RMweb Premium M.I.B Posted January 6, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 6, 2011 Old fashioned DC 00, Hornby and PECO set track. Which off the shelf RTR point motors for under board use please? I have looked at the similarly titled posts, but mentions of DCC, PC interface etc all leave me cold. Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted January 6, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 6, 2011 Seep, or Peco either will work happily for your needs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PWSlack Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 So will Tortoise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted January 6, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 6, 2011 so will TT300s Question is, do you want slow acting or solenoid type? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PWSlack Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 So will Fulgurex. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 If you want to spend more and get slow action ones then tortoise or cobalt are probably best for you Myth - hardly any difference in cost once you add switches, CDU etc. Normally I would advocate Tortoise every time but I'm becommin more and more interested in the potential of the TT300's even for DC But we have to remember the OP has mentioned that dreaded word "settrack" so I guess the Peco wham bang suits the track in this case. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted January 7, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 7, 2011 Normally I would advocate Tortoise very time but I'm becommin more and more interested in the potential of the TT300's even for DC Blimey, almost a road to Damascus moment I too have bought my first TT300 for the single point on my micro O gauge layout - mainly because I can operate it either DCC or DC - havn't made my mind up yet Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium M.I.B Posted January 7, 2011 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted January 7, 2011 Solenoid type - no need for slow/realistic action - Most of the points needing motors are for the fiddle/stock yards "behind the scenes". Does each Seep unit require a CDU, and if so, how are they wired up from and back to the switch? On off switch, or momentary type switch. Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PWSlack Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 .....Does each Seep unit require a CDU, and if so, how are they wired up from and back to the switch? On off switch, or momentary type switch..... No need for a CDU, though having one will give the motor a better blasket to help it change position and will protect it if the firing button is inadvertently pressed for too long. Do not use on/off switches for the Seep units, as they are not continuously-rated; doing so turns them from point motors into smoke units... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted January 7, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 7, 2011 We use Tortoise on all our points, hand built or Peco. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium M.I.B Posted January 7, 2011 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted January 7, 2011 No need for a CDU, though having one will give the motor a better blasket to help it change position and will protect it if the firing button is inadvertently pressed for too long. Do not use on/off switches for the Seep units, as they are not continuously-rated; doing so turns them from point motors into smoke units... So a momentary (sprung type) switch is fine for SEEP units. How does the motor return the point back to the opposite "road" by use of a solenoid and a momentary switch? (I hate elcectrics) Does the first operation of the switch throw the point over and the subsequent operation throw the point back? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 So a momentary (sprung type) switch is fine for SEEP units. How does the motor return the point back to the opposite "road" by use of a solenoid and a momentary switch? (I hate elcectrics) Does the first operation of the switch throw the point over and the subsequent operation throw the point back? Hi Yes, toggle switches are sprung to centre off type, so as once the toggle lever is released it returns to the off position. Often shown as (On)-Off-(On) SPDT toggle switches, where the bracketed (On) can't remain in that position. SPDT is Single Pole Double Throw. Each Seep (or any solenoid point motor) has two separate coils, each coil is connected to one end of the SPDT switch. Power - Nominally 16 volts ac or the positive output of the CDU, is connected to the central tag of the switch and when the switch is making connection to one of the outer tags power is then sent to one coil. This causes a electro magnetic reaction to occur and forces the motors moving iron core 'slug' across into the central area of the activated coil, pushing the point blades over with it. When the other coil is powered (energised) by moving the switch to the opposite position, the iron core slug is pulled across into that coils centre. In doing so the point is then pushed to the opposite position. Each point has an over-centre spring which holds the moving points switch blades against the appropriate fixed stock rail. As soon as the coil has been energised and the point thrown over, the power to the coil must be cut off. Hence the use of passing contact lever type switch, sprung to centre toggle switches, push to make momentary non locking push button switches or Stud and Probe selection. The two coils return connections are joined (already done on the Seep motors) and taken back to the other side of the 16 v ac supply or the negative output terminal of the CDU. A Capacitor Discharge Unit (CDU) will provide the additional pulse of power to the solenoid coil and help prevent coil burn out should the power be accidentally left on for too long to the coil. Only one CDU is normally needed for the whole layout (Larger layouts which can incorporate two or more control panels may well use one CDU per panel). Basic point motor wiring is shown on my web sites Electrical pages. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PWSlack Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 ..... toggle switches are sprung to centre off type, so as once the toggle lever is released it returns to the off position. Often shown as (On)-Off-(On) SPDT toggle switches, where the bracketed (On) can't remain in that position. SPDT is Single Pole Double Throw...... Indeed they do. The "electric pencil" method works well too. The CDU is wired to a wand that the operator brings into contact with metal studs on the panel. When the tip of the wand touches the stud, the circuit is made and the solenoid gets a burst up its coil that makes it change position. For a crossover, remember to wire it so that both "normal" coils fire together and both "reverse" coils fire together (it's actually less wires from the panel than wiring each solenoid from the panel individually). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium M.I.B Posted January 10, 2011 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted January 10, 2011 Brian Thanks for an excellent explanation. I have lots of that type of switch available from another project. Your expanation put what seemed to nme to be a nightmare into simple terms. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 A Capacitor Discharge Unit (CDU) will provide the additional pulse of power to the solenoid coil and help prevent coil burn out should the power be accidentally left on for too long to the coil. Only one CDU is normally needed for the whole layout (Larger layouts which can incorporate two or more control panels may well use one CDU per panel). It also reduces Arcing (potentially harmful sparking) across your switch contacts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium M.I.B Posted January 10, 2011 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted January 10, 2011 So before I part with the wonga, I am considering a handful of SEEP PM2s and a CDU. Situation is: Hornby and PECO points, no need for quiet or gentle operation, nor any need to operate signals. Have I made the correct model choice please? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted January 10, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 10, 2011 We use Tortoise on all our points, hand built or Peco. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 So before I part with the wonga, I am considering a handful of SEEP PM2s and a CDU. Situation is: Hornby and PECO points, no need for quiet or gentle operation, nor any need to operate signals. Have I made the correct model choice please? Sounds fine here and the Seep motors look to be cheaper than the default Peco option and should mount easier. Given in good faith and all that.. RTR points in a fiddle yard that don't need switches means Tortoise would be more expensive here and you dont really need them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium M.I.B Posted January 10, 2011 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted January 10, 2011 Thanks Craig, and thank you all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 In message #9 you mention the motors are partly for the fiddle yard, I use Peco mounted on top of the board for easy access,no scrambling under the baseboard if there any problems. If you have an adequate power supply, no need for a CDU for electric-pencil style operation, as long as you dont dwell on the contact too long (you dont need to). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PWSlack Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 It also reduces Arcing (potentially harmful sparking) across your switch contacts. It is always worth wiring a silicon rectifier reverse-biased across anything that contains a coil, such as a point motor solenoid or an electromechanical relay, that is powered from a DC source. The rectifier serves to protect against high voltages being developed at the contacts of the switch/stud/whatever as the contact opens and the magnetic field in the coil collapses. Don't attempt this on AC as the rectifier will give a good impression of Eyjafjallajökull. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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