Rebuilding Hornby GWR Clerestories and other rolling stock, LMS wagons from p4

[Darwinian]

I need some clerestory coaches for my circa 1928-30 Welsh Valleys layout. I picked up a couple of second hand Hornby ones (the new long ones not the old triang type) and I know 247 developments do replacement sides.

Does anyone have any experience of these or how much work is involved . The roof/sides look to be a single moulding but the ends appear separate so they look a good starting point:) .

Any advice gratefully recieved,I couldn't find anything on here using the search but I've read most of Coachman's threads. Hoping to start on them in the New Year.

Adrian.

[mswjr]

Mate, ive got a couple of these they have not been rebuilt, but i did strip them to paint the sliding window frames ,as all gwr coachs have this,and yes the roof and sides are all in one,they will come abart quite easily but the glazing is stuck on really really well and i nearly scrapped that trying to get it off , others on here will give more advice hope this helps a bit.

mswjr

[DonB]

Have a look at

http://www.gwr.org.uk/index.html

where there is a section devoted to clerestories, including modifications.

This site was the brainchild of Mikkel of this parish, but has recently been taken over by someone else (details on the site).

[Adrian Wintle]

The 247 Developments (ex-Bettabitz) sides are very nice, but there is a fair bit of prep work involved since they have separate ventilator and droplight etches. The clerestory sections are a bit problematic since, unless you are using the C15 or D29 sides which are the same diagrams as the Hornby coaches, the windows don't line up with the existing plastic ones (and there isn't a lot of structure to hack new ones into). The three corridor (D29,C15, D40) sides re-use the Hornby ends, while the non-gangwayed coaches like the Falmouth Coupe (E39) or the C14 have end etches. Using these sides is really just using the same tecniques as any other brass sides overlaid onto an RTR coach, with a bit of added complexity for the non-corridor diagrams mentioned above, the restaurant (H2/7 - I forget which of the two it actually is, but it can't make both), the slip coach (F9), and the L10 (which is an entirely different animal because it isn't the same length as the others). The D40 is useful because it is the opposite 'hand' to the D29, allowing you to make a train with the corridor down one side bookended by vans.

 

The Hornby clerestories are assembled as follows - the body (sides/roof/end retainer) is a single moulding, clipped to the underframe at the ends. The ends then slide out of this and the clerestory unclips from it. In essence they are the same construction as the old 'generic underframe' Hornby coaches (GWR Collett etc.).

 

Adrian

[Darwinian]

Thanks for the helpful comments everyone. From Adrian's comments these sound like a fairly straightforward re-build so long as I keep to the original diagrams:rolleyes: , so I guess that's what I'll do with this pair at least.

 

The end gangways on the models are rather crude, would a keen systems gangway fit the bill here? My layout will have very gentle curves on the passenger lines at least (B6 C&L turnouts at the tightest points).

 

I looked into using the old Triang style clerestories, as shown on the GWR modelling site mentioned above, but decided to try the newer ones first.

 

Adrian

[Adrian Wintle]

Thanks for the helpful comments everyone. From Adrian's comments these sound like a fairly straightforward re-build so long as I keep to the original diagrams:rolleyes: , so I guess that's what I'll do with this pair at least.

 

The end gangways on the models are rather crude, would a keen systems gangway fit the bill here? My layout will have very gentle curves on the passenger lines at least (B6 C&L turnouts at the tightest points).

 

I looked into using the old Triang style clerestories, as shown on the GWR modelling site mentioned above, but decided to try the newer ones first.

 

Adrian

 

Slaters used to sell the working scissors gangway from their Toplights as a separate item, but it doesn't appear to be on their website anymore. Dart Castings/MJT sell a working GWR gangway that might fit the bill. The only thing Keen has that might work are the Centenary gangways.

 

If you start playing with the short clerestories, 247 Developments has some quite nice white metal Dean bogies (8'6" and 10').

 

As well as the C22 shown on the GWR Modelling site, two Triang brake coaches can be used to approximate a 10 compartment clerestory (Edit: diagram C23 - see below).

 

Adrian

[Horsetan]

Slaters used to sell the working scissors gangway from their Toplights as a separate item, but it doesn't appear to be on their website anymore. ....

 

Ask CooperCraft, as they took over quite a bit of Slaters' 4mm scale production in recent months, and coach components were definitely part of this.

 

Masokits also do a scissors gangway etch kit - complex but it works.

[Mikkel]

Just a word of warning on my C22 conversion on the GWR Modelling site - the Hornby coach is in fact a tad too narrow for that diagram, so if that bothers you it may be better to explore other options.

 

If you go ahead with the Bettabitz sides please do post on the progress (I've had some of these lying around for ages and was thinking of using them in the not too distant future).

 

 

[Adrian Wintle]

Just a word of warning on my C22 conversion on the GWR Modelling site - the Hornby coach is in fact a tad too narrow for that diagram, so if that bothers you it may be better to explore other options.

 

If you go ahead with the Bettabitz sides please do post on the progress (I've had some of these lying around for ages and was thinking of using them in the not too distant future).

 

I will try to get around to posting pictures of the C14 I have in progress. It has stalled a bit since I got bored with sweating ventilators on to the sides and clerestory sides, but one side and the ends are in place.

 

The 10-compartment coach I mentioned above is a C23. Using the passenger portions of two Triang brakes gives a body that is a bit long (more like 61' as opposed to 58'), but has the right look if run with shorter coaches. It's also a bit narrow too, as with Mikkel's C22.

 

Adrian

[Barry Ten]

I was looking at some new Hornby clerestories (part of the single wheeler train set) in my local model shop recently, and it seemed to me that the printing used to simulate the panelling was a lot more effective than it used to be - almost a 3-d effect. It certainly looked more acceptable than the original run of models from the early 80s.

[Adrian Wintle]

I was looking at some new Hornby clerestories (part of the single wheeler train set) in my local model shop recently, and it seemed to me that the printing used to simulate the panelling was a lot more effective than it used to be - almost a 3-d effect. It certainly looked more acceptable than the original run of models from the early 80s.

 

It is much more effective - from normal viewing distances it is hard to tell that the coaches aren't panelled. I am hoping they will decide to release some of these coaches separately.

 

Adrian

[Darwinian]

This all sounds very promising:D .

The coaches I have are in the 1934 roundel livery and the lack of panelling is very obvious. Having said that I'm thinking of doing them in the fully panelled out post 1922 livery. I reckon a few would have survived into the early 30s in that livery. I'm sure there was an article on how to do this in MRJ a whle back, just got to find it:blink:

 

Thanks for the tips on gangways I was aware of the masokits ones but not the others.

 

Adrian

[mike morley]

I am about two thirds of the way through doing a C14.

 

One major problem I've had is the instructions, which are aimed specifically at the corridor coaches and have very little relevance to the non-corridor versions. To give just one example of the problems encountered, the letterbox that has to be cut in the Hornby sides needs to be taken far closer to the ends than the instructions state in order to clear the windows of the end compartments. That problem is even worse when it comes to cutting out the sides of the clerestory - you cannot avoid having some of Hornby's original plastic visible behind some of the windows.

When cutting the letterboxes out it is a good idea to leave in at least one of the original pillars near the centre of the coach until the cutting and filing is almost finished. If you dont, the body has so little structural strength it flexes all over the place and makes it very difficult to work on.

 

The etched sides and ends themselves are fine but some of the other bits and pieces on the etch are a bit odd. The door handles, for instance, are extremely strange and the grab handles are a bit on the heavy side. 247, Comet and Roxey all do better replacements for both.

 

One problem I am struggling to overcome concerns the roof. The moulded roof furniture is obviously wrong for the "new" coach being created beneath it and I cannot find a single photograph of a prototype C14 to help me work out what should go where.

I can make an educated guess but that runs the risk of putting in a lot of time and effort into something that turns out to be wrong.

[Darwinian]

Mike,

 

I cannot find any photographs of a C14 either but there is fairly good diagram on page 151 of J.H.Russel's Pictorial Record of Great Western Coaches Part 1. In case you don't have access to a copy I've sumarised what it shows below.

 

There is a gas lamp pot on the clerestory centrally above the door for each compartment. There appear to be two over the toilet cubicles. One on each side, fore or aft of a central pipe/pot. Looking along the coach from the end with the toilet compartment nearest to it this would place the ones closer to this end on the left side. The diagram shows them as just on the flatter part of the roof.

On page 147 of the same book there is a picture of some clerestory roofs with an off-centre pot possibly associated with a toilet on these, but that's just my guess.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Adrian

[Darwinian]

Good grief it's nearly 2013, where did the two years since I started this thread go?

 

I've finally made a start on my GWR clerestories. Progress is likely to be a bit glacial. I'm also building a D-set from 247 dev components so it'll be interesting to see which gets done first!

 

D40 Clerestory side with droplights sweated on and half the ventilators too:

 

 

Notice that the droplight on the corridor vestibule window is narrower than the others. Just for a change I did notice before soldering it in place  !

 

 

Droplights were sweated on using Carrs 188 degree solder and then the toplights were done with 120 degree.

 

Just as a taster, here are the first two bogies for the D set. These are the 247 developments cast ones. No springing needed for 00 on a short wheelbase like these (I hope).

 

 

Happy new year one and all.

 

Darwinian

 

 

 

[Darwinian]

Both sides of the D40 now done. Three of the ventilators fell off when cleaning up so I superglued them back on.

However there do not appear to be enough ventilator etches to do the ones on the clerestory. Think I'll try replicating the etched ones in plasticard.

 

Darwinian

[Darwinian]

 

Guard's lookout duckets being assembled on my simple right angle jig.

 

How are you supposed to glaze these there is a solid panel behind them and they need filling around when fitted?

 

Darwinian

[buffalo]

...How are you supposed to glaze these there is a solid panel behind them and they need filling around when fitted?

You could use a small piece of transparent material cut to shape and held in place with Johnson's Klear or an aircraft modellers' canopy glue, or use something like Micro Kristal Klear to form the window directly. It's a liquid that can be stretched across the gap with a toothpick or similar and will set clear. It's also possible to do the same with a clear drying PVA. All of these after painting.

 

Nick

[Darwinian]

Thanks for the comments and the "likes".

 

I'll be back to work soon so progress is likely to slow down. However I did manage to sort out the clerestory overlays and make the cutouts in the Hornby one. To overcome the obstruction of the clerestory lights, commented on above, I used a piercing saw to fret out only the areas where the window lights would be, leaving the clips for the roof projecting across the gap. It still clips on and off OK and once the brass is on it will hopefully be strong enough.

 

 

 

I have also realised that the 247/Bettabits etch has stretched the length of the compatments a bit to so that the proportions come out better overall (the Horby coach is about a scale foot longer than a real D40). This means the pots for the lamps are in the wrong places and will ahve to be moveed. They should align with the centre of each compartment and with the luggage compartment doors.

 

The lamp top for the toilet has to be moved to the other side of the lower roof too as the D40 is the opposite hand to the Hornby model.

 

I am considering painting and glazing the main sides OFF the main body and then gluing them on and tidying up the ends.

Has anyone tried this?

 

Darwinian

[BernardTPM]

I have also realised that the 247/Bettabits etch has stretched the length of the compatments a bit to so that the proportions come out better overall (the Horby coach is about a scale foot longer than a real D40).

You do wonder how they managed that as it was (when introduced) and all-new model: bogies, body roof, etc. so the length compromise couldn't have had anything to do with using existing parts.

[Adrian Wintle]

 

I have also realised that the 247/Bettabits etch has stretched the length of the compatments a bit to so that the proportions come out better overall (the Horby coach is about a scale foot longer than a real D40). This means the pots for the lamps are in the wrong places and will ahve to be moveed. They should align with the centre of each compartment and with the luggage compartment doors.

You do wonder how they managed that as it was (when introduced) and all-new model: bogies, body roof, etc. so the length compromise couldn't have had anything to do with using existing parts.

 

I'm pretty sure the Hornby model isn't a D40, it is supposed to be a D29, the difference being that a D40 was a van second while the D29 was a van third.

 

Adrian

[Darwinian]

  

I'm pretty sure the Hornby model isn't a D40, it is supposed to be a D29, the difference being that a D40 was a van second while the D29 was a van third.

 

Adrian

Adrian, you are quite right the Hornby model is of a D29 which was 56 feet long (224mm) and the model measures 224.5mm so pretty close. The D40 was only a 54 footer so its a fudge to make it fit the proprietary body. Guess I should have done the D29 instead.

 

I've also got a Falmouth Coupe E39 to do which is a 56 footer but needs 8'6" bogies not the 10' type of the Hornby model.

 

Darwnian

[BernardTPM]

My apologies to Hornby then! Glad to hear that anyway.

[Penrhos1920]

I cannot find a single photograph of a prototype C14 to help me work out what should go where.

I can make an educated guess but that runs the risk of putting in a lot of time and effort into something that turns out to be wrong.

 

the only photo I know of a C14 is in GWR in the 1930s vol.2 fig 214.  The third coach is apparently a C14.  I believe that the authors had much larger photos than those printed and so were able to give a positive ID.

[Adrian Wintle]

Adrian, you are quite right the Hornby model is of a D29 which was 56 feet long (224mm) and the model measures 224.5mm so pretty close. The D40 was only a 54 footer so its a fudge to make it fit the proprietary body. Guess I should have done the D29 instead.

 

I've also got a Falmouth Coupe E39 to do which is a 56 footer but needs 8'6" bogies not the 10' type of the Hornby model.

 

Darwnian

 

The drawing in Russell shows the D40 as a 56' coach like the D29, the difference being that the D40, being built as a van second, had 6' compartments and a 3'11" lav rather than 5'6" and 3'8" on the D29.

 

247 Developments makes a quite nice whitemetal 8'6" Dean bogie.

 

Adrian