Football Focus

[luckymucklebackit]

I had a giggle at the supportive article in the BBC news, https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-49479847.  My club, Airdrie were the big bad new owners that bought Clydebank  and moved it to another town and renamed it, but the comment that Clydebank were "a massive football club and a massive football heritage." is a whopper of an overstatement, what we effectively bought was their league position as they had no stadium, no players and a trickle of fans, hardly a massive club, and as for a massive football heritage, they had only been in existence since 1965 and in their 37 years in the league only ever won one Second Division Championship.  Airdrie United Ltd agreed to voluntarily transfer their unwanted ownership of the name and insignia of Clydebank F.C. to United Clydebank Supporters who successfully applied to join the Junior League.

[BoD]

55 minutes ago, Torper said:

Back in June 1939 Forfar Athletic were in severe financial difficulty and on tjhe verge of collapse.  Then they received a "substantial donation" (not a loan) that ensured their survival.  The donation came from Aberdeen Football Club and while there may have been a string or two attached, the donation nevertheless came in the realisation that the collapse of one football club was not good news for another and that they were all in this business together.  I can't help thinking that there is a lot of football wealth in Lancashire and it surely would not have been impossible for one or more of the area's big clubs, or indeed big players, to have come to Bury's assistance in some way.  However, these are changed days now.

 

DT

 

I think that no club not just those in England are allowed to make direct payments to another club.

Didn’t Manchester City allow Bury to use their state of the art facilities at Carrington rent free when they moved out?

[SHMD]

A lot is put in store of the so called due-diligence test but from what I can see this test does not stop somebody coming in and effectively gambling with the clubs heritage, the fans loyalty, and all its assets in a “shot in the dark” bid for success.

 

After all, if success is achieved then the assets increase in value as does the owners shares, if it fails then he has lost nothing as it is the fixed assets and fans loyalty that pays – not the owner.

This is a gamblers dream and not a business model.

 

Due diligence does NOT stop these speculators it only (marginally) prevents some unsavoury prospective owners from joining who may tarnish the EFLs good name.

 

 

I feel for all fans with clubs in dire straits but this gambling model must stop.

 

 

Kev.

 

[Hobby]

3 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

That would indeed have been the sensible option. But it would contravene EFL rules and when it comes to being flexible or creative, the EFL makes ostriches look bright! EFL could have saved these clubs temporarily to enable new purchasers to be found with viable business plans. You don't sort out messes like this overnight.

 

I'm not so sure that the EFL should allow itself to go into club management/finance in that way. If they had done it in this case I can see a whole load of clubs queuing up behind Bury for their share of the cash. I regard it the same was as the suggestion by someone on R5L last night who suggested that the Government start passing some "legislation" to stop this sort of thing happening in the future... the Government should not be involved in "policing" football (as that's what it is, like it or not), just as much as the governing body of this level of football (the EFL) should not be involved in bailing out clubs.

 

Many people have commented about "unsuitable" businessmen being allowed to buy clubs but as far as I know none of us has seen the "evidence" the EFL had seen before making their decision. To me it all looks like a question of "with hindsight" which is all well and good but we don't have and it's easy to criticise after the event,

 

It would seem that this sort of thing has been coming for some time so, hard or not, I think things should be allowed to take their course. Perhaps that may focus some minds in the future, both prospective owners and the EFL.

[Owd Bob]

There's no hindsight needed in any of these cases its been going on for long enough for every real fan now at the brown end of the stick to know that, not one of these fans involved is criticising after the event , some of us have been rightly doing it for months if not years previously, knowing damn well what is coming. Its a problem the EFL have brought on themselves by completely ignoring them. It was very nice timing for their former leader to throw the towel in, and just in time to leave it to someone else to sort the mess out he left behind. It all go's right back to how these con artistes took control of clubs in the very first instance with their fit a proper test, how can anyone with a proven recorded record of dodgy financial dealings get through? 

          I do hope all this mess and Burys demise brings things to the fore and it all gets sorted out before more teams who are on the brink and their communities get into the same horrible predicament, but i would'nt put a SKY bet on it. The writing was on the wall the day some idiot thought up the idea of having a 'Premiership' talk about divide and conquer!

[Enterprisingwestern]

17 minutes ago, Owd Bob said:

There's no hindsight needed in any of these cases its been going on for long enough for every real fan now at the brown end of the stick to know that, not one of these fans involved is criticising after the event , some of us have been rightly doing it for months if not years previously, knowing damn well what is coming. Its a problem the EFL have brought on themselves by completely ignoring them. It was very nice timing for their former leader to throw the towel in, and just in time to leave it to someone else to sort the mess out he left behind. It all go's right back to how these con artistes took control of clubs in the very first instance with their fit a proper test, how can anyone with a proven recorded record of dodgy financial dealings get through? 

          I do hope all this mess and Burys demise brings things to the fore and it all gets sorted out before more teams who are on the brink and their communities get into the same horrible predicament, but i would'nt put a SKY bet on it. The writing was on the wall the day some idiot thought up the idea of having a 'Premiership' talk about divide and conquer!

 

As there are many cases of the haves and have nots within the Premier league itself, what chance has the rest of the football pyramid got?

 

Mike.

Edited August 28, 2019 by Enterprisingwestern

[Hobby]

With respect, the local communities are not going to suddenly fall apart with the demise of their local club, the likes of the town of Bury is large enough that the football club is only a small (but vocal) part of the community. I've had this discussion before with South Tyne and I stick with my view that the importance of football clubs these days is grossly over-rated in the life of a community. Times have moved on.

 

The whole of football needs to take a long hard look at itself. It's been living way beyond it's means for half a century or more now. No business is "entitled" to assume that it is outside the laws of good business, yet if I wanted to show someone how not to run a business then I could pick most of the English football clubs as prime examples. 

 

Take players for example, we are told that they need high wages because their "career" is short and they need to money for later in life. Perhaps they need to take lessons from the likes of the true greats from the past, like Tom Finney, who also trained up as a plumber so when his playing days were over he could have a job to go to. Wages, even in the EFL these days, are obscene.

 

Football needs to cut it's cloth according to it's means.

 

I see no chance of that happening, though, so expect to see more Burys in the near future together with great outpourings of grief and wringing of hands... 

Edited August 28, 2019 by Hobby

[caradoc]

It is of course very sad for the staff and supporters of Bury FC, and indeed the town, but will there be a silver lining ? The EFL has said that League 1 will run this season with 23 clubs, but for next season will additional clubs be promoted, through the pyramid, to make up the numbers ? This is what happened in 1962 when Accrington Stanley went bust and my club, Oxford Utd, entered the League in their place.

 

[peanuts]

3 hours ago, caradoc said:

It is of course very sad for the staff and supporters of Bury FC, and indeed the town, but will there be a silver lining ? The EFL has said that League 1 will run this season with 23 clubs, but for next season will additional clubs be promoted, through the pyramid, to make up the numbers ? This is what happened in 1962 when Accrington Stanley went bust and my club, Oxford Utd, entered the League in their place.

 

only three relegated from league 1 but four still come up from league 2 problem solved according to EFL  chief excec on radio 5 today .

[caradoc]

7 minutes ago, peanuts said:

only three relegated from league 1 but four still come up from league 2 problem solved according to EFL  chief excec on radio 5 today .

 

Thanks, but doesn't that just leave League 2 a team short instead of League 1 ?

 

[Ohmisterporter]

So an extra team will come up from the National League.....and an extra from the league below that.... and so it goes ad infinitum.

 

[peanuts]

1 hour ago, caradoc said:

 

Thanks, but doesn't that just leave League 2 a team short instead of League 1 ?

 

nope normally its four down four up between league 1 & 2  so only 3 down will re balance it question is who are the unlucky 2 to take the plunge with noblot ?

[43110andyb]

I personally feel it's more a tarnished lining for any club benefitting from this debacle!!

   Another bleak time for football! -Good luck to Bury supporters whatever the outcome! 

[kevinlms]

41 minutes ago, 43110andyb said:

I personally feel it's more a tarnished lining for any club benefitting from this debacle!!

   Another bleak time for football! -Good luck to Bury supporters whatever the outcome! 

No club will complain if they so benefit!

[caradoc]

9 hours ago, peanuts said:

nope normally its four down four up between league 1 & 2  so only 3 down will re balance it question is who are the unlucky 2 to take the plunge with noblot ?

 

No, if four go up from League 2 to 1 but only 3 come down from 1 to 2, League 2 will only have 23 teams ! Unless the same process is applied throughout the pyramid.

 

8 hours ago, 43110andyb said:

I personally feel it's more a tarnished lining for any club benefitting from this debacle!!

   Another bleak time for football! -Good luck to Bury supporters whatever the outcome! 

 

Not sure I would agree; Oxford United were elected to the Football League when Accrington Stanley folded, and went on to win several promotions, including in successive years from Division 3 to 2 and 2 to 1, sadly before Division 1 renamed itself the Premier League and took all the money ! Plus we won the League Cup as well (We also later managed to get relegated out of the EFL again........We don't like to talk about that !  But we have since returned, and have been promoted again). 

 

[Claude_Dreyfus]

I believe the way of evening up the numbers following Bury's demise will be three down from League 1, four up from League 2, only one relegated from League 2, and two up from the National League. So the ultimate 'beneficiary' of this will be whoever finishes 23rd in League 2, currently Stevenage, as they avoid relegation.

 

It is very sad about Bury, and being a fan of a team who very nearly went the same way, I have a lot of sympathy. I do believe that the whole mechanism for handling these situations needs overhaul...right from proper ownership due-diligence through to how to deal with clubs who do run into difficulty. Is points deduction really the option? Is effectively forcing a club to relegation (as rather vindictively happened to Southampton a few years back, and that from a Portsmouth fan!!) a good way to ensure they stay solvent, and manage to pay their creditors?

 

I'm afraid I do agree with a few other comments on here, suggesting Bury will not be the only club to suffer this fate over the next few years.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Claude_Dreyfus
Typo

[43110andyb]

Article from today's Northern Echo- every cloud- https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/sport/17866379.comment-darlingtons-journey-since-2012-offers-encouragement-bury/

[Joseph_Pestell]

21 hours ago, Hobby said:

 

I'm not so sure that the EFL should allow itself to go into club management/finance in that way.

 

Agreed that it would represent a sea-change in the way that EFL works. But we know that the current "model" is broken, so something has to be done.

 

The first, and easiest, "quick fix" is to pool travel costs. For, clubs at the further extremities, these are a huge part of the budget and puts them at a big disadvantage to other clubs in the same league. Last week, my local club, Yeovil, went to Barrow to play a match. I don't know what the attendance was but it will hardly have covered the costs, never mind all the wages and other costs.

 

US gridiron football (and other sports) maintain much closer control over the teams in their leagues. Seems to work.

[Joseph_Pestell]

One of the big problems at both Bolton and Bury is that nobody has pulled the alarm cord in time to mount a credible rescue. Do these things in a hurry, without due diligence, is just postponing the problem - and often making it worse.

 

One thing that EFL should be doing now, not just before the next season starts, is to get each club to prepare a thorough business case for the 20/21 season which then needs to be audited.

[peanuts]

10 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

No, if four go up from League 2 to 1 but only 3 come down from 1 to 2, League 2 will only have 23 teams ! Unless the same process is applied throughout the pyramid.

 

 

Not sure I would agree; Oxford United were elected to the Football League when Accrington Stanley folded, and went on to win several promotions, including in successive years from Division 3 to 2 and 2 to 1, sadly before Division 1 renamed itself the Premier League and took all the money ! Plus we won the League Cup as well (We also later managed to get relegated out of the EFL again........We don't like to talk about that !  But we have since returned, and have been promoted again). 

 

read what i said normaly its is four up four down between leagues 1&2 .this season it will be four up as normal but only three down so evening the numbers up in all the divisions as stated by Debbie Jeavons chief exec of the EFL on radio five yesterday so strait from the horses mouth as they say 

[peanuts]

[deltic17]

Firstly big sympathies to Bury....

 

There needs to be a full (AND ONGOING) review of all owners of clubs.

 

My own club Newcastle United is being completely strangled and run solely for the benefit of owner Mike cAshley and nobody else. The club has no interest in aiming to win cups - they only aim for PL survival and the sequence continues year after year. Any good players are sold at profit. Any good managers (Rafa Benitez) was moved on because he had ambition and wanted to compete and bring success and win things. Instead cAshley appoints a YES man (Steve Bruce). Newcastle were listed 19th in the most recent Deloitte ratings but we could be so much higher if the club was run properly. We provide free advertising for cAshley's own company SD (cheap tat) so advertising revenues go backwards compared to every other PL club. We have no proper boardroom/structure. We have outdated training facilities. More and more supporters are staying away as the malaise spreads. The club communicates terribly with the fans (hardly at all) and in particular the Fans Forum (where fans in theory can communicate with club) is regularly cancelled even though it is supposed to be quarterly as per PL rules but that is overlooked. Even small clubs such as Bournemouth spend £m's more than NU. cAshley has only spent about £5m a year net in the 12 years he has owned us and he has pretty much pocketed much of the rest. We are always late for the reporting of accounts. He has transferred the land behind to ground from NU to himself and then sold it for profit for office/accommodation so the stadium now can't be expanded even though we play to full houses until the 2019/20 season because of all the troubles he has created. He has no respect for anyone in or outside football. Hardly anybody buys NU shirts any more as they don't want to give the money to SD who control merchandise. Crowds are falling. He has though messed up big time over the summer and the whole thing is coming to a head as relegation once again looms - all because of a poor owner. A poor owner who doesn't want to sell as he is currently making too much from it. But maybe just like SD it is all starting to fall apart.

 

The football authorities need to be stronger.

[Hobby]

All of which goes to prove there are good owners and bad ones, and in between ones...

 

 

But who's to judge what a bad owner is, many of them would say that they are living within their means, which is a current requirement of the EPL, so whilst you may not like what he is doing (same as Man Utd fans vs the Glaziers) it would be hard to prove that he is a "bad" owner when looking at the books. What is bad or good varies dependant on the person looking at it, certainly the fans perspective will be different to an owner who has their own money invested in it.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

As a simplistic definition, a good owner is one who invests in the club, a bad one asset strips it.

 

Mike.

[Hobby]

I think that is far too simplistic. An owner that invests in the club, but only to the limit of their finances may not be seen by the fans as a good owner, even though they are doing nothing wrong financially, but are doing below what the fan expects of them... Hence I said it's not really possible to judge what a good or bad owner is as it depends on your perspective...