HS2 under review

[jamie92208]

The deletion of the section via Meadowhall takes HS2 out of the hilly area around Barnsley and onto flatter ground further east, so has probably reduced the amount of tunneling on that section.  As far as I am aware those deleted tunnels were made necessary by the topography rather than the need to minimise impact on housing or the environment.  Similarly the line now goes round East Midlands Airport rather than tunneling beneath it, but that tunnel was either due to topography or because of the presence of the airport itself so can't really be ascribed to housing or environmental impacts. 

 

The tunnels under London and much of the tunneling in the Chilterns would not be necessary if no account was taken of how many properties and sensitive environments would otherwise be demolished or blighted, but exactly the same applies to the tunnel under south Manchester.  So if only tunneling for housing/environment reasons is taken into account, I don't think the proportions have changed much. 

 

There is also a new tunnel under Woodlesford on the current route.

 

Jamie

[ess1uk]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42358892

[Mike Storey]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42358892

 

Didn't something similar happen at NR some years earlier, as part of the HQ to MK move? It also happened at NatWest, one of the NHS Trusts and I seem to recall others.

 

Bear in mind that this refers to "Senior Managers" and there have been many cases in the past where managers on such contracts have taken their employer to tribunal (or court) where they have successfully argued that lost earnings should have been taken into account, particularly annual and rolling bonuses which would not have been payable if dismissal took place before a certain date each year, in addition to the statutory minimum. HS2 seem to have rolled over and accepted that these amounts were paid without authority, but I would hazard that the Personnel, Finance and Acting Managing Directors would have taken that into account when approving these sums.

 

Bear also in mind that the MP's sitting on the PAC receive the most generous redundancy payments in the country when they lose their seats......

[jjb1970]

Employment issues are one of those areas where the devil is in the detail and I'm not sure many MP's would have the first idea of such details. A contractual obligation is a contractual obligation, a two way street, a concept which some politicians and civil servants struggle to understand. I'm guessing that MP's will be in no rush to insist on statutory minimum redundancy pay for themselves.

[locoholic]

Reminds me of some projects in developing countries, where all the money disappears and nothing actually gets built! I'm sure nothing so crooked could happen in this country - oh, I forgot about the "Garden Bridge"!

[Coombe Barton]

Happenings on the ground in Birmingham. Curzon Street was closed off for twelve days while test pits were dug in the middle of the road, and neighbouring streets are also having deep holes dug in them.

 

Traffic was somewhat delayed.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Coombe Barton

[jjb1970]

I blame Milton Keynes, it is all explained in this article:

 

https://www.citymetric.com/transport/hs2-isnt-about-north-england-all-its-about-commuters-milton-keynes-1059

 

I myself always knew this to be the case, Theresa May regularly calls me to ask my permission to do stuff as she well knows which voters matter. One day maybe commuters in Manchester may be able to buy season tickets rather than having to buy peak hours day tickets every day, if they vote Tory it'll surely happen. I'm a bit disappointed however that the writer let our biggest secret slip by calling MK a city, nobody outside of MK is meant to know it's actually a city.

 

If this article is representative of the arguments about HS2 then it helps explain why the country is a mess, I have seldom read such a load of complete b*ll*x (well, apart from when I occasionally read newspapers).

[Mike Storey]

I blame Milton Keynes, it is all explained in this article:

 

https://www.citymetric.com/transport/hs2-isnt-about-north-england-all-its-about-commuters-milton-keynes-1059

 

I myself always knew this to be the case, Theresa May regularly calls me to ask my permission to do stuff as she well knows which voters matter. One day maybe commuters in Manchester may be able to buy season tickets rather than having to buy peak hours day tickets every day, if they vote Tory it'll surely happen. I'm a bit disappointed however that the writer let our biggest secret slip by calling MK a city, nobody outside of MK is meant to know it's actually a city.

 

If this article is representative of the arguments about HS2 then it helps explain why the country is a mess, I have seldom read such a load of complete b*ll*x (well, apart from when I occasionally read newspapers).

 

This chap is not a journalist as such but more of a blogger and is actually a highly opinionated software developer. He lives in Birmingham but works in Leeds. http://www.tomforth.co.uk/

[pete_mcfarlane]

I like the bit where he compares the cost per mile of season tickets with other tickets, and finds it's a lot less. Funny that.

[jjb1970]

Fear not!! The problem is solved!!

http://www.51m.co.uk/hs2-and-milton-keynes-commuting/

The "city" of Milton Keynes is the only real commuter place on the WCML, and all of us commuters from MK can fit on 1.67 class 350 trains therefore it is proved conclusively that there is NO capacity issue on the WCML!

[Mike Storey]

Fear not!! The problem is solved!!

 

http://www.51m.co.uk/hs2-and-milton-keynes-commuting/

 

The "city" of Milton Keynes is the only real commuter place on the WCML, and all of us commuters from MK can fit on 1.67 class 350 trains therefore it is proved conclusively that there is NO capacity issue on the WCML!

 

I would not worry about this site too much either. It stopped posting anything substantial a year ago, leaving it to lone tweets. The last one's link does not even work.

 

Apparently once the more generous compensation packages were agreed, the solidarity of this group pf local authorities has somewhat diminished.

[jjb1970]

I would not worry about this site too much either. It stopped posting anything substantial a year ago, leaving it to lone tweets. The last one's link does not even work.

 

Apparently once the more generous compensation packages were agreed, the solidarity of this group pf local authorities has somewhat diminished.

 

I'm reminded of the old joke that if you want to know what the weather state is then look out of your window rather than looking at the weather forecast. Websites like this can produce numbers but you'd think somebody at this site would have asked the obvious question of if there aren't that many people travelling why were LM and Virgin running so many trains why do they seem pretty well loaded? Load factors on the LM (or LNWR or whatever they're called) express services are high leaving Milton Keynes, the all stops and semi-fasts less so but all of them seem to be very well loaded by Watford. Going North, you don't see many services not full and standing leaving Euston. Even outside of rush hour the trains are pretty well used, although they reduce to single sets. And that is before thinking about the longer distance market and Virgin trains, or freight.

[pete_mcfarlane]

Fear not!! The problem is solved!!

 

http://www.51m.co.uk/hs2-and-milton-keynes-commuting/

 

The "city" of Milton Keynes is the only real commuter place on the WCML, and all of us commuters from MK can fit on 1.67 class 350 trains therefore it is proved conclusively that there is NO capacity issue on the WCML!

Using 15 year old figures to disprove current capacity problems caused by growth is a bit special. 

 

In a way they are right about the regular commuters from one station all fitting on a handful of trains. But there are lots of other stations on the line, and lots of people who aren't regular commuters head in to London in the rush hour. 

[jjb1970]

Using 15 year old figures to disprove current capacity problems caused by growth is a bit special. 

 

In a way they are right about the regular commuters from one station all fitting on a handful of trains. But there are lots of other stations on the line, and lots of people who aren't regular commuters head in to London in the rush hour. 

 

The Trent Valley and Northampton services tends to be reasonably well loaded when they arrive at Milton Keynes, and South of Milton Keynes (I'll include Bletchley, as it is part of MK, along with Wolverton, I didn't bother reading the article in enough detail to see if the figures are for MK Central or include the other two WCML MK stations) there are some pretty busy stations such as Leighton Buzzard, Berkhamsted and Hemel which are patronised by a lot of passengers. Not to mention Watford. And it is correct to say that whilst during rush hour the services are dominated by people commuting to/from London there are other users even in rush hour and not everybody is going to London.

 

I'm rather amused by the fact that some seem to see Milton Keynes as the centre of the WCML, the "city" pulling the strings and warping national transport policy. I mean obviously such an idea is eminently sensible and personally I struggle to see why any right minded person could object to the needs of MK determining national transport policy, but I rather think these people are flattering and grossly exaggerating the importance of MK.

[locoholic]

On BBC Midlands Today there was an item about the overall design for the HS2 station at Birmingham airport being changed from being a station surrounded by car parks, to a station surrounded by housing.

 

I guess someone realised that all the roads in the area are already full, so it didn't make sense to create another magnet for car drivers. However, it would make even more sense if the design for HS2 was altered to permit HS2 trains to run through to Wolverhampton and other parts of the area not directly served by HS2, especially as Wolverhampton is apparently going to get a nice new station.

 

It also reinforces the role of HS2 as a glorified outer suburban line for London, as I bet the new houses will appeal to Londoners who can take advantage of the lower house prices around Birmingham.

[melmerby]

On BBC Midlands Today there was an item about the overall design for the HS2 station at Birmingham airport being changed from being a station surrounded by car parks, to a station surrounded by housing.

 

I guess someone realised that all the roads in the area are already full, so it didn't make sense to create another magnet for car drivers. However, it would make even more sense if the design for HS2 was altered to permit HS2 trains to run through to Wolverhampton and other parts of the area not directly served by HS2, especially as Wolverhampton is apparently going to get a nice new station.

 

It also reinforces the role of HS2 as a glorified outer suburban line for London, as I bet the new houses will appeal to Londoners who can take advantage of the lower house prices around Birmingham.

Not quite right.

 

The car parking would appear to be in similar numbers but now housed in multi-storey developments rather than on surface, releasing the land for other projects including a shopping plaza and a public transport interchange as well as new housing.

https://www.newcivilengineer.com/business-culture/10m-green-light-for-hs2-birmingham-interchange-station-extras/10029059.article

 

Keith

[locoholic]

Not quite right.

 

The car parking would appear to be in similar numbers but now housed in multi-storey developments rather than on surface, releasing the land for other projects including a shopping plaza and a public transport interchange as well as new housing.

https://www.newcivilengineer.com/business-culture/10m-green-light-for-hs2-birmingham-interchange-station-extras/10029059.article

 

Keith

Hmmm. Congestion around the NEC is going to be truly awful.

[melmerby]

Hmmm. Congestion around the NEC is going to be truly awful.

Could it get any worse than it already is?

 

I used to drive to the NEC many years ago but haven't done for a long, long time due to the chaos when exiting shows.

Fortunately I can get there on public transport fairly easily.

 

Keith

[Edwin_m]

To encourage economica activity outside London and minimise environmental downsides HS2 should offer relatively cheap walk-up tickets including for peak times, reflecting the large number of seats available.  But it should not offer big discounts on season tickets, so that rather than just filling them with commuters local business people are able to visit, and have visitors from, London and other cities. 

 

Whether this would happen is another story entirely, especially as walk-up fares on non-HS2 routes would have to be similarly reduced to avoid accusations of discrimination against those places.  But it wouldn't be politcally acceptable to slap huge increases on existing season tickets. 

[Hesperus]

So you are suggesting that the railways should discourage commuters?

 

Isn't that like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas?

 

 

Perhaps a new railway line running to Birmingham International/airport/NEC/HS2 from the west would help?  Hereford to Redditch on the existing line then follow the M42 accross.

 

Decent parkway stations and interchanges with other lines could help cut congestion right accross the south of the city.

[hayfield]

The lines northwards out of London are full up, more travellers than ever are using the railways and we are constantly being told by the environmentalists to use public transport, The commuter lines south of London are also full up and if the lobbyists keep upping the pressure not to build extra lines/capacity, the only other solution is to encourage employers to move parts of their operations away from London.

 

After seeing what the French have done with their railway network, its about time we had a root and branch rethink about our rail strategy including perhaps more jobs migrating away from London. On the other hand the blight these schemes have on the local communities mainly due to both the time taken in making decisions, the amount of objections allowed and the small corridor which qualifies for compensation, all needs looking at and addressing. We must have a transport system fit for purpose, but at the same time be mindful of those who are  most adversely affected   

[olivegreen]

The lines northwards out of London are full up, more travellers than ever are using the railways and we are constantly being told by the environmentalists to use public transport, The commuter lines south of London are also full up and if the lobbyists keep upping the pressure not to build extra lines/capacity, the only other solution is to encourage employers to move parts of their operations away from London.

 

After seeing what the French have done with their railway network, its about time we had a root and branch rethink about our rail strategy including perhaps more jobs migrating away from London. On the other hand the blight these schemes have on the local communities mainly due to both the time taken in making decisions, the amount of objections allowed and the small corridor which qualifies for compensation, all needs looking at and addressing. We must have a transport system fit for purpose, but at the same time be mindful of those who are  most adversely affected   

 

I sympathise with much of what you say, but could you elaborate a bit on your comment about French railways, please? I have a slight feeling that we do not see things from the same perspective!

[The Stationmaster]

I sympathise with much of what you say, but could you elaborate a bit on your comment about French railways, please? I have a slight feeling that we do not see things from the same perspective!

 

There are two essential difference between Brtain and France in respect of railway schemes.  Firstly France is a much larger country with plenty of space in which to build new and additional infrastructure and secondly if it is decided new and additional infrastructure is needed, including in urban areas, the French get on and build it with years of dilly-dallying, numerous inquiries, loads of environmental etc protests, and not bothering to worry too much (until recent years) about the availability of finance.

 

Simple comparison is the various RER lines around Paris where the biggest problems in getting them operational were industrial relations matters rather than getting on and doing the job, and doing it properly - no tuppenny ha'penny shortcuts on the surface sections such as those we are seeing for Crossrail,

[hayfield]

The past 3 years we have had holidays in Italy using the French, British and Italian railways rather than air travel. The best high speed system is France and they seem to build railways for the nations interest rather than pandering to local pressure groups. I think one can still find faults as in the main, transfers in Paris are a real pain (Garde do Nord to Garde do Lyon) where as every other connection seemed seamless efficiency

 

Their network is a joy to use as are the trains, next actually comes the UK using two different mainline routes to london in the past, then St Pancras to Paris. Italy seems like the UK, which is  catching up on redeveloping their network. Some actually stunning state of the art stock, with some which must date back to the 60's (old compartment stock), which actually was a pleasant change

 

I had the pleasure of going on the ultra high speed French line, breath taking. They seem to look at the problem/opportunity and built new lines as well as upgrading existing ones. Double decker coaches are a super viewing platform.

 

Unlike the drudge of air travel we look forward to the pleasure of continental train travel, (which includes Eurostar). Our own mainlines into London (outside commuting times) are also nearly as pleasurable with the modern stock now in use

 

The Swiss trains other than cost absolutely terrific as one would expect, had the joy of being in the first carriage on one journey, and was able to look through the window from the compartment into the drivers cab and have a drivers eye view of the journey through the Alps

[Hesperus]

The problem of too many people working in London might be solved by Brexit as loads of jobs slowly drift accross the channel.