Jump to content
 

4MM GWR 'BULLDOG' KIT


Recommended Posts

Having received a very nice donation toward the 'Upton Dene' saga from my father-in-law (SWIMBO's have their uses...B) ) I'm considering an increase in the loco stock! The titles say it all really - I'd appreciate any comment on the strengths/weaknesses of the above kits. If you think the remarks are going to be too defamatory - PM me!

 

All contributions gratefully recieved & read

 

Kindest rergards and seasons greatings

 

Ian

Link to post
Share on other sites

Although i dont own a Falcon kit they are known as more of a scratch aid, i do have a built up falcon kit & they do with care build into very nice kits. The other problem is that falcon is a one man band & although they are still in production you could be waiting a considerable amount of time. I have a finney a3 kit to build sometime & the instructions are highly detailed & everything is of the highest grade & detail. The falcon kit comes from jidenco which is started in the 70's if memory serves. If it was my money it would be the finney kit it'll give you a very highly detailed model.

 

Simon.

Link to post
Share on other sites

If someone offered you a £1 coin or a bent penny which would you choose?

 

You are just not comparing like with like.

Finney kits are at the top of the kit perfection - they are very very good though possibly too detailed for a starter. They will go together correctly if you follow the instructions though the instructions assume some basic knowledge. They are more expensive, for a reason and possibly because they know they are one of the best.

 

The Falcon Brass on the other hand ... think the opposite. They will provide the basic parts.

 

The main reason for this is that they were designed many years (decades) apart. Design techniques have improved but sadly the Falcon range (which is outstanding) has not undergone a redesign. The masters were all hand drawn (actually quite well for the time when there was no alternative).

 

I think there were other kits Nucast and IIRC a Alan Gibson one. Neither quite up to the Finney kit.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The question is, are you proficient with a soldering iron and are used to putting together brass kits, which often involve some forming of parts. If not, then the whitemetal kit option could be looked at. A third option is to book a place with one of the best known scratchbuilders when you will have several years to save up for the completed model!:)

 

I could not recomment Falcon for loco kits I'm afraid.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry, I wouldn't recommend a Falcon kit unless there was no other kit that was close to what I wanted to build. What I would do is buy the Finney kit now and then as Coachman has said find someone I'd like to build the kit for me. You might also be interested in having a look here: A professionally built Finney Bulldog with working inside valve gear

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, thats pretty definitive - thanks folks and (without trying to appear too wise after the event) the results are much as expected. I was particularly interested to learn that the 'Falcon' range havn't been updated. I was aware of their 'Jidenco' origins, and having built a couple of 'Jidenco' wagons back in the '70s - well, forewarned is forearmed! Looks like Mr Finney is going to get a call when the cheque has cleared!

 

Once again - my thanks

 

Regards & seasons greetings

 

 

Ian

Link to post
Share on other sites

I was particularly interested to learn that the 'Falcon' range havn't been updated.

Not all were ex Jidenco.

 

I spoke with the owner (I can't recall his name) about 4/5 years ago and he was then very enthusiastic about "updating" some of the range.

 

However he was known for his "computers are new fangled gadgets and have no place in modelling" type of attitude. The "updated" kits tended to be typed instructions (as opposed to hand written) and a few improved castings. He was, however, very helpful with additional instructions, hand written, when contacted and would supply new parts when asked (after you had cut up or over fetled them to fit). It is a crying shame that the kits were never brought into the 21st century as the range is well worth the effort (IMO). But I guess that he has no interest in the technology required or the effort. I expect it will be yet another one of those kit ranges that will sadly just fade into history.

 

It is easy to be very critical of them when you put them up against modern designed kits and with the familiarity of computers in mind. It is easy to forget that in the 1970's (some of the kits are even older) that a portable typewriter with wonky keys was state of the art, hand drawn etches and dubious quality brass were standard, and the concept of instructions and exploded diagrams were a novelty. Many modellers were still "making it up" by cutting up old tin cans and the like.

 

Your cheque for the Finney kit will certainly be much more painful to write but should give more satisfaction in the end. Take it slowly a step at a time - it is going to be far more intricate - don't be in a rush to finish it - enjoy the build as much as the completed kit.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry Penrhos I can't agree. The Falcon kit is what it is. A basic kit at a reasonable cost. Price wise it is half the price of the Finney and much less complicated. I have built many kits in my time and the Falcon brass, whilst limited in detail etc, provides a sound basis for producing a more detailed model. The two curved frames illustrated are both Falcons.

 

Although sold under the the Falcon label, the kit was originally produced under the 'Loddon Models' name though I suspect that Falcon produced it for them.

 

I must admit that the Finney Bulldog I purchased, I sold on as it appeared to be over engineered.. I have built his Stella and 3232 kits which again contained many, tiny individual parts that could have been combined in my opinion. There were some parts I just didn't use as you cannot see them on the finished model. A couple of important consideration of the Finney kits in general. It is designed to take a modified RG4, a motor no longer produced (currently changing hands on eBay for approx £65). I was only able to apply the small detail using a borrowed resistance soldering kit, whereas the Falcon was constructed using my trusted old Antex 25 watt iron. The boilers/firebox etc comes pre formed on the Falcon whereas the Finney is supplied as a flat etch. It is quite a job to roll a taper boiler from flat and if you mess it up the finished model willnever look right.

 

Another alternative, look for an old K's/nucast kit. Bolt together chassis and whitemetal body. The Bulldog in the background is a K's and has the added advantage of pulling power, being able to haul thirty wagons up the embankment. They crop up on eBay all the time. Also Branchlines produces a chassis/frames kit to convert the Dapol City of Truro kit, though I am not sure how the kit provides for the correct Bulldog boiler.

 

The discussion point is similar to the K's versus other producers elsewhere in this section. Like K's, the Falcon is a basic kit but with research and effort a detailed model can be produced at a very reasonable price. Some of the Falcon tank engines are a fantastic starter kit for those new to soldering and, being brass, if you make a mess you can take it apart again.

 

A good friend of mine has quite a fleet of Finney's. He enjoys complex kit construction and has access to a much wider range of tools and equipment compared to my toolbox. He is also looking for a exceptionally high level of detail. The Finney kit is an outstanding set of parts but it is clearly targeted at modellers who are looking for and enjoy such high level of detail. It is clearly designed for EM/P4. The working inside motion will not fit 16.5 without major modification and requires silver soldering skills to construct. Personally with the viewing angle on my line, it would be difiicult to see it all moving anyway.

 

Would be purchasers need to ask themselves exactly what they are looking for. I consider myself an 'average' modeller and build kits that match the current rtr products on sale. If you want very high detail levels and have the skills/tools go for the Finney. Otherwise the Falcon, K's etc could be considered. If you are not able to build a Falcon kit, I would suggest that a Finney is out of the question.

Falcon kits are not perfect but fulfill a certain market looking for a particluar level of detail, plus they have been around a long time so they must be doing something right.

 

Just an alternative opinion from someone who has built both Falcon/Finney kits

 

Merry Christmas all

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

 

 

Sorry, I wouldn't recommend a Falcon kit unless there was no other kit that was close to what I wanted to build. What I would do is buy the Finney kit now and then as Coachman has said find someone I'd like to build the kit for me. You might also be interested in having a look here: A professionally built Finney Bulldog with working inside valve gear

post-9992-0-12797100-1293485378_thumb.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

The original Mallard kits were better quality than Falcon, were produced very early in etching and were hand drawn. So there is not really any excuse. Fred who started Mallard and was the designed most of Blacksmith hand drew the originals but his latest stuff is computor produced. He is very knowledgable about etched kits and I know many designers have benefited from his advice. Fred is a good mate but I thought well of his stuff before I met him.

Don

Link to post
Share on other sites

I suppose we should temper our advice with the knowledge that the Finney kit is designed to produce a detailed scale model. It can be built to OO gauge with some modification, but it can't be persuaded to go round train set curves. I don't know what the OP's parameters are but if they include either or both of the above then I'd say don't buy the Finney kit. A much better bet would be the Ks/NuCast/Autocom/Whoeverownsitthisweek kit.

 

By the way, some of the Falcon kits have been 'updated' in that new etches are provided for bits that Thompson got wrong. I've got an Armstrong Goods in my pile of kits to be made (I did start on the tender but got sidetracked) and that has a couple of supplementary etches. So now we can probably say Falcon kits are accurate but that there's none of this namby-pamby tab and slot stuff – you're on your own for positioning!

 

 

 

Richard

Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to clarify my position vis a vis the parameters - I'm modelling in 'EM' gauge, minimum radius 3'9", and I have built both 'Finney' kits (albeit in 7mm) and some 'Jidenco; kits before - I'll be using (dependent on the part) either a 'temperature controlled' iron or (when I've practiced) a resistance soldering unit.

 

Kenton posted above 'enjoy the build as much as the finished kit' - my philosphy entirely!

 

Ah well, off down the shed to finish a 'High Level' chassis for The Bachmann 'Pannier'.

 

Regs

to all

 

Ian

Link to post
Share on other sites

It is mentioned by others that the Finney kits require Portescap motors, they are designed to take them but High level fit as do Comet and other gearboxes with Mashima motors. It just needs small alterations to the mountings, nothing massive at all with the high level gearboxes.

 

The Finney models are better kits, but they cost a bit more than the Falcon, but as usual it is the builder who should decide what goes into the detailing level. Jidenco, Falcon, etc., designs were OK, no problems I have ever had, but I was often shown examples where the skimpy instructions left folds in doubt, or where extra detail could have been added to the etching. I often had to add rivet details by punching in extra rivets.

 

Finney are very detailed but tend towards complex small part assembly, you have to know the correct sequence to tackle assembly, with sub assembly of many smaller bits together, and then assemble the parts later on. The best example is the "working inside valve gear", where it is a lot of fiddly assembly to get the parts right before fitting to the chassis. It pays to get the chassis running, before fitting the valve gear, yes I know it may mean stripping the axle, but any binds in the valve gear are difficult to sort in a rolling chassis.

 

As the poster requires 18 mm running then the Finney is better as the frames and clearances are more fully catered for than the older Falcon design, but all these things can be altered, for instance Finney say that you cannot fit the inside valve gear to 00 versions, well you can squeeze it in with quite slight changes! Equally the Falcon can be built to full sprung P4 standards, but you may have to modify, or add components to the chassis, to suit the standards in use, the basic etchings cover all tastes.

 

Kits should be teated as an engineering project, they are not Airfix kits, they just need a bit of attention to detail as you proceed. On the track two well finished kits from either maker should look identical, if they don't, then it is down to the builder, not just the kit maker.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to add to this thread, Philip Rudd has retired, as at the end of this year. The etches have passed onto a new owner. I know this as I'd ordered a County and tender from him and this was the information that was passed back to me. To echo Larry - you need to be proficient with a soldering iron to achieve the desired result. Finney kits are no walk in the park, but you are assured of a good result.

 

regards

 

Mike G

Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to clarify my position vis a vis the parameters - I'm modelling in 'EM' gauge, minimum radius 3'9", a

Ian

ysnipt

 

 

In that case, Ian, I'll join the chorus in favour of the Finney version. No contest as you'll be aware. Enjoy!

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...

I've just checked the UK Model Shops Directory (thweir only marketing outlet) and currenlty there's no mention of them ceasing trading. Doesn't mean they havn't tho' ;)

 

 

Anyway, I'm having too much fun with the MSWJR 4-4-0!:blink:

Regs

 

Ian

Link to post
Share on other sites

I've just checked the UK Model Shops Directory (thweir only marketing outlet) and currenlty there's no mention of them ceasing trading. Doesn't mean they havn't tho' ;)

 

 

Anyway, I'm having too much fun with the MSWJR 4-4-0!:blink:

Regs

 

Ian

 

The UK Model Shops Directory relies on the owner of each "business" keeping the information up to date. I expect a lot of the entries are out of date.

 

As marketing didn't seem to be a major priority for Falcon Brass, perhaps it's no surprise they haven't advertised that they have ceased trading/changed ownership.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...