GWR Brown livery

[gwrrob]

Looking in Russells coach books I found coaches in all brown livery with Western Region numbers.When did these get painted in brown and what colour was the lettering.Was it the same as the siphons in yellow perhaps.How long did this livery last ? I'm particularly interested in the PBVs.

[Chinahand]

Hi Robin,

 

As near as I can tell the All Over Brown livery was introduced in 1908 and lasted until 1912 1922 when the original Chocolate and Cream came back into favour.

 

Have a look at THIS web site which I have found to be very useful for just this sort of information.

 

 

 

EDITED :- My apologies for the typo error. 1912 should have read 1922 and I have now corrected this.

[Guest dilbert]

The Great Western Way (initial tome) implies that PBVs reverted to overall brown in the early 1930s with coat of arms and lettering in the style of other passenger stock. I don't know if this practice was carried thru into WR(BR) days.... Older coaches were also treated in a similar way, such as those in workmen's trains.

 

What is interesting also from the GWW is a comment to the effect that "some GW Toads during WWII were also painted in Brown" (and not the bog standard grey) ...dilbert

[buffalo]

I suspect that Robin's interest is in the 1930s painting of PBVs, in which case I can add nothing to dilbert's reply.

 

As near as I can tell the All Over Brown livery was introduced in 1908 and lasted until 1912 when the original Chocolate and Cream came back into favour.

 

Have a look at THIS web site which I have found to be very useful for just this sort of information.

No, chocolate and cream was not re-introduced until 1922. According to Slinn, the 1908-1912 brown (windsor brown iirc) was followed by the lake livery shown by the model in this link to gwr.org. However, from a quick scim through his coverage of liveries, Harris refers only to a 'chocolate lake' livery.

 

Hopefully someone with more knowledge of coach liveries can bring us up to date on the current thinking on these one-colour liveries?

 

Nick

[petethemole]

The GWR painted a lot of coaches in plain brown during WW2 and some examples appear to have remained brown until repainted by BR. The shade seems to have been a reddish brown rather than the standard coach brown ("chocolate"), but I'm not sure whether that was also used. The GWS have an example at Didcot in reddish brown. The website photo appears to show cream or pale yellow lettering:

http://www.didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/coaches/7313/7313.html

 

Those that received WR numbers while still in brown would presumably have had them in the same colour as on carmine/cream stock.

 

Pre-war PBVs appear to have been brown/cream after 1927 but I'm open to correction here; I'm still looking for more details of GWR liveries of the 1930s/40s, especially the actual shade of WW2 brown. A visit to Didcot in the New Year methinks.

Pete

[Karhedron]

I recall reading that PBVs started to be painted in brown around 1934 as an economy measure. I cannot remember the source though so best to try and verify this.

[gwrrob]

The GWR painted a lot of coaches in plain brown during WW2 and some examples appear to have remained brown until repainted by BR. The shade seems to have been a reddish brown rather than the standard coach brown ("chocolate"), but I'm not sure whether that was also used. The GWS have an example at Didcot in reddish brown. The website photo appears to show cream or pale yellow lettering:

http://www.didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/coaches/7313/7313.html

 

Those that received WR numbers while still in brown would presumably have had them in the same colour as on carmine/cream stock.

 

Pre-war PBVs appear to have been brown/cream after 1927 but I'm open to correction here; I'm still looking for more details of GWR liveries of the 1930s/40s, especially the actual shade of WW2 brown. A visit to Didcot in the New Year methinks.

Pete

 

 

Thanks for that Pete.Its certainly more red than brown and theres no model paint available for it anyway.I was just thinking of something different but will stick with choc/cream for time being.

[BOARD OF TRADE]

Chocolate and Cream until 1908 when repaints in all over Chocolate started.In 1912 coaching stock was repainted again this time in Crimson Lake until Grouping in 1923 when once again Chocolate and Cream became the order of the day.

Hope this helps.

[Adrian Wintle]

Based on photographic evidence, the PBVs seem to have been in both overall brown and choc/cream through the '20s and '30s, probably depending on the role they were allocated to.

 

Adrian

[gwrrob]

Based on photographic evidence, the PBVs seem to have been in both overall brown and choc/cream through the '20s and '30s, probably depending on the role they were allocated to.

 

Adrian

 

Thanks but was the overall brown the same colour as the chocolate in chocolate and cream ,freight brown like the siphons or was it a different colour altogether ? Precision stock both freight and coach brown.

[Adrian Wintle]

Thanks but was the overall brown the same colour as the chocolate in chocolate and cream ,freight brown like the siphons or was it a different colour altogether ? Precision stock both freight and coach brown.

 

It would appear to be the same brown as coach brown (chocolate), bearing in mind that it would likely look different on older, panelled PBVs than it would have on steel-sided ones, and that it would change colour as it weathered.

 

Adrian

[Il Grifone]

It would appear that vans started to be painted brown during the thirties along with the more decrepit passenger stock. It is probable that these vehicles received less care during painting*, which could have resulted in a different final shade and would also have affected how the paintwork weathered. Photos of single coloured vehicles taken during the twenties would presumably be still in the 1912-22 crimson lake, or even WW I livery, which appears to have included khaki and black. Windsor brown was the pre-1908 'chocolate', which may? have been the same as the 1908-12 brown lake and I believe is the same as the later, 1922 onwards, shade. It is possible that a change in varnish took place, which would also affect the shade.

 

* Possibly less coats of primer/topcoat /varnish were applied?

 

During WW II (and for some time afterwards), paint supplies (and quality!) were precarious and it is likely these colours would have been still in evidence on vans into the BR period. Fresh paint, when available, was given to new and mainline stock in preference.

 

BR livery was crimson and cream for corridor stock and all crimson for non corridor, but again it is likely that paint work in good condition would have had just the new lettering applied. (After all the Southern managed to keep their green going for several years.)

 

The BR chocolate and cream colours were not quite the same as the GWR ones.

[neal cooper]

Can I ask in this thread about Brown livery for NPCCS vehicles? I have an early Scorpion carriage truck with a patent (Allen?) screw brake and Mansell wheels on my work bench awaiting painting. Should the solebar and underfloor ironwork be black or is any of it brown? I can't find a written reference in any of my books and i'm aware wagon grey livery extended to these areas. Any help gratefully received!

[Guest dilbert]

As with the rest of dia P vehicles in the coaching index, solebars and underframe were painted black... dilbert

[neal cooper]

As with the rest of dia P vehicles in the coaching index, solebars and underframe were painted black... dilbert

 

Thanks dilbert, just what I needed to know!

 

Regards, Neal

[Darwinian]

Just out of interest, how long was the time between repaints for GWR coaches generally?

 

I'm modelling a Welsh Valleys branch line in (approximately) 1930 so I know I can have 1928 Chocolate and Cream but what about 1922 fully lined or even 1912 Crimson lake liveries (obviously not on absorbed stock which I assume would have been repainted by 1930). I've seen a few photo's dated 1930 with lined stock, but would this still have been failry common, especially on secondary lines?

 

Adrian

[Adrian Wintle]

Just out of interest, how long was the time between repaints for GWR coaches generally?

 

I'm modelling a Welsh Valleys branch line in (approximately) 1930 so I know I can have 1928 Chocolate and Cream but what about 1922 fully lined or even 1912 Crimson lake liveries (obviously not on absorbed stock which I assume would have been repainted by 1930). I've seen a few photo's dated 1930 with lined stock, but would this still have been failry common, especially on secondary lines?

 

Adrian

 

Certainly you could see the occasional examples of both fully-lined and crimson lake coaches as strengthening coaches on main line trains in the late '20s and early '30s, so it certainly would be plausible.

 

Absorbed stock is a bit different. I would assume that any absorbed stock that wasn't immediately dragged to the Swindon dump (as a lot was) would have been repainted relatively quickly and so would likely be in lined chocolate and cream by 1930. I doubt if much absorbed stock got another repaint after that as a lot of the coaches that were kept were discarded in the '30s.

 

Adrian

[coachmann]

As always, photos are the answer...

[Darwinian]

Thanks for confirming my impression Adrian. Some of the flat sided Rhymney railway coaches lasted into BR days so one day I'll try to scratch build some, in Chocolate and cream of course.

Ah, yes photo's. Well Coachmann, if I'd had the sense to go to the National Library of Wales when I was living between Machynlleth and Aberystwyth I might have been a bit better off. Not really an option now I'm in East Anglia.

I've been collecting all the appropriate books that I can find but most of the photographs are either pre-grouping or post nationalisation and very few show of the others show coaching stock clearly. I'll keep looking.

I probably should join the Welsh railways Research Circle too but keep putting it off because i cannot get to any meetings.

 

Adrian

[sej]

Can I ask in this thread about Brown livery for NPCCS vehicles? I have an early Scorpion carriage truck with a patent (Allen?) screw brake and Mansell wheels on my work bench awaiting painting. Should the solebar and underfloor ironwork be black or is any of it brown? I can't find a written reference in any of my books and i'm aware wagon grey livery extended to these areas. Any help gratefully received!

Hi, could someone please confirm that the rest of the Scorpion would be in brown, I've got exactly the same model in grey primer, small world eh? Also would there be any markings/transfers? Sorry to digress but this forum seems to be a remarkably good resource! Cheers Simon

[Guest dilbert]

Hi, could someone please confirm that the rest of the Scorpion would be in brown, I've got exactly the same model in grey primer, small world eh? Also would there be any markings/transfers?

 

Have a wander around this site http://www.raymondwa...e/scorpion.html - some lovely models including a Scorpion... dilbert

[sej]

 

Have a wander around this site http://www.raymondwa...e/scorpion.html - some lovely models including a Scorpion... dilbert

Many thanks!

Simon

[iL Dottore]

It would appear that vans started to be painted brown during the thirties along with the more decrepit passenger stock. It is probable that these vehicles received less care during painting*, which could have resulted in a different final shade and would also have affected how the paintwork weathered.

If I have understood everyone's posts correctly, I would be able to have a rake of Ratio 4-Wheelers (built "as is" or modfied) sprayed brown and covered liberally with "grot" and it would be prototypically correct for a 1930s workman's train?

 

If so, what about the markings on the sides (insignia, lettering). I have some reference photos of 4-wheel stock for workman's trains, but they aren't that great and it is almost impossible to make out what lettering goes where.

 

Thanks

 

F

[Karhedron]

Following up on the PBVs, I have found quite a few pictures of brown K40 and K41 full brakes from the 1930s. These have the GWR shirtbutton emblem on them so I would hazard a guess they were painted the same shade of brown as other coaching stock.

 

Does anyone know what livery these vehicles would have worn post-war. Some were still painted brown in early BR days. I am wondering if those repainted between the end of WW2 and nationalisation would have still been in plain brown but with the post-war Hawksworth crest?

[Adrian Wintle]

If I have understood everyone's posts correctly, I would be able to have a rake of Ratio 4-Wheelers (built "as is" or modfied) sprayed brown and covered liberally with "grot" and it would be prototypically correct for a 1930s workman's train?

 

If so, what about the markings on the sides (insignia, lettering). I have some reference photos of 4-wheel stock for workman's trains, but they aren't that great and it is almost impossible to make out what lettering goes where.

 

Thanks

 

F

 

I've seen photos where the coaches had GWR over the twin-shield crest with no other markings visible (except coach number). I've also seen photos where there are no apparent markings.

 

I'd guess that some of them got the shirtbutton monogram.

 

Adrian