pattern (unlike train working turns which could book on/off at any time of day) they were useful for men who,  for whatever domestic reason, needed a regular pattern of work with relatively fixed hours.

[The Johnster]

We had a turn at Canton for a driver who was deaf, a morning Valleys dmu duty that I was the guard on during my final years at the shed.  This meant that everybody else involved in this working, i.e. signalmen and shunters, and to some extent station staff, were aware of the limitations of blowing whistles to attract his attention, and of course buzz buzz on the bell was no use as a right away tip; I handsignalled him from the van or, where there were right hand platforms, he'd come across the cab to recieve the tip, or I'd be in the cab with him to do it.  The railway, as a community, came up with a solution, and coped; wouldn't happen nowadays!

 

A lot of the pilot duties were 'green card' jobs, and these included the Cardiff Docks pilots.  I thought this was a bit questionable, as some of those jobs involved being over on the foreshore in the middle of the night miles away from any other human presence, and if a man was taken ill it might be some time before his shunter could get help.  It's being questionalble did not, however, mean that I ever questioned it; it was clearly a laudible effort to accommodate the needs of men who would otherwise have lost their jobs and been 'retired on the sick'.

 

Nowadays, to quote that nice Elon Musk*, you'd be told to go and pretend to work somewhere else!

 

 

*funny the people you come across when you've left your baseball bat at home...