WR 'Q' sets using Mk I Subs

[jointline]

Were 'Q' sets actually ever completely formed of Mk I suburban coaches in the London Division of the Western Region? My memory (admittedly a bit hazy at this distance of time) is that the Hawksworth and earlier suburbans were still being used right up to dieselisation, and suburban coaches, Mark I's included, seemed to be mixed indiscriminately.

 

However if sets were made up of Mk I's, were 56ft and 63ft coaches used in the same sets?

 

I can't think why not, but I have had trouble finding any photographs that let me positively identify more than the first couple of coaches in a train.

 

Many Thanks!

[The Stationmaster]

There was one set which in its final years was definitely all BR Standard suburban stock but it was that used on one of the through Henley branch commuter trains and I'm not at all sure what it did during the day between its working up from Henley in the morning and its working back in the evening. Apart from anything possibly running up the Northern/Joint Line I'm fairly sure that it was the last non-gangwayed loco hauled set in the London Division but I haven't got a clue what vehicles were formed into it sorry.

[chrisf]

Suburban stock, both GW design and BR standard, was still being used out of Paddington at Easter 1962. I don't recall ever seeing a full set of BR stock but I was only 14 at the time. Given that the WR only had 10 composites [6 long and 4 short] and 34 brake seconds [12 short and 22 long] the scope for full sets was rather limited!

 

In case it is of interest I have notes of the consist of two Q sets from April 1962:

 

W43261 [long BR BS], W46048 [long BR S], W7112W [late Collett C diagram E156], W2654W [Hawksworth S diagram C83], W43101 [short BR BS]. This one was observed with two additional seconds, W46157 and W46033.

 

W433W [Hawksworth BS diagram D132], W2644W [Hawksworth S diagram C83], W7179W [Hawksworth C diagram E166], W46038 [long BR S], W4366W [Collett BS diagram D117]. This one was observed with one additional second, W397W [Hawksworth S diagram C83].

 

In addition there were four suburbans and an unknown number of GW corridor coaches in a set. Forgive me my sins of 48 years ago but I did not record the numbers of the corridor stock. I wonder if this was the Henley set that Stationmaster mentions?

 

Most, but not all, of the vehicles recorded above were in lined maroon.

 

Chris

[The Stationmaster]

Suburban stock, both GW design and BR standard, was still being used out of Paddington at Easter 1962. I don't recall ever seeing a full set of BR stock but I was only 14 at the time. Given that the WR only had 10 composites [6 long and 4 short] and 34 brake seconds [12 short and 22 long] the scope for full sets was rather limited!

 

In case it is of interest I have notes of the consist of two Q sets from April 1962:

 

W43261 [long BR BS], W46048 [long BR S], W7112W [late Collett C diagram E156], W2654W [Hawksworth S diagram C83], W43101 [short BR BS]. This one was observed with two additional seconds, W46157 and W46033.

 

W433W [Hawksworth BS diagram D132], W2644W [Hawksworth S diagram C83], W7179W [Hawksworth C diagram E166], W46038 [long BR S], W4366W [Collett BS diagram D117]. This one was observed with one additional second, W397W [Hawksworth S diagram C83].

 

In addition there were four suburbans and an unknown number of GW corridor coaches in a set. Forgive me my sins of 48 years ago but I did not record the numbers of the corridor stock. I wonder if this was the Henley set that Stationmaster mentions?

 

Most, but not all, of the vehicles recorded above were in lined maroon.

 

Chris

 

Second attempt - last post went off into the ether

 

As I was about the same age as Chris I definitely didn't record any coach numbers back in those days - signals were more my thing - and like him I'm talking from the era of my school days. But when, a few years later I did join the railway a number of folk referred to the replacement of the non-gangwayed stock by the 'big' 13 coach set of gangwayed vehicles and the entertainment that ensued if it was stopped at Twyford West's Inner Home Signal (which I had experienced anyway) and the chap who did the London Division coach working at the time explained why it had been necessary to make the train up to 13 to make up for the loss of seats in the non-gangwayed vehicles when the train had been load 100 or thereabouts. The load 13 didn't last too long after the Hymeks took over in 1963 as it was found they were near incapable of re-starting a train of that size if it was stopped at the Branch Inner Home Signal at Twyford.

 

I might have been mistaken that they were all BR non-gangwayed stock but they certainly seemed like that at one time although the train only ran in that formation - as far as I can recall - for a year or two. My main interest at that time was rapidly disappearing GW locos and the start of the disappearance of GW semaphores from our neck of the woods so that was where any photography money went, and not on coaching stock.

 

Paul Karau's Henley branch book includes several photos of ex GW non-gangwayed stock formed in the through trains including one (showing only the leading vehicle) dated 1960 and two undated ones but probably no earlier than very late 1950s one of which shows a mixed non-gangwayed/gangwayed set as mentioned above by Chris.

[chrisf]

When I wondered about the four suburbans plus gangwayed coaches above it was silly of me to suggest that it might have been the Henley train, for was it not the case that the two Henley commuter sets were used on summer Saturdays to convey the faithful to and from the West Country? That would have been no job for a suburban set!

 

To revert to Jointline's original question, the answer must be Yes. I've just had a quick shufti in the fine book of R C Riley's colour photographs "Steam In England" compiled by Rodney Lissenden and found a shot on page 41 taken in June 1956 of a Q set comprising BR short brake second, Hawksworth second, Hawksworth composite, BR long second and Hawksworth brake second. All we want now is a shot of five BR suburbans all in a row. Keep looking, chaps ...

 

Chris

[robertcwp]

Thanks to Chris for the vehicle numbers.

 

I don't have the 1962 Paddington workings but here are two extracts from the Summer 1961 Paddington Station Workings Book. X indicates gangwayed stock.

 

 

Here is the morning up working of the stock that formed the 6.15 pm from Paddington in 1961:

 

6913 Levens Hall near Maidenhead on the 0748 Henley-Paddington, 14-4-61

 

Some photos from c1961 of Q sets in operation start here.

[jointline]

Thanks to Chris for the vehicle numbers.

 

I don't have the 1962 Paddington workings but here are two extracts from the Summer 1961 Paddington Station Workings Book. X indicates gangwayed stock.

 

 

 

Thanks to everybody for your comments and help. I think it is worth trying to quantify this information while we have a chance! Particular thanks to chrisf for the set numbers, this is really useful, and much as I remember them.

Many thanks also to robertcwp for some really evocative and wonderful pictures of the Western suburban services, which seem to have been less photographed than many other lines. Just a small question: surely the "X" in the "Formation and Working of Trains from Paddington" refers to non-gangwayed stock rather than gangwayed?

My main question has, however, been answered: that short and long Mk1 subs were used in the same trains. I wanted to be sure as I was just about to buy some from Replica Railways.....

With no apologies I also attach a picture taken from my bedroom window with a box Brownie c. 1960, showing a short Mk1 brake (at Hayes).

 

Robert

[chrisf]

Just a small question: surely the "X" in the "Formation and Working of Trains from Paddington" refers to non-gangwayed stock rather than gangwayed?

 

The document from which Robertcwp quotes is not consistent! In carriage working programmes - well, the few that I have seen - X denotes gangwayed coaches. Quite why some gangwayed coaches are shown with X in the station working book and some are not is a very good question. Poor proof-reading, perhaps, or was it a reluctance to state the bleeding obvious? You won't find the X against the formation of the expresses in the station working book, yet they were formed of corridor stock.

 

Another good question is how closely the official documents setting out what should happen corresponded to what actually took place, but perhaps we should keep the lid on that particular can of worms!

 

Chris

[robertcwp]

Just a small question: surely the "X" in the "Formation and Working of Trains from Paddington" refers to non-gangwayed stock rather than gangwayed?

X in the Paddington workings for 1961 is not defined but the Local Coach Programmes that I have seen define it as vehicles that must be corridor stock. In the Paddington books, this is shown only for Class 2 trains as Class 1 are assumed to be formed of gangwayed stock, or at least that is how it appears.

[jointline]

Thanks for the clarification. I've never been quite sure what the 'X' rating meant! The "Formation and Working" books seem consistent only in their inconsistency.....The 'X' was obviously not used for brown vehicles, only coaching stock

 

e.g. 4.30 a.m. Westbury Milk, train 3B18:

 

2 Siphons G (MX)

Van 2nd X )

Compo X ) (SO)

2nd X )

Van 2nd X )

2nd X

Brake Van

Van

E News Van (Footnote reads 'E- gangways to be connected')

E Brake Van (Footnote reads 'E- gangways to be connected')

Brake Van

Q Set (light) (MSX)

 

Interesting train to model. Any ideas on a "light" "Q" Set??!

 

Robert

[The Stationmaster]

 

Another good question is how closely the official documents setting out what should happen corresponded to what actually took place, but perhaps we should keep the lid on that particular can of worms!

 

Chris

 

According to a chap I used to work with - whose final 'traffic' job was as Yard Master at Old Oak Passenger Yard - West London was very good at forming trains to booked formation (but then he had been a supervisor there).

I can't speak for the early '60s but certainly by the end of the decade things were generally kept to booked formation in the London Division but substitutions would made for any vehicles 'marked off' and that might involve a 'nearest possible' or the substitute being tacked on the end to save shunting time although the set would usually be put right (or nearer to 'right') at the next opportunity. Similarly when trains were strengthened it wasn't always possible to get the right vehicle in the correct place so, again, something might not be strictly as per the Circuit Book or notices. In the late '70s Old Oak was absolutely superb at keeping hauled sets correctly formed.

 

 

[robertcwp]

Any ideas on a "light" "Q" Set??!

Empty stock.

[robertcwp]

According to a chap I used to work with - whose final 'traffic' job was as Yard Master at Old Oak Passenger Yard - West London was very good at forming trains to booked formation (but then he had been a supervisor there).

I can't speak for the early '60s but certainly by the end of the decade things were generally kept to booked formation in the London Division but substitutions would made for any vehicles 'marked off' and that might involve a 'nearest possible' or the substitute being tacked on the end to save shunting time although the set would usually be put right (or nearer to 'right') at the next opportunity. Similarly when trains were strengthened it wasn't always possible to get the right vehicle in the correct place so, again, something might not be strictly as per the Circuit Book or notices. In the late '70s Old Oak was absolutely superb at keeping hauled sets correctly formed.

I try to compare carriage workings with photos (or film) of trains. The match is usually very close for regular services, especially those where seats were reservable. The most common variations seem to be to have all of the right vehicles but not necessarily in the right order, to paraphrase Eric Morecambe.