GWR Brown livery

[melmoth]

On 09/06/2019 at 17:50, Miss Prism said:

black ends

 

 

Have you got any other sources for that? I can't see anything in Great Western Way (1978 edition) that states that definitively to be the case, and the passage in the book on later carriage liveries concludes:  "The Railway then handed over to the nationalised concern a set of vehicles for which a standard pattern and lining had not been completely achieved, the only consistent feature of the whole stock being grey roofs". I appreciate that that does not imply a lack of a common standard (more perhaps that the standards seem to have changed quite frequently from 1941 onward), but given the difficulties of those years prior to 1948, I wonder if it is possible to be authoritative at this distance in time. Unless, of course, there are further points of reference to consider - GWRSG?

Edited July 1, 2019 by melmoth
clarification

[Miss Prism]

I think it would be useful to be clear which sort of 'brown' stock is being discussed in this near 10-year-old thread.

 

Coach ends had been black since 1912, and ends of NPCCS also had become black by mid-1930s (with it would seem the exception of Siphons), so I see no reason or mention why the ends of the reddish-brown 1942 stock should have been anything other than black.

 

It is probable that the all-over dark brown applied to some stock from the late '20s continued on through WWII, and it wouldn't surprise me if the ends of such unlined stock were also dark brown. The paint used for the all-over brown treatment might have been unvarnished burnt umber with a bit of black thrown in, say r58 g48 b41:

 

 

That said, much stock was never cleaned during WWII, let alone repainted, and would have given the impression of an all-over dark grime livery, regardless of what colour was underneath the surface.
 

[melmoth]

15 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

I think it would be useful to be clear which sort of 'brown' stock is being discussed in this near 10-year-old thread.

 

I started reading here...

 

On 09/06/2019 at 17:41, gwrrob said:

A bump for this thread to ask whether coaches painted in the wartime brown livery had black ends or body colour. I'm looking at this particular clerestory.

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh2494.htm

 

...to which you responded:

 

On 09/06/2019 at 17:50, Miss Prism said:

black ends

 

 

So, we're looking specifically at coaching stock (not NPCCS) painted during WWII.

 

Quote

Coach ends had been black since 1912, and ends of NPCCS also had become black by mid-1930s (with it would seem the exception of Siphons), so I see no reason or mention why the ends of the reddish-brown 1942 stock should have been anything other than black.

 

No, but that's not quite the same as being able to say for certain that it was the case, particularly given the wartime situation and, as you say...

 

Quote

It is probable that the all-over dark brown applied to some stock from the late '20s continued on through WWII, and it wouldn't surprise me if the ends of such unlined stock were also dark brown. 

 

...yes, there is an pre-war photo of a Workman's stock 4-wheeler in Great Western Way which, to my eye at least, appear to have brown ends. Given the circumstances, is it not plausible (at least) that some other all-over brown coaching stock was painted with brown ends during the war? Other simplifications occurred regarding painting specifications - unlined locomotives and black locomotives, for instance - so why not this? This is why I was asking you if you have anything more substantial in terms of reference than a link to the gwr.org site.

 

Quote

That said, much stock was never cleaned during WWII, let alone repainted, and would have given the impression of an all-over dark grime livery, regardless of what colour was underneath the surface.

 

Yes, but as noted in another post above this one still appears to have a uniform body colour underneath all that.

[Miss Prism]

19 hours ago, melmoth said:

is it not plausible (at least) that some other all-over brown coaching stock was painted with brown ends during the war?

 

Yes, it is plausible, especially for coaches nearing scrapping like those old clerestories,

 

The pics on the  Penrhos Junction site give a good perspective on differences/similarities between side and end treatments.

 

 

Edited July 2, 2019 by Miss Prism

[The Johnster]

I've just repainted a coach in 1942 brown livery, an ersatz C63 all third made from cut'n' Airfixe B set coaches so I don't feel guilty about misrepresenting history, for Cwmdimbath.  In fact this coach is a double cheat because it is in BR crimson on one side and 1942 brown on the other.  It is numbered a 5624, but I make no claim to it being a scale model of that or any other coach.  If I have read the various sources correctly, this livery was only used between 1942 and 1943, then revrting to chocolate and cream, but I was under the impression that it lasted until 1945.  Some coaches were not lined, especially non-gangwayed and auto trailers, but some were; I have chosen not to line 5624.  It will have the number on the left hand end (BR numbers went on the RH end), G W R intials centrally, and the coat of arms below the intitials.  I have a couple of worked up Triang shorty clerestories in workman's service in the nondescript brown version of this livery, heavily weathered, and this coach will be far from clean in service on the layout.

 

AFAI can tell, there were two brown liveries used on GW coaches, this wartime austerity version, a sort of milk chocolate colour, and a darker brown similar to that used on NPCCS but with passenger insignia and numbers from the late 1920s until nationalisation for workmen's and similar stock.  Some NPCCS was painted in this livery in early BR days, and possibly workmen's coaches painted in the first 6 months of 1948 were as well, but later workmens' were given BR crimson, including 4 wheelers and clerestories.  These worked in fairly dirty conditions and the liveries were difficult to discern in service.

[gwrrob]

Any photos please as I fancy doing one myself the same way.

[The Johnster]

She'll be ready for her photo when I've finished the numbers, each one has to be put on individually and dried and sealed befor the next one is put on.  I'm using a HMRS sheet and there are no made up numbers or part numbers; the good news is that there's only 4 of them.  Currently having cup of tea and chat with the squeeze while 5 is going off, ready to do 6 now!  Will post photo later or tomorrow.  G W R and the twin shields are already done.

[Hal Nail]

14 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I've just repainted a coach in 1942 brown livery, an ersatz C63 all third made from cut'n' Airfixe B set coaches so I don't feel guilty about misrepresenting history, for Cwmdimbath.  In fact this coach is a double cheat because it is in BR crimson on one side and 1942 brown on the other.  It is numbered a 5624, but I make no claim to it being a scale model of that or any other coach. 

I've been toying with the same in 7mm from the Dapol brake 3rds from the 4 coach set. 

 

Not sure if i've understood above correctly - are you saying there is a reason this probably isn't to scale? I was under the impression the compartments are the same size so it ought to work in theory....

 

My B set is crimson one side and maroon the other. Makes total sense but I still feel slightly guilty about doing that!

[gwrrob]

Are the old Comet instruction sheets still available to download to get information on any build.

[The Johnster]

36 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

are you saying there is a reason this probably isn't to scale? I

It purports to be a C63, a 57' 9 compartment all third, but close examination reveals that there is an uneven spacing of the compartments where the original Airfix first class compartments intrude, and it sits on an unalterd 60' Airfix chassis, so is overlength by 12mm, 3 scale feet.  It is very much a 'layout' coach and looks passable so long as you don't run it coupled to 57 footers, in which chase it's 'longcomings' are highlighted.  It would, I think, be even more obviously overlength in GW choc/cream as the compartment spacing anomaly would be highligthed more as well.

 

No probably about it; it isn't to scale, but captures the general look of a C63 reasonably well and I can live with it.  I'd be more reluctiant to cut up 7mm Dapols though; these are much better models than the Airfix 4mm and the larger scale makes the anomlaies more obvious. 

 

 

[The Fatadder]

1 hour ago, gwrrob said:

Are the old Comet instruction sheets still available to download to get information on any build.

Some are, but not all

it’s on the wizard website now which is not as easy to find stuff on as the old website.  

[Hal Nail]

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

No probably about it; it isn't to scale, but captures the general look of a C63 reasonably well and I can live with it.  I'd be more reluctant to cut up 7mm Dapols though; these are much better models than the Airfix 4mm and the larger scale makes the anomlaies more obvious.

 

Ah yes, makes sense. That's why i've not tried it with the brake composite but they make a 7mm brake third as well with evenly spaced compartments and ribs on the roof. Trouble is i'd have to buy a 4 coach set and dispose of the 2 middle coaches which is a risky outlay.

 

I think its the C61 I was planning as well which is 60 foot over the corners.

Edited January 17, 2021 by Hal Nail

[WillCav]

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

It purports to be a C63, a 57' 9 compartment all third, but close examination reveals that there is an uneven spacing of the compartments where the original Airfix first class compartments intrude, and it sits on an unalterd 60' Airfix chassis, so is overlength by 12mm, 3 scale feet.  It is very much a 'layout' coach and looks passable so long as you don't run it coupled to 57 footers, in which chase it's 'longcomings' are highlighted.  It would, I think, be even more obviously overlength in GW choc/cream as the compartment spacing anomaly would be highligthed more as well.

 

...

 

 

Johnster,

 

Just looked in Russell and it says it should be 61'2" (60' + bow ends) so your coach isn't 3' too long.

 

You could make one easily with 3 b set coaches cutting at the door lines, but that would be a waste unless they were dirt cheap.

 

What were those coaches used for? And which bogies did they sit on? There's not much info in Russell.

 

Thanks

 

Will

[Hal Nail]

42 minutes ago, WillCav said:

Johnster,

 

Just looked in Russell and it says it should be 61'2" (60' + bow ends) so your coach isn't 3' too long.

 

You could make one easily with 3 b set coaches cutting at the door lines, but that would be a waste unless they were dirt cheap.

 

What were those coaches used for? And which bogies did they sit on? There's not much info in Russell.

 

In one of the Keith Pirt volumes there is a 9 compartment all third shown at Looe as a branch strengthener. Exactly the same body style with the recessed handles of the Airfix brake composite and on the same 7 foot bogies. I thought it was a C61 but again little info in the various books but there is a drawing online.

[The Johnster]

Getting my C diagrams muxed ip, sorry.  Yes, it is a 60' coach but my cut'n'shut is not in any sense an accurate scale model because the window spacings are off, not to mention the crude Airfix underframe.  The prototypes were used in the South Wales and Bristol areas as loose suburban thirds, and ran on Collett 7' bogies, some lasting until the very early 60s and most until replacement by dmus in the late 50s.  Having just finished another cup of tea, I am now going to finish it off, and take photos when I'm done to post here.

[The Johnster]

 

Ok, here's the promised foe toe.  It's the early 50s, 5642 was last painted in Austerity plain brown in 1942 and has had a hard life since, so she's looking a bit careworn and dirty.  The main body colour is Tamiya XF-10 Flat Brown acrylic, built up in dilute layers on the plain maroon 1956 BR livery that forms the undercoat and is still the livery on the other side, transfers are HMRS, and the weathering is my standard weathering gunk.  The colour is not far off 1942 brown, and the coach is assumed to be unlined (I have a vague plan to do a Hornby A30 in the lined brown livery, perhaps with 7' bogies as an A27.  I have not picked out the handles and grab rails in brass paint as it would be a bit of an anomaly on such a filthy coach, sadly all too representative of much of the stock that BR were handed at nationalisation!  She is now in service as a general spare/strengthener, clearly due an overhaul and repaint into BR crimson.

 

I've been given another Airfix B set coach which will have to be altered to something else as none of these B sets were allox Tondu, though E147s were.  Haven't decided what yet; one idea is a K42 BG with a Comet body, but I'm investitgating a recssed guard's door Brake 3rd, perhaps attainable by removing/filling some door lines and  handle/grabrails, and filling in some windows.  We'll see. 

 

I don't like the flush glazed windows on Airfix coaches becuase the prism effect of the thick clear plastic creates an illusion that the window reveals are too small, so replace it with 'normal' back glazing; of course, this loses the flush glazing effect but my view is that it is the lesser of evils.