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Langford Lane & Marlingford - GWR 1940s Oxfordshire


The Great Bear
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  • RMweb Gold

 

 

(re the release crossover and working it by a ground frame)

So would this still be a lever in the box (but just didn't move the point) and in this case no ground signal

 

The Western used two methods for releasing ground frames - either a lever in the frame or a special release instrument mounted on the block shelf above the lever frame (alas I haven't got pic of one readily to hand). You can quite happily say you are using either for your period.

The layout a mixture of Marlow and Wallingford. The latter was One Engine In Steam (does that make a difference to this issue.) So let's say it's more akin to Marlow - which is where I got the split signal idea from, except there the is only one entrance to the yard. Could the right (small) arm refer to both yard entrances?

 

Trains envisaged:

  • Autotrain - normal branch passenger working and milk traffic to junction with main line
  • Branch goods train (or mixed train) - Pannier or Collett Goods
  • Couple of times a day through working to somewhere bigger - 61xx + B-set
  • Occassional excursion traffic - excuse for the larger stuff that would otherwise be out of place (hence Marlow as an inspiration)

The above is a bit busier than the prototypes used for inspiration, but after a while one gets bored with just the 14xx and the autocoach! So it's possible that at times there could be more than one train e.g. goods train in proces of being shunted in the loop, autotrain working on plaform line.

 

Hope that gives some ideas as to how to do the home signal?

Jon

 

Right - excellent set of notes. I would suggest you do it this way for the period you have in mind -

Retain your proposed full size running signal arm for the route into the station and the short arm to its left (as seen on approach) to read towards the loop, the two lines leading off to the right are never going to see a train arriving in them so they are always going to be served only by shunting movements. So you could quite legitimately - for your period - have a full size bracket out to that side of the main post but with a double disc signal mounted on it instead of a doll and a couple of short arms - 100% prototypical for the late 1940s through to at least the 1960s.

What I would also suggest (I often do, partly for practical reasons but also because I happen to think they look good) is that you should have another full size semaphore for departing trains by the bridge where you go off scene and that it should have a subsidiary Shunt Ahead arm mounted beneath it - you are going to have to shunt out a fair way to serve all your sidings so it should be covered properly with signals. The sort of thing I have in mind (to the older style but they lasted well into the 1960s) is shown below but you would use a straight post, no need to bracket at that site.

Overall I think it should look ok without looking 'over signalled' as you have a reasonable distance between all the 'taller' signals - best of luck with it all as it could turn out to be a very attractive little layout in a confined space.

post-6859-0-66342200-1295727680_thumb.jpg

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Mike, excellent - thank you very much for your response

 

Retain your proposed full size running signal arm for the route into the station and the short arm to its left (as seen on approach) to read towards the loop, the two lines leading off to the right are never going to see a train arriving in them so they are always going to be served only by shunting movements. So you could quite legitimately - for your period - have a full size bracket out to that side of the main post but with a double disc signal mounted on it instead of a doll and a couple of short arms - 100% prototypical for the late 1940s through to at least the 1960s.

 

OK, that gives me both options depending on whether I think the signalling was renewed or not. Would the discs go side by side on the bracket to the right? Now to check which Ratio kit(s) to bash.

 

What I would also suggest (I often do, partly for practical reasons but also because I happen to think they look good) is that you should have another full size semaphore for departing trains by the bridge where you go off scene and that it should have a subsidiary Shunt Ahead arm mounted beneath it - you are going to have to shunt out a fair way to serve all your sidings so it should be covered properly with signals. The sort of thing I have in mind (to the older style but they lasted well into the 1960s) is shown below but you would use a straight post, no need to bracket at that site.

 

Is that the Advanced Starter? Again looks like I butcher a home/distant kit by making my own lower shunt arm. On a single track line how does the shunt arm work, would not the engine have to have the token to be on that section of line so what's the difference between the shunt arm being lowered and the main arm lowered? (That's not really explained in the books I've got.)

 

Overall I think it should look ok without looking 'over signalled' as you have a reasonable distance between all the 'taller' signals - best of luck with it all as it could turn out to be a very attractive little layout in a confined space.

 

Thanks my modelling is in its infancy so attractive might be too much to hope for, but the aim is to practise on something manageable and not worry too much if I mess up.

 

Once again thanks for taking your time to help

 

Jon

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  • RMweb Gold

The 61xx seemed to be more common on mainline jobs such as Paddington to Reading stoppers or freights the 45xx were much more Branch Line jobs the 4575s had more water capacity and were useful on cross country lines or longer branch lines. That being said if you have a 61xx use it for now I'm sure someone will turn up a photo of one on a small brach somewhere. The 43xx had the same route capability as a 61xx but might be a bit tight for your layout.

Don

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  • RMweb Gold

OK, that gives me both options depending on whether I think the signalling was renewed or not. Would the discs go side by side on the bracket to the right? Now to check which Ratio kit(s) to bash.

The discs would be mounted vertically in a single casting - the pics below show the basic structure of such a signal (looking a bit odd because it lacks the enamel disc 'faces').

 

Is that the Advanced Starter? Again looks like I butcher a home/distant kit by making my own lower shunt arm. On a single track line how does the shunt arm work, would not the engine have to have the token to be on that section of line so what's the difference between the shunt arm being lowered and the main arm lowered? (That's not really explained in the books I've got.)

 

Jon

 

I'm not surprised that it's not properly explained in the books you've got because as far as i know there's only one book that does explain it - and not for single lines! The signal it's below would be the Advanced Starter in your case (the one in my pic is a fiddle - the form of the signal is correct but the way it is used on that 'preserved' railway is not correctmellow.gif). It would be used to authorise a shunt to pass the running signal for as far as may be necessary for the purpose of shunting. Then it becomes complicated - but in modelling terms you needn't worry about all this - the GWR used a signal for shunting into single line sections but its Regulations were rather coy on the subject and on single lines only provided for shunting outside (i.e to in rear of) the Home Signal, and without a token, and from both ends of a single line section at the same time if circumstances so requiredblink.gif, and you couldn't have a token out to do that! However in some places special 'Shunting Tokens' were used. So here you could in fact lower the Shunt Ahead arm without a token being out.

BTW as far as use of a 61XX is concerned they were not uncommon on London Division branches on through trains (i.e through off the branch to elsewhere) but weren't used on the Wallingford branch (it had no through trains) although they possibly got to Marlow as it saw occasional 'big' engines. But the main reason for not seeing them on the branches was because they were too busy elsewhere.

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Is that the Advanced Starter? Again looks like I butcher a home/distant kit by making my own lower shunt arm. On a single track line how does the shunt arm work, would not the engine have to have the token to be on that section of line so what's the difference between the shunt arm being lowered and the main arm lowered? (That's not really explained in the books I've got.)

 

 

Hello Jon,

 

There is another option to consider in order to avoid things looking over signalled and that's to put a banner repeater on the scenic side of the bridge. This would do away with your Advanced Starter and Shunt Ahead issue and would look a little more realistic as a shunt ahead would not normally be used in this situation. In real life the advance starter (if there was one) would have been put in the right place to cater for any shunting moves.

 

I have seen the banner option used on a couple of exhibition layouts and it looks the part.

 

Keep up the good work.

 

F

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  • RMweb Gold

Hello Jon,

 

There is another option to consider in order to avoid things looking over signalled and that's to put a banner repeater on the scenic side of the bridge. This would do away with your Advanced Starter and Shunt Ahead issue and would look a little more realistic as a shunt ahead would not normally be used in this situation. In real life the advance starter (if there was one) would have been put in the right place to cater for any shunting moves.

 

F

 

 

 

Alas not the case on the GW where there were umpteen examples of Starters/Advance Starters with subsidiary Shunt Ahead arms - it seemed like almost every station had them on the OWW (although clearly they didn't but there were a lot down there), e.g. there was at least one at every station between Twyford and Didcot (Goring had two and Reading had three but circumstances were different at the latterwink.gif), they were present at the majority of stations on the single line Wells branch, they were placed beneath 16% of the main line section signals west of Plymouth, and so on. What was more unusual on the Western were banner repeaters - the Western wasn't exactly averse to them but always seemed to use them very sparingly - especially on branch lines - preferring, I think, to get signals properly sited for sighting wherever possible rather than shove in repeaters. Placing a signal in advance of a bridge for example was normally something Western sighting folk would be very loathe to do in my experience and judging by examples.

 

The Western also had some very different Regulations from the other Railways when it came to shunting into single line sections with - and this might come as a surprise - a far greater latitude (or perhaps recognition of the ability of staff to behave responsibly) to allow such things to take place without drawing a token than was the case elsewhere. And no indication of any consequential problems between the time when some of such practices were again officially confirmed c.1912 (without getting out the Minute Books to check the date) and the end of the Company, or indeed the end of the most of its 'different' Signalling Regulations in 1960.

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there was at least one at every station between Twyford and Didcot (Goring had two and Reading had three but circumstances were different at the latter

they were present at the majority of stations on the single line Wells branch

they were placed beneath 16% of the main line section signals west of Plymouth, and so on.

 

I don't disagree with that.

 

It's just that is looks as though the OP is going to end up with a layout with the advance starter and home signals about 1 1/2 coach lengths apart :blink: I doubt your list above has that situation.

 

Therefore another option. Just assume that the advance starter is the other side of the bridge and that there is adequate sighting.

 

F

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  • RMweb Gold

It's just that is looks as though the OP is going to end up with a layout with the advance starter and home signals about 1 1/2 coach lengths apart :blink: I doubt your list above has that situation.

 

F

 

Depends on the length of the coachwink.gif From a quick look the shortest distance I've found between a stop signal and one in advance of it with a Shunt Ahead subsidiary is 73 yards - just about a 4575 tank and 3 coaches so allowing for the fact that we selectively compress distance and train lengths anyway that's probably not too different in visual terms and the GW was a great one for planting stop signals at fairly close intervals. There are a couple of examples which I'm aware of which were probably closer but I haven't got any distance data for them (one was no more than the length of an 0-6-0T plus two coaches while the other was the length of two crossovers) and examples around the 100 yard mark down to the 70-80yd (ish) distance were not at all uncommon - on both main lines and branches and surviving in a number of cases into the 1960s or occasionally into the '70s.

 

So in fact it wasn't really an unusual scenario, and when you think about it the distance would be less than a typical train length because that was why the Shunt Ahead was there in the first place.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Finally some pictures showing progress.

 

Here's an overview of where I've got to. The track is down permanently for the running lines on trackbed ready for ballasting when I get the courage. A few buildings are done, other items mocked up in rough to get a feel for things.

p350496068-4.jpg

 

The goods yard:

p72963424-4.jpg

The crane is mock up, I've one to assemble as is the loading gauge. Not sure about the latter, thought I needed one and siting it with the layout of the sidings restricted where it could go, not sure whether need the arm over the back siding or not, makes a different design I suppose! Oh and excuse the jerry-rigged electics visible!

 

I'm inclined not to underlay the yard and put directly on the board so to need less to make up ground up to top of the sleepers. I'm not sure what products to use for the ground here and the ballast, should it be ash?

 

My stab at dealing with the awkward corner:

p172413472-4.jpg

It's a bit of a squeeze between the corner of the goods shed and the adjoining factory! The factory is a rough go, to see what would fit and how I could get a roof end detail to hide the corner. Not sure if I've seen a roof like this in reality. Perhaps put a sign on the face toward the station?

 

View of the corner again with the station:

p142566865-4.jpg

 

 

 

The advance starter signal and home signal:

p33256303-4.jpg

 

It's just that is looks as though the OP is going to end up with a layout with the advance starter and home signals about 1 1/2 coach lengths apart :blink: I doubt your list above has that situation.

 

Depends on the length of the coachwink.gif

 

Yep, just about one and half coaches. Excuse the upper quadrant signals, I've got some proper ones yet to assemble, with a distant/home one to change arms on to give the lower shunt arm. It looks worse as shown as my old Hornby junction signal is too big - unless one's trying to sight it over the bridge. But seeing as the train's crawling at dead slow pace around a 1st radius curve I'm inclined to overlook this! (Or it should be if the 14xx could go over the insulfrog curved point slowly without stalling :angry:. That's on the list to fix.)

 

 

 

The creamery:

p409514352-4.jpg

A mock of the one at Wallingford, except the siding and canopy is longer. Please exuse the crudity of this model, I didn't have time to build it to scale or paint it.:D And it's on stilts as I go the height relative to the track wrong.

 

Finally, the view along the tracks to the station and engine shed:

p24584227-4.jpg

(I like this angle!)

 

Once I've decided what to do with the yard, I can move forward. I'm not sure what the best order to hit things is. Is it a good idea to leave ballasting until the very end once everything else is done or once happy with running fix the track?

 

Thanks for looking and the helpful input to date.

 

Jon

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That certainly is a bit of progress biggrin.gif

 

With regard to the ballasting, I would certainly leave it until you are happy with the running and electrics - I think I ballasted mine too early as I have problems with my double slip that I am not now in a position to rectify. Well, not without major work!

 

I do like the pic of the 14xx - might be tempted to post a pic of mine smile.gif

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  • RMweb Gold

Coming along nicely and operating it or not to let you get too bored. But one question - how easy is it to reach over that backscene into the hidden sidings? BTW I have (only once) seen a double loading gauge but it wasn't like your idea as it reached out over two lines from one sideblink.gif and I think you could quite legitimately get away with an everyday, single, one with wagons being shunted to check the loading (more operating entertainment - don't go under the bridgewink.gif)

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But one question - how easy is it to reach over that backscene into the hidden sidings?

 

Impossible!

 

p302790417-4.jpg

 

Trains are marshalled in bits using stub coming off at the bottom. I need to add a fold down section to give some more room for this or somthing similar. Luckily so far I've had only a few derailments, when I have had to hook stock out which is a pain and with risk of damage - someone previously suggested foam pads on tongs which I ought to do. In a few months time the layout hopefully will be moving to a bigger space, so this should be a short term issue. At that stage some re-planning and re-modelling of the layout will happen but for now I thought I'd run trains and progress with the modelling, for practise, but mindfull that some things can be changed for the better then perhaps fitting this layout into a grander plan.

 

BTW I have (only once) seen a double loading gauge but it wasn't like your idea as it reached out over two lines from one sideblink.gif and I think you could quite legitimately get away with an everyday, single, one with wagons being shunted to check the loading (more operating entertainment - don't go under the bridgewink.gif)

 

Good, that's easier to do, will put it on the line coming out of the goods shed/loading dock

 

Edit: happended to notice in the book on the Henley Branch a double gauge with central post, must have been where I got the idea from subconsciously. But a single one much more appropriate for my little station and could add to shunting fun as suggested.

 

Thanks again for your input

 

Jon

Edited by The Great Bear
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  • 1 month later...

Having bought some hand point levers to place in due course, came back to this:

 

The Western used two methods for releasing ground frames - either a lever in the frame or a special release instrument mounted on the block shelf above the lever frame (alas I haven't got pic of one readily to hand). You can quite happily say you are using either for your period.

 

I've been wondering how is the ground frame (in my case operating two points on a crossover basis) linked to the unlocking lever in the box, how does the signalman know what position the ground frame operated points are set when the frame is locked again after it has been used by the train crew - simply trust that it is returned to the straight on position?

 

Thanks

 

Jon

 

PS - progress on layout slow, track ballasted and trying to sort out scenic stuff. Not much to show right now. The awkward current ocation of the layout doesn't help so I'm trying to work outward from the buffer stops so I don't crush things when leaning over.

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  • RMweb Gold

 

I've been wondering how is the ground frame (in my case operating two points on a crossover basis) linked to the unlocking lever in the box, how does the signalman know what position the ground frame operated points are set when the frame is locked again after it has been used by the train crew - simply trust that it is returned to the straight on position?

 

Thanks

 

Jon

 

Sorry for the delay in replying (just had a rather busy few days dealing with matters on some 1:1 scale bits of railways so no time to drop in here). In most cases some form of communication would be provided between the ground frame and the signalbox so the Signalman would be told that the ground frame had been restored to its normal positions. Additionally if the ground frame was mechanically released the Signalman would not be able to replace the release lever to normal until the crossover(s) were correctly set and the ground frame levers were i their normal position. If the GF was released by an Annett's Key the key could not be restored to the release instrument until the ground frame levers were put back to their normal position.

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Thanks for your help again Mike, no problem whatsoever about the delay.

 

In most cases some form of communication would be provided between the ground frame and the signalbox so the Signalman would be told that the ground frame had been restored to its normal positions.

 

Looks like I might need to add small cabinet or box next to the ground frame lever for a bell system to the box which although close view would be obsured by carriages. If so a nice bit of detail to add to the to do list. The release lever in the box (let's say it's in the main lever frame), am I right in thinking it would be blue top/brown bottom?

 

Sorry for asking so many questions: I'm picking up lots of interesting bits of knowledge along the way.

 

Jon

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  • RMweb Gold

Thanks for your help again Mike, no problem whatsoever about the delay.

 

 

 

Looks like I might need to add small cabinet or box next to the ground frame lever for a bell system to the box which although close view would be obsured by carriages. If so a nice bit of detail to add to the to do list. The release lever in the box (let's say it's in the main lever frame), am I right in thinking it would be blue top/brown bottom?

 

Sorry for asking so many questions: I'm picking up lots of interesting bits of knowledge along the way.

 

Jon

 

Good idea to add something like that Jon. I think it would probably be a Blue/Brown lever but I'm not absolutely certain.

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  • RMweb Gold

Hi,

just read through the thread, if there was an award for top plan, this would top the list. You've managed to get the atmosphere of the prototypes in a space most would have at best gone for N in, at worst taken up another hobby. An excellent plan, turning in to a very interesting project. Heaven knows what you'll acheive if you get a bit more space ;) .

 

Regards, Matt

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Hi,

just read through the thread, if there was an award for top plan, this would top the list. You've managed to get the atmosphere of the prototypes in a space most would have at best gone for N in, at worst taken up another hobby. An excellent plan, turning in to a very interesting project. Heaven knows what you'll acheive if you get a bit more space ;) .

 

Regards, Matt

 

Thank you for your extremely kind comments Matt :blush:

 

At the moment the plan's by the far the best bit, the modelling's going slowly and the standard is...err..variable. But it's a first stab and learning lots of lessons as I go both about modelling and the prototype (thanks in no small measure to the input of people here, especially Stationmaster). The layout may be small, but the additional mess I've created in almost every part of the house isn't. So an agreed exile to a posh shed is in the offing in a couple of months' time.

 

An update showing some progress hopefully soon.

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  • RMweb Gold

Here's a random question:

 

What on earth does AICMFP stand for?

 

Jonte

 

PS Great idea :)

 

 

I wondered that too, until I realised I'd answered the question earlier in the thread.... :blush_mini:

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  • 1 month later...

Time for an update. The track has been ballasted throughout and have been concentrating on the station and engine shed area, as that's in the far corner and then try and work outward. Here's a shot of the progress:

 

p234336734-5.jpg?sn=

 

There's a bit more detail to go in the area in front of the water tower, a ground frame as discussed in previous posts and some things to sort like the joints in the plaftorms. At some stage I'll make some better chimneys for the station, they betray its 1970s Hornby origin.

 

The untidy edge of ballast in front of the patrorm is result of using the chamfered woodland scenics foam base and ballasting it then reasiling that the ballast would be laid to the plafrorm. So I cut that back square and infilled using DAS, hence the orange mess.

 

The Preiser figures whilst very nice are a bit small, people on benches feet of the ground. Not a problem for those in coaches but on platforms a bit obvious. Had better brush up on my painting skills and have a go at some Monty's figures I also have got.

 

Thanks for looking.

 

Jon

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