Woodhead Electric Loco Liveries

[keefer]

the EM2 bogies had the same 'offset' as the diesel locos, 8'0" + 7'8", with the 8'0" between the leading and middle axles

as you say, probably due to the way the traction motors are mounted

[hmrspaul]

Thanks for resurrecting this thread. I had overlooked earlier.

 

What is the story behind http://www.railphotoprints.co.uk/index/detail/10271/27000-Y-SheffieldVictoria-1968-CW990.jpg.html which shows 27000 in the later BR green but says it is 1968? Is this correct? The train (shown in another photograph) is all maroon which seems wrong for this late - and there were few unrepainted LMR Porthole coaches left that late.

 

I am interested because I remember seeing a beautifully turned out green EM2 at Manchester Piccadilly. I would guess in 1965 or 66. That slab side shows off the colour to the max.

 

That set of photographs (originally referred to by Andy) http://www.railphotoprints.co.uk/index/gallery/ElectricLocomotives/77s/start/0 also shows that the blue was unlike corporate blue (or chromatic blue which I believe existed)

 

Paul Bartlett

[Andy Y]

http://www.railphoto...ves/77s/start/0 also shows that the blue was unlike corporate blue (or chromatic blue which I believe existed)

 

I'd say that it was closer to a dirty electric blue, there used to be a nice clear shot on Geoff Plumbs Fotopic site of one at Sheff Vic.

 

[charliepetty]

Hi Charlie, did any of the EM2s get electric blue with full yellow ends? (could have been mistaken for BR blue)

Jim

 

No they did not, all ended with small yellow panels, even one ran in Holland!

[00ERmissus]

That set of photographs (originally referred to by Andy) http://www.railphoto...ves/77s/start/0 also shows that the blue was unlike corporate blue (or chromatic blue which I believe existed)

 

Paul Bartlett

 

Can anyone (Charlie?) clarify when electric blue livery actually starting appearing on these locos? 1966 is the most stated but I have also read other articles referring to 'early 60's' and the link above shows a photo in this colour at Sheffield Victoria posted as May 64 - that certainly is nearer to early 60's for me. Given that yellow warning panels started to be standardised after '62 it seems strange a livery introduced in 66 would have been plain. I had a Triang green Electra when I was a child and the forthcoming EM1/2 models from Heljan/Olivia's has sparked my interest again but modelling the late 50's/early 60's, it may be hard for me to justify my preference for this shade!

[coachmann]

I think Electric blue that had been chosen for the LMR ac electrics was applied to a few of the Class EM1 and EM2 locos around 1963-4. In most cases though, it was rail blue that replaced green on the Bo-B0's some years later.

[00ERmissus]

I think Electric blue that had been chosen for the LMR ac electrics was applied to a few of the Class EM1 and EM2 locos around 1963-4. In most cases though, it was rail blue that replaced green on the Bo-B0's.

 

Many thanks Coachman, it's amazing the wealth of information now available to us but sometimes too much of a good thing can lead to confusion and contradiction. I await the finished article from Heljan with interest, it needsto be very good at that price............

[charliepetty]

Can anyone (Charlie?) clarify when electric blue livery actually starting appearing on these locos? 1966 is the most stated but I have also read other articles referring to 'early 60's' and the link above shows a photo in this colour at Sheffield Victoria posted as May 64 - that certainly is nearer to early 60's for me. Given that yellow warning panels started to be standardised after '62 it seems strange a livery introduced in 66 would have been plain. I had a Triang green Electra when I was a child and the forthcoming EM1/2 models from Heljan/Olivia's has sparked my interest again but modelling the late 50's/early 60's, it may be hard for me to justify my preference for this shade!

 

 

Late 63 I would suggest without small yellow panels, in black & white shots you can tell the blue as the yellow panel is slightly smaller.

 

Charlie

[Natalie]

I'd say that it was closer to a dirty electric blue, there used to be a nice clear shot on Geoff Plumb's Fotopic site of one at Sheff Vic.

 

I would agree with this. The date of May 1964 also predates the application of rail blue to anything other than the XP64 set and D1733. Blue repaints I would suggest started once Crewe Works took over from Gorton following its closure. What is not as clear is the period when blue had just been authorised as the new corporate colour. How long did Crewe continue to apply electric blue to its electrics (ie AL1-5 and EM1 and EM2) or did it swap to rail blue (initially with small yellow ends) following the adoption of the corporate scheme in early 1966? Charlie Petty has mentioned the Reddish Depot repaints- were these essentially unofficial- maybe to keep the EM2 locos looking smart or were the EM2 specifically omitted from the corporate blue scheme? There is no doubt that the early blue repaints of the EM2s were electric blue. What is not clear from the photos is did some of them receive rail blue with small yellow ends at a later date.A couple of photos suggest it is possible but unfortunately colour photos are not always clear due to effects of films, printing, ageing, lighting, exposure etc. Looking at EM1s- by the time the first got blue- was it electric or rail blue? I have a list from the Railway Observer based on what locos were in Crewe Works and potentially repainted- I shall try and dig it out. It maybe useful.

[00ERmissus]

I would agree with this. The date of May 1964 also predates the application of rail blue to anything other than the XP64 set and D1733. Blue repaints I would suggest started once Crewe Works took over from Gorton following its closure. What is not as clear is the period when blue had just been authorised as the new corporate colour. How long did Crewe continue to apply electric blue to its electrics (ie AL1-5 and EM1 and EM2) or did it swap to rail blue (initially with small yellow ends) following the adoption of the corporate scheme in early 1966? Charlie Petty has mentioned the Reddish Depot repaints- were these essentially unofficial- maybe to keep the EM2 locos looking smart or were the EM2 specifically omitted from the corporate blue scheme? There is no doubt that the early blue repaints of the EM2s were electric blue. What is not clear from the photos is did some of them receive rail blue with small yellow ends at a later date.A couple of photos suggest it is possible but unfortunately colour photos are not always clear due to effects of films, printing, ageing, lighting, exposure etc. Looking at EM1s- by the time the first got blue- was it electric or rail blue? I have a list from the Railway Observer based on what locos were in Crewe Works and potentially repainted- I shall try and dig it out. It maybe useful.

 

Many thanks chaps! I await with interest anything that can be gleened from the Railway Observer...........................

[charliepetty]

Many thanks chaps! I await with interest anything that can be gleened from the Railway Observer...........................

 

EM2s were never BR Blue, BR had lost interest in them by then, a friend of mine, shift chargehand foreman at Reddish depot stated on many occasions that around that time Duckinfield had the damaged Class 303 units from Glasgow and Reddish painters along with fitting staff were involved in repainting the damaged sets in Caledonian Blue, he clearly said to me there was loads of tins over back in the paint shop at Reddish. I asked him 'Did the repaint the lekkeys with it' his comments were, probably as the boss was too tight to throw it away!!!

 

Was this the 'Chromatic Blue' bit of a mystery eh!

 

They also kept getting memo's from 222 Marlebone Road re the non-standard roof colours in BR Blue.

[daveyb]

This thread has many good photos that show both EM1 & EM2s in green and blue with primrose rooves, but I am not convinced that the Rail Blue EM2s in later years had primrose rooves. I haven't done an exhaustive search, but I'm becoming sure that the yellow roof went with the FYE arriving:

 

Good clear shot of a blue SYE with yellow roof and lion here: http://www.flickr.co...ol-1396276@N21/

 

Other shot here 1974 BFYE with what looks clearly dark rooves: http://farm8.staticf...b6d8d6dda_z.jpg

 

Is there any evidence that the primrose roof was standard later as they stand out like a bulldog parts on the pics of the models (and I think this may contribute to the complaints about the front view - won't help the ride height!) and they don't seem to be in any BFYE shot Iv'e ever seen - the covering of dirt theory would not give such a complete of uniform covering.

 

 

Incidentally I didn't realise there was a medium brunswick and a dark brunswick green as Charlie Petty states earlier in this thread.

[DaveF]

My own photos of various Class 76s in blue suggest a mix of light and dark roof variants. I wonder how much of the light colour is due to deposits from the overhead wiring?

 

A couple of my photos below.

 

 

 

David

[Alan76]

The light colour - yellow or buff or whatever - is the paint. All roofs were painted the same. The dark areas are dirt that has collected there. Some of it is certainly stuff that has been scraped off the contact wire by the action of the pantograph, but some will just be the general muck that get on the roofs of all railway vehicles. We know that the MSW contact wire got dirty because when the EM1s entered service the intention was that they would run with only the rear pantograph 9in direction of travel) raised. But problems with dirt affecting current collection led to a change and both pans raised became the norm.

 

Alan

[Electra666]

Looking at photos of the EM2 Society's preserved Electra in BR black livery, I'm just trying to work out the colour of the roof. In the photos the roof looks a metallic dark gray, but is it supposed to be black like the body, or was it originally silver/graphite?

Any advice would be much appreciated.

[John76]

Looking at photos of the EM2 Society's preserved Electra in BR black livery, I'm just trying to work out the colour of the roof. In the photos the roof looks a metallic dark gray, but is it supposed to be black like the body, or was it originally silver/graphite?

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Electra666

 

The roof is black. Just the same as the rest of the loco but covered in dust. I’m pretty sure it was repainted into its original colour scheme back in 2003 / 2004 for its 50th Birthday.

 

John76

[E3109]

Just to add to this, I don't believe any EM1s received Electric Blue although I'm happy to be corrected.

 

If you look at colour photos of BSYP EM1s they seem to be Rail Blue, or at least an early form of it. Or perhaps the homegrown mix that Charlie referred to. Definitely not Electric Blue, in my opinion.

 

I know you shouldn't rely on photos but it's all we've got, unless anyone is daft enough to scrape some paint off 26020 (which did receive this livery).

 

Some locos do indeed appear to be in Electric Blue with FYE. These are abandoned ones, best depicted by the 'asbestos 7' 76002/4/43/48/50/52/55. The Rail Blue paint has faded due to extended storage outside, rather like withdrawn Westerns did at Swindon Works for example.

 

One or two others appeared in this faded condition but re-entered service. 76033 springs to mind, and I think 76038 (the former 76050/26050 'Stentor' ) before they were converted to air-only and MW.

[Electra666]

Thanks John76 re the original roof colour and now another question. The cabside numbers on the original black em2s appears larger and in a steam loco font than subsequently used. If so, what was the size of the numbers and were they straw coloured instead of white?

[Nearholmer]

Who actually designed these locos?

 

They are cited as an LNER design, but some contemporary sources use language that implies that most of the design work was done by metro-vick, which would be very typical for the time.

 

Somewhere, I’ve got a set of the original LNER tender documents for the electrification, which I ‘inherited’ when I left BR(S), where they had been received in a document swap between the LNER and SR, where the two teams of electrical engineers seem to have been comparing notes very freely. What is surprising is how thin the specification is, a bare few pages, setting an ‘outcome objective’, and leaving all the detail to the bidders. IIRC it includes locomotives, but, if I can find it, I will check. It might cover only the electrical content of the locos, not the large mechanical elements. I think MV had a working tie-up with Beyer-Peacock even before they formed a loco-building JV in 1949, though, so BP may have had a hand in things.