Ultrascale BRITANNIA driving wheels

[BlackRat]

Wonder why there isn't scope to take someone else on.

 

Like many, I'm waiting the arrival of wheel sets, but there seems to be good business being turned away, which doesn't make good business.

 

And yes I know it's a sideline or whatever, just seems like there's an opening there should someone wish to take it........

[bertiedog]

I think Ultrascale are making a meal of the delivery times, if they are not making a loss, and actually making some money, then why do they not take on staff to slightly increase the volume of work. If the production does not really return a profit at all, then the company, like any other is not going to survive.

 

Things in specialist companies do tend to tick over, with very variable lead and delivery times, I worked in such a small specialist company making scientific & optical equipment, and deliveries were slow due to the nature of the work, but we took on staff if things go too far behind, for fear of losing future orders. the company only finally closed due to retirement of the owner.

 

I expect they simply do not want any risk to the business as it is, and cannot alter the production processes to speed things up. I do not know it is is in effect a "one man company", but it does look like a lot of responsibility for day to day operation does rest with the owner. They obviously have a lot tied up in the company, and are dedicated to quality production, but the times are too long most most serious modellers.

 

 The trouble is that wheels are the vital first ingredient in making any model, and a delay of many months frustrates even the most friendly and patient of modellers, when they cannot even start a model in the conventional way.

 

Stephen

[Horsetan]

.... why do they not take on staff to slightly increase the volume of work. ....

Where are you going to find ready-trained short-term staff - in Letchworth - who are well-versed in the use of machine tools for small-scale model products? Training takes time and money - GSL may have the latter, but not the former.

[bertiedog]

But it is not highly trained staff they need, it is "the bod with a job", on the end of the bench who helps things move along. We even had ex milkmen working at precision work, as they were often better skilled than kids from college, who were a disaster area. He had worked in engineering before the milk rounds of course, but in the late 90's trained ex-apprentice engineers were hard to come by. but he knew how to operate a Brittain auto lathe, and was soon mass producing small repetitive parts production, leaving more skilled staff to do the precision work.

 

College training as a joke, we had one youngster who claimed to be trained in engineering, so put him to work on drilling etc, and second process work, but then he was given a batch of castings for a spectrometer base to drill and hand ream at 5/8ths, to a sound bearing fit on precision ground shafts.

 

He drilled the holes, after I pointed out he should start with a centre drill, then under sized series of drills to reaming size, with hand reaming with a "worn" reamer to get a close fit.

 

He came in with the batch completed and I and the manager tested them, all over size by up to 3 thou.....he said the ream must be too worn as it did not fit!

 

I asked him to show me the drill he had used, and it was indeed about 5 thou under the size, so all should have worked, but then he said he had sharpened the drill, and alarm bells rang,

 

I asked him how he had done it, in a jig, or by hand, and he said as he was taught in college, so I asked him how he assessed that the chisel point was in the middle and the cutting edges were the same angle on each side of the tip, to which he relied, "Oh that does not matter , we were taught that in college".... He ducked as we threw the drill at him!

 

Fortunately being practical, I pointed out we could bronze sleeve the hole and re-drill and ream, so the batch was rescued, but the young man did no further drilling or drill sharpening. He did however have the temerity to comment on my hand sharpening a drill without a jig, to which both the manager and I quietly explained was down to 50 years experience!! by eye and my drills drilled to size!    

 

I never enlightened him to the old trick of an offset point to drill to an exact size, by test drilling etc., and all hand sharpened drills were tested first!!!!, which was why they were perfect in production.

 

Stephen.

[meil]

But it is not highly trained staff they need, it is "the bod with a job", on the end of the bench who helps things move along. We even had ex milkmen working at precision work, as they were often better skilled than kids from college, who were a disaster area. He had worked in engineering before the milk rounds of course, but in the late 90's trained ex-apprentice engineers were hard to come by. but he knew how to operate a Brittain auto lathe, and was soon mass producing small repetitive parts production, leaving more skilled staff to do the precision work.

 

College training as a joke, we had one youngster who claimed to be trained in engineering, so put him to work on drilling etc, and second process work, but then he was given a batch of castings for a spectrometer base to drill and hand ream at 5/8ths, to a sound bearing fit on precision ground shafts.

 

He drilled the holes, after I pointed out he should start with a centre drill, then under sized series of drills to reaming size, with hand reaming with a "worn" reamer to get a close fit.

 

He came in with the batch completed and I and the manager tested them, all over size by up to 3 thou.....he said the ream must be too worn as it did not fit!

 

I asked him to show me the drill he had used, and it was indeed about 5 thou under the size, so all should have worked, but then he said he had sharpened the drill, and alarm bells rang,

 

I asked him how he had done it, in a jig, or by hand, and he said as he was taught in college, so I asked him how he assessed that the chisel point was in the middle and the cutting edges were the same angle on each side of the tip, to which he relied, "Oh that does not matter , we were taught that in college".... He ducked as we threw the drill at him!

 

Fortunately being practical, I pointed out we could bronze sleeve the hole and re-drill and ream, so the batch was rescued, but the young man did no further drilling or drill sharpening. He did however have the temerity to comment on my hand sharpening a drill without a jig, to which both the manager and I quietly explained was down to 50 years experience!! by eye and my drills drilled to size!    

 

I never enlightened him to the old trick of an offset point to drill to an exact size, by test drilling etc., and all hand sharpened drills were tested first!!!!, which was why they were perfect in production.

 

Stephen.

As sure as he let you down you surely let him down by not providing appropriate support to the young lad.

[bertiedog]

As sure as he let you down you surely let him down by not providing appropriate support to the young lad.

Not supportive?, we told him the whole method and demonstrated every single point, and I gave him long hours trying to teach him drill grinding, only to be constantly told ," it not the way we were taught at college...." He was not that young either. Enquiries showed the so called teaching had been about 3 months day release, and had run into trouble with drilling, as there were health and safety issues raised about power tools,.....(they were training them as engineers.....). We even installed a pro drill grinder to give a sound basic drill grind to Dormer's standards.

 

The problem was made worst for some as we employed backed off drills, spade and cross point drills, and four facet types, all to refine the quality of the drilled hole. Rarely was a plain spiral drill used except for roughing out a casting or drilling small number drill sizes. All drills were tested by a test drill into the same material as the work, and sizing the hole with a gauge, and in some cases, a measuring microscope to assess the "roundness of the hole", as most drills produce a three lobed hole, not truly round. Even reamers do not make a perfect round, it takes honing and lapping, by inspection, to do this.

 

He remained with the company, he was not removed from general jobs in the Factory, but was not used on precision drilling and reaming. He knew motor bike maintenance well enough, but basic engineering knowledge was missing, and was from many of the younger men in the firm. The older generation had learnt some of these skills at School, College, National Service, and Apprenticeships, myself mainly from my father who was an expert ex RAF trained mechanic, plus his father owned a transport business, where he learnt every mechanical process as a kid.

 

Stephen.

[6029 King Stephen]

I am probably wrong and this will amount to nothing but I recently bought a DJH Britannia kit off ebay and the wheels were described as included.  When I opened the box the other day to have a look at the kit, I discovered that there are actually two sets of driving wheels included.  One is the Romford OO wheelset that I was expecting and will use but the other is in a bag annotated as Class 7 wheels and the axles seem to be much longer than OO axles and the wheels have much smaller flanges than even RP25 profile wheels.  Although I haven't yet measured the axles, I suspect that they are either EM or P4 axles and the flange depth is probably more appropriate for one of the finer standards.  The wheels look like Alan Gibson as they do not have the locking nut that you get with Romfords and there is just a round hole in the wheel centre.

 

Whether they are EM or P4 wheels and axles, I won't be using them and I think they will be difficult to sell on eBay and even less so in Cameroon.  However, I am returning to the UK in a fortnight for two weeks (spending time in Kent and Cornwall) so if anyone is interested and lives along my route (Sittingbourne to Perranporth) I would be open to offers and could deliver them.  I will get my caliper out this evening and measure the axles and the diameter of the wheels from the outside of the flanges so you have a better idea of what I have.  If they turn out to be OO axles and coarse wheels, I apologise in advance.....

 

Regards,

 

Steve

[6029 King Stephen]

Ok, I have checked the axle lengths and these seem to around 129-130mm in length.  The wheel thickness is less than 3mm.  the axles are round along their whole length and the wheel centres have a plain round hole.  Crankpins are fitted to the wheels and each has a very small nut that screws in and out on them.  There are six driving wheels and 4 bogie wheels but no pony wheel or axle.  There are three axles for the driving wheels and two axles for the bogie wheels.  All wheels have black plastic spokes and the driving wheels especially look very fine and fragile when compared to the set of Romfords that are also supplied.

 

I assume that Alan Gibson can supply P4 as well as EM gauge axles (if the axles above are not suitable) and the wheels would fit them.  Would these be of interest/use by anyone waiting for their Ultrascale wheels?  Please note that there is no bogie wheel or axle.  They look particularly finescale and I can understand now how people can get such slight clearances when the wheels are correspondingly thin (much thinner than the Romford RP25 profile wheels that I am used to using in OO).

 

Please PM me if interested with your email address if you want some pictures and your offer.  I will be returning to UK on Saturday 10 September for two weeks and will be staying in the south east and south west of the country, travelling down via M25 clockwise, M4, Bristol, M5 and A30 so could drop them off in person if you live along this route.  Alternatively, I will post them via 1st class recorded delivery.  Payment in person or via Paypal.

 

Regards,

 

Steve

[Horsetan]

It sounds as though you have Alan Gibson wheels. If these have bevelled rims, they will be correct for the BR Standard 5 4-6-0, but not strictly for Std.6/7/8, since the hubs for those are generally larger and flatter in appearance.

 

If the overall width is <2mm, then the wheels you have will be for P4, but I'm slightly thrown by your measurement of the axles - are you sure they are 13cm long??

[Grovenor]

 

Crankpins are fitted to the wheels and each has a very small nut that screws in and out on them.

This suggests that the wheelsets are Sharman wheels, Alan Gibson wheels do not come with crankpins fitted and are more usually grey rather than black. The packaging also sounds more like Sharman.

Regards

[6029 King Stephen]

I'll try and take a picture later and upload it so that you can see what they are.  The bags say class 7P - my caliper's battery is failing so the display kept fading.  I will get a new battery when in the UK and bring the wheels back with me too.  Sorry, should have read 29-30mm!  I thought they were long but not that long.....

 

Regards,

 

Steve

[Horsetan]

....Sorry, should have read 29-30mm!  I thought they were long but not that long.....

 

In that case, "Grovenor" is correct and you are in possession of Sharman Wheels; they tended to be supplied with unfinished axles that you generally had to cut to length yourself. One other thing about the built-in 14BA crankpins was that I found they were never quite long enough if you wanted to fit coupling and connecting rods with full-thickness big ends.

[PenrithBeacon]

Bit harsh don't you think? They're a very popular company, hence the long lead times. The quality is first rate too, you won't find better wheels that's for sure.

I'm with 'mikemeg' on this one , sorry.

 

I think the wheels are actually over specified and so more difficult to produce than they need to be. Seven months to fulfil an order is much too long

[45609]

I'm with 'mikemeg' on this one , sorry.

 

I think the wheels are actually over specified and so more difficult to produce than they need to be. Seven months to fulfil an order is much too long

 

 

Over specified? Surely you are joking? To struggle with any of the following quality issues. Stuff that I have found with wheels that have directly competed with Ultrascale is not acceptable. If you can correct these, like me, that is fine but it is an irritation to have to spend a lot of time making a product fit for purpose. For most it is not acceptable when a superior product can be had.

 

wobbly tyres

loose tyres

poorly machined tyres

moulding pips and sink marks

variable axle lengths

cutting your own axles to length

drilling your own crank pin holes

crank pin bushes with eccentric holes

 

So, what would your wheel specification be and how would you simplify manufacture? Do you even know how they are manufactured?

 

Yes, you have to wait but that is nothing a little planning cannot overcome. You should see the lead-time for made to order components, of less complexity, in my industry.  Ultrascale have always provided first class customer service. Delivery on time to the original promise and perfect quality. There is nothing wrong with that. I think you'll find Ultrascale have a very loyal and supportive customer base.

 

Morgan (astonished of Tewkesbury)

[Horsetan]

....Ultrascale have always provided first class customer service. Delivery on time to the original promise and perfect quality. There is nothing wrong with that. I think you'll find Ultrascale have a very loyal and supportive customer base.

 

Morgan (astonished of Tewkesbury)

Meanwhile, the search for decent driving wheelsets for BR Std. 6/7/8 and 9F continues. Ultrascale won't be making those.

[Jub45565]

Meanwhile, the search for decent driving wheelsets for BR Std. 6/7/8 and 9F continues. Ultrascale won't be making those.

 

Yep, definitely a gap in the market with the Ultrascale and Exactoscale ranges having stagnated. Plenty of wheel types still to go that would be appreciated at a high spec.

 

Edited to add, that as Morgan points out they are brilliant for the wheelsets they do have in the range, and most people would prefer to plan ahead for a good product, than spend those 7 months fettling.

[davefrk]

Over specified? Surely you are joking? To struggle with any of the following quality issues. Stuff that I have found with wheels that have directly competed with Ultrascale is not acceptable. If you can correct these, like me, that is fine but it is an irritation to have to spend a lot of time making a product fit for purpose. For most it is not acceptable when a superior product can be had.

 

wobbly tyres

loose tyres

poorly machined tyres

moulding pips and sink marks

variable axle lengths

cutting your own axles to length

drilling your own crank pin holes

crank pin bushes with eccentric holes

 

So, what would your wheel specification be and how would you simplify manufacture? Do you even know how they are manufactured?

 

Yes, you have to wait but that is nothing a little planning cannot overcome. You should see the lead-time for made to order components, of less complexity, in my industry.  Ultrascale have always provided first class customer service. Delivery on time to the original promise and perfect quality. There is nothing wrong with that. I think you'll find Ultrascale have a very loyal and supportive customer base.

 

Morgan (astonished of Tewkesbury)

 

Calm down dear.... we're working on it.

 

Dave Franks.

pm will be sent.

[Horsetan]

Calm down dear.... we're working on it.

 

Dave Franks.

pm will be sent.

Do tell!

[ikks]

Do tell!

Yes please do !

Mike

[davefrk]

Do tell!

 

 Not yet....

 

Dave Franks.

[Enterprisingwestern]

Calm down dear.... we're working on it.

 

Dave Franks.

pm will be sent.

 

Hence no BP07, it all makes sense now!!

 

Mike.

[ikks]

 Not yet....

 

Dave Franks.

I'm almost 70 give me a reason to keep going!!!

 

Mike

[PenrithBeacon]

Calm down dear.... we're working on it.

 

Dave Franks.

pm will be sent.

It would be good to have another wheel supplier.

 

 

[davefrk]

It would be good to have another wheel supplier.

 

 

 No, not me....

 

Dave Franks.

[Nimbus]

From my scant experience of this site, largely as a "lurker", people are not really prepared to pay for high fidelity and top quality wheels such as Ultrascale and Exactoscale.     

Doesn't apply to me. I have spent a fair amount with both, for products which look good under green engines. However, the stagnation of both ranges leaves my black engine kits wheel-less. Particularly in the case of Exactoscale wheels, I fear they have become divorced from the engineering expertise which would be needed to revive their prospects.

 

The Nim.