Adventures in O gauge - First Class kits LNER 8 shoe open merchandise wagon

[Boris]

Just before Christmas I treated myself to an MMP 58' GUV kit, I've always like these vehicles as I remember seeing them of an evening at Newcastle as part of a TPO set. I've built and/or modified/detailed several when I used to model 4mm, both the GUV and the CCT (does anyone remember the Lima CCT model with the dynamos mounted the wrong way round?) for various Newspaper/Parcel trains - something that is something of a favourite of mine. I have an Easybuild Cravens DPU and have built a few SPVs and a Slaters Southern Stove B, but have always fancied a shot at one of these coaches.

Having just finished an MMP Glass MD and bought both wagon and diesel detailing packs from them I elected to go with one of their kits. The only other supplier I can think of being JLTRT and their GUV doesn't seem quite right for me somehow, besides, if I do have a problem, David Parkins has proven himself to be an approachable and helpful person.

Initially when you open the box it does seem extremely daunting, there are several bags of castings, multiple brass frets, a preformed roof and a pre-folded body. There are also etches for full interior detailing (right down to door securing chains on the inside of the doors), bogies, roof detail etc. The castings are all clean and beautifully formed, not a piece of flash to be seem anywhere, and the etchings are clean, crisp and it seems criminal to cut bits off or solder them! The instructions have also obviously had a huge amount of time and thought invested in them, including 7 pages of descriptive text, large and clear prototype photographs and masses of isometric exploded CAD drawings showing exactly how everything goes together.

Having spent 2 days reading and re-reading the instructions I've made a slight start in a spare 30 minutes - there is quite a lot of push through rivet detail on the bogies and the trusty gravity rivetter has once again proved its worth. Experience has shown that less is more when it comes to pushing rivets through its better to make two or three light taps with the rivetter than one almighty whack that distorts the casting (yes it took me ages to work that out!)

Once the rivets are pressed through the results look superb - next job will be to start putting together a bogie, updates to follow.

Edited August 1, 2022 by Boris

[Allegheny1600]

Hi Boris,

Looks like a very interesting build, I shall follow with interest even though I don't have any etched kit-building skills to speak of - yet!

Cheers,

John E.

[Boris]

Hi Boris,

Looks like a very interesting build, I shall follow with interest even though I don't have any etched kit-building skills to speak of - yet!

Cheers,

John E.

 

Hi John,

 

I think interesting is an understatement, unless you mean as in "may you live in interesting times"! To be quite honest until maybe 4 years ago I didn't have much in the way of soldering experience, I still make plenty of mistakes, but the best way is to learn by making them! Soldering isn't an arcane art, it's just a skill that can be learned like any other, the only thing I would suggest is possibly start with something cheaper/easy, like a brass wagon kit, it's not the end of the world is you mess it up, but it's a very good way to learn. In all honesty I've only built a low-mac, a class 20 and a glass MD in 7mm brass, I think this may be the most challenging to date.

 

Boris

[Worsdell forever]

Looks like there are enough parts there for a dozen bogies...

 

(No, it can't go on WCLC...)

[Boris]

Looks like there are enough parts there for a dozen bogies...

 

(No, it can't go on WCLC...)

 

When I first opened the box I thought there were an awful lot of bits for a pair or BR1 single bolster bogies as well, but when you get into it, there are various construction options (heavy duty, double bolster, single bolster etc.) and all the relevant parts, plus each bogie has 2 outer frames and 2 inner frames which have to be laminated together (number 1 attached), so it soon adds up.

 

This side frame is awaiting excess solder removal however my fibreglass pencil is out of ammo so it will have to wait.

 

(Yes it will go on WCLC because it's narrower it won't take the scenery with it!)

 

[Ian G]

Any problems you can follow the building of one here http://www.7mmlocomotives.co.uk/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=1594

 

Ian G

[Andy Siddall]

Hi Boris,

 

Good to see another 7mm build on RMweb.

 

I was at a show just after christmas and a trader had a MMP 58' Bogie Ferry Van kit for sale for a reasonable price so I just had to purchase it. having built one of MMPs 08s and a Catfish I thought it should be a nice kit to build, sadly it will be quite a way down the list but I shall watch this thread very carefully as the kit is essentially the same. The ferry vans being based on the prototype GUV.

 

I also like the GUV and wanted a couple for my parcels train however I discovered the Westdale kit before David brought his kit out, I shall however purchase his CCT kit when it becomes available.

 

The MMP kits really are works of art, everything that the prototype had is faithfully represented, however you do need a lot of patience and time to produce the finished item, the Catfish hopper must have taken the best part of 50 hours......

 

Good look with the kit Boris, can't wait to see this one finished.

 

Cheers

 

Andy

[Boris]

 

Me and this camera are going to have a major falling out soon, but never mind.

 

I've had some spare time this afternoon to push on with the construction of the first bogie unit. It is now recognisable as a BR1 bogie and I'm feeling quite happy that it's beginning to take shape, I'm actually off the first page of instructions now - mind you several of those paragraphs relate to double bolster or heavy duty bogies and the addition of springing (compensation).

 

The side frames are quite easy, each being 2 main pieces and then a couple of detailing etches in the corners, coil spring hangers have also been added on both sides as has the bogie mounting/pivot box and the main bolster assembly in the middle. Progress was extremely slow and careful when assembling the various layers for the pivot mount as it all has to line up for the mounting screw to be fitted, and to build something wonky at this stage would probably prevent the unit from running properly.

 

Fixing the side frames to the bolster was a pig of a job because the whole thing is aligned by slots/tabs on either side of the bolster which allow for quite a lot of play when you want the whole unit to form an "H" with everything all sitting nice and square and level. Not helped by the fact that I think the bit in my iron is a little too large for what I am doing and was nigh on impossible to get anywhere near the join. However, the try squares tell me that everything is level and it's passed the sheet glass test without a wobble too.

 

Next set of jobs is to fit the coil and leaf spring units, a choice is given whether you want castings and a solid bogie, or real springs and have a bogie that effectively reacts like the real thing. At this point I have had a bit of a crisis of confidence and gone down the route of solid construction for an easy life - I built the Glass MD with working springs, it looks fantastic but I don't fancy doing it at the moment on something a fair degree more complicated. However, I will keep all the bits for making the springs work and MMP only charge £38.50 for another pair of bogies, so I could quite happily buy another couple of bogies in the future, make the springing work and simply change the bogies on the GUV - but that's one for the future.

 

(Time invested so far 5 hours - I think I'll keep a tally on what I've done just for interests sake)

[Boris]

Okay, I've had a good couple of sessions now, and this actually looks like a bogie:

 

The end frames and subframe assemblies have all been put together and fitted as have the main hangers for the 8 brake shoes. More obvious is the fact that the wheels have been added, along with the axleboxes, horn guides, leaf and bolster springs. The large pulley is the drive from the wheelset to the dynamo on the GUV (GUVs had a small battery box and dynamo to power the internal lights), one surprise was the line in the instructions telling me to leave the pulley loose to allow for alignment of the provided dynamo belt! Sure enough there is a nickel silver dynamo belt included to add later, along with the castings for the axlebox fronts letting folks know that they are looking at a BR1 bogie - these axlebox plates are next to be added then we're on to the brake rigging.

 

(Time now invested 15 hours)

[Worsdell forever]

Cracking on well there, I'm assuming the other one is in a similar condition...

 

So will it have a working Dynamo?

 

(coat already on...)

[Kempenfelt]

Looking very impressive Boris, keep up the good work!

 

Best Wishes

 

Paul

 

 

[dibateg]

Impressive stuff Boris - a lot more diligent work than the six Sideline LMS bogies I knocked out recently on my production line! I have to confess, they were not my finest work, but with the amount of available time and amount of work required to build a 4 coach set, some compromise is needed.

If I were only doing one or two vehicles, I'd definately go MMP, just for the joy of building..

 

Keep up the good work, I will follow with interest!

 

Regards

 

Tony

[Boris]

 

Well, after a full afternoon of surgical wrestling all the brake assemblies have been put together and fitted. This is quite a fiddly job, mainly because there are 24 seperate small parts to laminate, plus brake shoes to fit etc. I made a slight error when fitting the brakeshoes in that they were sat far too high, I find that brake shoes should be roughly aligned centre to centre with the axle journal. When I first fitted them, the brake shoes were barely visible below the bogie frame. Once the bow girders are fitted and the safety hangers are added, the bogie becomes quite a nice model in its own right. The only thing I do need to do is remove the safety hanger at the dynamo end of the bogie because this is a top linked bogie and this hanger is for the link on a bottom linked bogie. Dave Butterworths build suggests removing the wheels to fit the brake gear, which for the next bogie I will most certainly do as trying to work round the wheels is very tight indeed.

 

On with the next one!

 

(time now at 21 hours)

 

Update - 2nd bogie now at the same stage as the post dated 4th January.

 

(time now at 28 hours)

Edited January 8, 2011 by Boris

[Boris]

I've not updated for a few days because I have been pressing on with the 2nd bogie, and it's a bit daft reposting items that have already been covered.

 

Bogie 2 is now complete and has passed the plate of glass and the electrical shorting test, so I'm starting to look carefully at the underframe, which is the next part of the kit, if built in sequence.

 

 

This is just to give you an idea of the size of the underframe etch, easily 400mm of nice thin brass fret to play with, it is absolutely essential that this part of the kit is kept totally flat whilst all the underframe trusses and details are added otherwise you will have little chance of getting everything to go together, and even less chance of it running nicely. I've elected to build this part of a sheet of glass to give me the best chance of keeping everything even.

 

(Time invested now at 39 hours)

[richard carr]

So is that 39 hours to build the pair of bogies or have you spent time on other things.

 

I have a pair of bogies to build and but I was hoping that it would take a little less time than that.

 

 

Richard

[Boris]

So is that 39 hours to build the pair of bogies or have you spent time on other things.

 

I have a pair of bogies to build and but I was hoping that it would take a little less time than that.

 

 

Richard

 

Hi Richard,

 

Yes, I'm afraid that is 39 hours total spent solely building bogies. I reckon if you are adding the working springs option you can probably add a couple of hours to that total. However, as both bogies are essentially identical you could probably reduce the build time substantially by building both sets of bogies together rather than one after another like I did.

 

 

Moving on, todays progress on the underframe, showing the bogie mounts (the outer 2 trusses at either end), and the 5 cross trusses. I've manahed to get about 8 hours in since making that post last night thanks to a fantastic case of insomnia! There is nothing particularly hard about building this part of the model, however the trusses are time consuming to construct as they are composed of roughly 8 parts each, and have to be mounted exactly central and upright because the main fore and aft trusses slot into cuts in the cross stringers. I've also folded up the buffer beam for the hell of it!

 

As an aside I've managed to fold up the solebars (same length as the underframe web), as rooting through a convenient skip the other day I managed to find an antique vice with jaws that must be about 550mm accross, and because the jaws of the vice aren't chewed it makes a fantastic, if heavy, way of making long folds.

 

Next job is clean the tabs off the underframe web, as I left them on until I had some pieces soldered on for strength because I didn't want to risk distorting the etch if I got overenthusiastic with the file. After that task the fun begins, bend up and fix the central underframe trusses, another long job, and then there are the queen post etches to add and loads of other bits to give the correct profile for a rolled girder frame.

 

(Time now at 48 hours!)

 

 

EDIT - Dynamo side solebar fitted in 15 minutes of stressful and super careful soldering

[georgeT]

Hi Boris, what a great job you are doing, l bought a MMP dogfish a simple little job l thought, god l was gobsmacked when l saw the level of detail you get, but looking at the job you have made with the guv, has picked me up, l will be watching this one to the end, very good work, cant wait to see it finished.

[Mallard60022]

Hi Richard,

Yes, I'm afraid that is 39 hours total spent solely building bogies. I reckon if you are adding the working springs option you can probably add a couple of hours to that total. However, as both bogies are essentially identical you could probably reduce the build time substantially by building both sets of bogies together rather than one after another like I did.

 

(Time now at 48 hours!)

EDIT - Dynamo side solebar fitted in 15 minutes of stressful and super careful soldering

 

Boris, you have illustrated just why 'professional' builders usually charge 'quite a lot' for their kit constructions! It is the TIME taken to achieve such finishes as you have achieved that they charge for.

Sadly, some folk who approach modellers to do something for them just do not understand this.

You have done 48 hours so far. Translate that into (say) a tradesperson's rates) and you are talking BIG money so far.

I dabble in 4mm kit building and due to inexperience (probably) I can take up to 8 hours to just get a 4mm coach soldered, bogied, roofed, running smoothly and ready for glazing, final detailing and painting. OK this might seem a bit slow, but I am trying to do a very good job. I am lucky in that some modellers that either can't or won't solder or have no time spare to kit-build, will ask me to do such work for them. However, although it seems horrible to say it, they are getting a very good deal at the rates applied.

Anyway, back to your build. I think this looks just superb. I have only ever built one 7mm kit (just to see what it was like), an LMS Brake Van and I found that very enjoyable but it was very simple in comparison to your job.

I look forward to watching progress.

Sincerely, 36E

[Boris]

Thank you both for your kind comments gentlemen, I'm not convinced about producing a professional finish, but I appreciate the sentiment, especially if you saw the solder lake I created on the underframe web that I spent 45 minutes cleaning off!

 

I've managed to get cracked on a bit later last night and a bit more this afternoon, both solebars and central underframe trusses have been added, the solebars were quite easy thanks to the slot and tab guides on the main underframe web. Then came the central trusses, I won't repost the actual language used because I value the continuing use of my RMweb account, lets just say that the air was a pretty shade of dark blue at one point or another. The idea is that the trusses are folded and then set into slots located in those cross stretchers fitted the other day. This is further aided by more slots and tabs and half etch lines in the main web, however, human nature being what it is, and the tolerances being exceedingly fine, a certain amount of fettling was required to get everything to line up and sit correctly. Not to mention that any over application of force could distort the underframe making the entire assembly process later impossible.

 

Suffice to say that these have now been fitted and fettled, and the myriad small parts that complete the main underframe assembly. We're now into the realms of the really fiddly stuff that actually makes the underframe look decent, there's now a lot of "create assembly X and set aside for future use", so don't panic if there are no updates for a while, I'm just waiting until I feel I have done enough to give you something worthwhile to look at.

 

Firstly a picture of the completed underframe mounted on its bogies:

 

 

And the body perched on top for an ego pleasing moment so I can see what the finished article may look like:

 

 

Finally I'm off to take the bogie back off the underframe and give the whole assembly a bloody good clean before I go any further.

 

(EDIT - Build Time now 54 hours) - thanks peejay!

Edited January 13, 2011 by Boris

[peejay]

Thank you both for your kind comments gentlemen, I'm not convinced about producing a professional finish, but I appreciate the sentiment, especially if you saw the solder lake I created on the underframe web that I spent 45 minutes cleaning off!

 

...<snip>...

 

 

Finally I'm off to take the bogie back off the underframe and give the whole assembly a bloody good clean before I go any further.

 

Boris you bad lad you didn't sign your timesheet!

 

Absolutely cracking work though.

[Boris]

I've not updated for a couple of days, largely down to being very busy putting dozens of dinky components onto that underframe picture I posted not so long ago. Some of these items are now complete, first up is the drag box/draw hook assembly, this is a departure from the traditional O gauge (and other scales) sprung coupling; the one where a spring is threaded over the back of the coupling behind the headstock and held in place with a split pin. Instead the spring is placed in a slot inside the widened (behind headstock) end of the cast coupling and a thick piece of brass rod inserted through 2 holes in a drag box (see here) and sandwiched in. This allows the draw hook to spring in and out as per a standard O gauge sprung coupling, it also allows side to side travel and is self centreing behaving much more like the real thing.

 

The next part of the build is to add the dynamo casting, mount and associated wires, this isn't the easiest component in the world to assemble as it has some truly tiny etched nickel silver parts, including a tiny key screw for unscrewing the dynamo nosecone. An etched dynamo belt is also provided, I will be fitting this later when the bogies are fixed in place. The dynamo even comes with tiny rings for mounting the safety chain (which stops the dynamo travelling/swinging too far should the belt snap), and a cast set of wires running from the dynamo up into the coach.

 

Once the dynamo is fitted and correctly aligned, you can move on to the vacuum brakes. These comprise a number of castings including cylinders, DA valves, release valves and pipework, not to mention myriad tiny cranks and other fittings to allow modelling of an almost perfect cylinder set. This photo shows loads of blobs of solder etc. which have now been removed from the underframe along with the errant flux blobs!

 

I must admit that here I disagree with the placement of one of the components on the cylinder assembly, the item closest to the solebar on the base of the cylinder is the manual release valve for releasing the vacuum brakes manually. This is accessed from a string on the solebar at either side of the vehicle, two per cylinder, one to either side. The "handle" type assembly on the right of this item is the actual release that the strings attach to, and should be mounted fore and aft on the vehicle (otherwise pulling the string generally means the valve won't work) and the instructions have it mounted side to side.

 

I have now completed both cylinders and associated cranks etc. and am about to start installing the handbrake wheel assemblage, which I KNOW is going to be fiddly as it includes tiny cog etches.

 

(Time now at 66 hours!)

[Bob Reid]

Hi Boris,

 

The release valve, at least for that type of brake cylinder, is in the correct position (it didn't pull directly on the valve - there was a small lever extending out at right angles to it) relative to the cylinder pivot bosses. However you've placed the cylinder the wrong way round as the valve should be to the inside - towards the bottom longitudinal, not as you've got it, towards the solebar side.

 

Lovely build all the same!

[Boris]

Hi Bob,

 

Thanks for taking the time to reply on the thread.

 

Unfortunately I do have to disagree with you on the placement of the valve in relation to the solebar/centreline. Because I'm getting paranoid in my old age I have been out and had a look at 3 GUVs this morning, namely 86604, 93545 and 93813. The first of these vehicles has the feeds on the inside as you say, but 93545 has both cylinders fed from the solebar side as I have modelled, however 93813 showsone cylinder with an outside feed, and one where the feed is on the inside.

 

The referance photos supplied with the kit also show both types of feed quite clearly, and as far as I can tell, yes, they were built with the feed on the inside. It would appear that as time wore on cylinders were apparently refitted back to front at some point, and, as I am heading towards modelling a vehicle in the late 70's I think I can probably get away without turning the cylinders, not that it would be much of a problem.

[Bob Reid]

Out of interest Boris, were these preservation vehicles you looked at? as I suspect the cylinders have been remounted after a brake overhaul the wrong way (round), or at least, not as they were originally intended.

[Boris]

Out of interest Boris, were these preservation vehicles you looked at? as I suspect the cylinders have been remounted after a brake overhaul the wrong way (round), or at least, not as they were originally intended.

 

Yes, they are preservation vehicles, however I know for a fact that not one of the vehicles has had the vacuum cylinders removed since preservation as they are intended for storage only and not as runners.

 

I've managed to talk to a friend via facebook as well today who used to work on these things in the 70s and 80s, and he has confirmed that latterly, certainly where he was concerned that he wasn't too fussy which way round a vacuum cylinder was as long as it worked.

 

It is one of these preserved examples that the model is based on anyway as I am attempting to buy one, next one I build will have inside feeds, then everyone is happy!