shortliner Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Putting Whitewater, Nm into Google brings up a page of demographice and Alternate names Hurley - if you put in Hurley,Nm you then get the same demographics and going to Images brings up a couple of photos, including this http://images.google...=1t:429,r:7,s:0 a small industrial diesel, and a SW1200 Probably not what you are looking for Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 In the US a loop is a, well a loop. Its a circle of track like at a power plant where they unload unit coal trains.If you are searching Google for American track stuff, use "siding". Like Dave says, in the US a "siding" is a double ended side track, for passing, runround moves or whatever. What we call in the UK a "siding" is more commonly called a "spur" in the US - those two instances of the same words having very different meanings make a lot of difference in trying to understand descriptions of places! Ref the bridges - my suspicion is that many routes were built cheaply and quickly with timber bridges and then over time (and even in 1919 I suspect there will already have been plenty of this!) changes will have had to have been made - that innocent looking dry gully turns out to become a raging river once a year when it rains so the big hole in the original trestle now needs a bigger span - that larger wooden span you put in turns out not to have been up to handling much more than an early 4-4-0 so needs replacing with a steel span, and so on, and so on. I would have thought that replacements of large bridges in steel and replacements of larger spans in wooden bridges (and it's not uncommon to find that to this day!) with steel would have been becoming pretty common on anything that looked like a main line by that kind of time - even just because the weight of a fairly standard "large" loco of the day like a 2-8-2 must be at least three times that of the early 4-4-0s the line may have been built to carry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave1905 Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Probably not what you are looking for Actually its almost exactly what he is looking for, good find. It is pictures of trains on the route he is modeling. Swap the shortline engines for ATSF engines and you get the line before it was sold as a shortline. It gives good pix of the terrain and the some of the bridges (white limestone abutments, with through girder bridges). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave1905 Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 what i should have said is that we've spent many, many hours searching but that we haven't found photos of Whitewater. There are a reasonable number of images of the likes of Silver City etc but nothing yet of our middle of nowhere location! I model 1900 so a lot of my railroad is gone. I have found that you can get a lot out of mapping programs. I like to start with terraserver.microsoft.com. That lets you toggle between a USGS topographical map and a black and white satellite view. Once I find the line I want, then I switch to Google or Mapquest for color satellite views. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortliner Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Plugging in the other alternative, North Hurley, Nm gives another couple of photos, including this http://images.google...362&tx=76&ty=75 and this http://images.google...0&tx=113&ty=112 it also turned up this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bridges_on_the_National_Register_of_Historic_Places_in_New_Mexico not sure if any are what you are looking for Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave1905 Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 You aren't going to find any images for Whitewater probably because there really wasn't much of a town there and there isn't anything as far as habitation there now. Google maps tells the story. If you look close you can see that there was a wye, where the old depot was located. There was a track that ran around the depot and to the Hurly leg of the wy, plus a track (possibly double ended) on the Silver City leg (the Google pix has a few gons in that track). The depot looks about the same size as the Siver City depot (and similar arrangement). Since there are numerous stock pens in the area, I would bet there was a stock chute there also. If there were any other buildings there they wer probably wood and are long gone because no buildings, foundations or ruins are visible in the photos. There would have also been a water tower (now long gone). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortliner Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Re my earlier post put Hurley, NM wood trestle rr bridges into google images, brings up a whole lot more loco + train pictures of SWRR Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Looks like there is still a depot building standing just North in Hurley http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=hurley+NM&aq=&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=6.047825,27.817383&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Hurley,+Grant,+New+Mexico,+United+States&ll=32.698546,-108.132245&spn=0,0.010858&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=32.698546,-108.132245&panoid=OocsixuTD2BlzNT_Xk3hzw&cbp=12,325.34,,0,3.56 If an anchient 2-8-0 and some wooden cars or somesuch turned up I could believe this location was still in 1919! (N. end of Hurley) http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=hurley+NM&aq=&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=6.047825,27.817383&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Hurley,+Grant,+New+Mexico,+United+States&ll=32.708364,-108.133916&spn=0,0.010858&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=32.708364,-108.133916&panoid=bTtE54CMt1GUg7U4_db8Vw&cbp=12,154.51,,0,3.59 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortliner Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Some historic photos of Hurley, NM, and a town map on the towns website - http://www.hurleynm.com/ I looked on the Ghosttowns website, and there is no reference at all to Whitewater Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Especially: http://www.hurleynm.com/Hurley%20Info/oldHurleyphotos.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortliner Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Ghosttowns,com gives the name Graham, Nm as another alternative to Whitewater Although it seems to be located in a different county, Catron instead of Grant http://www.desertusa.../nm/silver.html http://www.ghosttowns.com/states/nm/graham.html http://choxmabagist.com/ghost/graham.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortliner Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 I'm begining to wonder if , when mapping of the area was done, probably by the military under attack from Native Americans, Whitewater was just a flyspeck on a map, and due to the scale it could be anywhere within a 50 mile radius of its real position. It reminds me of the practice of naming railway stations, and Airfields, after villages in UK, often miles away (started I believe to confuse the Germans in WW1)' It seems strange that it could vanish so completely if it was in the specified area, despite the fact that most of the town (sic) would probably have been miners tents initially, possibly never having a permanent buildings - it might also have had the name changed later, and become Hurley to prevent confusion with the other Whitewater (pure speculation on my part) but I would have thought that if there was a station it would have been named after the main towns alternate name (Hurley) The other thing I find slightly odd is that there is the town of Hurley standing on railway tracks and not 8 miles away as shown on the diagram. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave1905 Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Just the google pix are great they show the wyes, where the depots are/where, a potential engine house at Hurley, track arrangements, some potential industries, etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Ghosttowns.com gives the name Graham, Nm as another alternative to Whitewater Although it seems to be located in a different county, Catron instead of Grant Despite being on a creek named Whitewater, Graham appears to be northwest of Silver City, NM where Whitewater Jct. is clearly south east of Silver City, NM. I haven't done any real homework, but get the impression that there was never much of a town at Whitewater and that it was there only as a remote railroad junction. The aerial photo on Bing is a little clearer than Google and not cluttered with extraneous roads. There's something that looks like it might be a stockyard and a track leading to what I would guess is the location of a former ranch complex. The Bing image clearly shows a road named "Bertha Moore Road" that crosses the line north of the wye. This might lead you somewhere. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortliner Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Ah, Yes - thanks - I have now found it, and Google satellite show what look like 3 hoppers or tanks sitting on a siding (loop) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted January 26, 2011 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted January 26, 2011 Good grief you've all been busy whilst I've been at work! Lots of links to follow up on. We've previously searched the ghost towns site and been through google earth, bing and the geological sites. Lots of info in our research folders. I've also 'travelled' along the nearest highway in streetview. We've clocked the Wye, shed remains etc. Always wondered what if any town / hovel the station supported. Certainly appears to be cattle related facilities. Fascinating stuff all this research and great to have all your pointers. Funny the differences in UK - US terminology! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave1905 Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 In the US a "sleeper" is a extra car on the train, not shown on any of the lists, as in: The freight train had to saw by the express because it had 10 sleepers in it and was too long for the siding. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted January 27, 2011 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted January 27, 2011 Plugging in the other alternative, North Hurley, Nm gives another couple of photos, including this http://images.google...362&tx=76&ty=75 and this http://images.google...0&tx=113&ty=112 it also turned up this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bridges_on_the_National_Register_of_Historic_Places_in_New_Mexico not sure if any are what you are looking for great finds! Some great reference material. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted January 27, 2011 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted January 27, 2011 Putting Whitewater, Nm into Google brings up a page of demographice and Alternate names Hurley - if you put in Hurley,Nm you then get the same demographics and going to Images brings up a couple of photos, including this http://images.google...=1t:429,r:7,s:0 a small industrial diesel, and a SW1200 Probably not what you are looking for Cracking find. I'm guessing though that in 1919 the area would have been devoid of the trees, what with firewood and building needs. Think I'm now getting a good mental picture of the area. Good to have confirmation from you all that these photos are the right sort of look we should be aiming for. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted January 27, 2011 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted January 27, 2011 Looks like there is still a depot building standing just North in Hurley http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=hurley+NM&aq=&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=6.047825,27.817383&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Hurley,+Grant,+New+Mexico,+United+States&ll=32.698546,-108.132245&spn=0,0.010858&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=32.698546,-108.132245&panoid=OocsixuTD2BlzNT_Xk3hzw&cbp=12,325.34,,0,3.56 If an anchient 2-8-0 and some wooden cars or somesuch turned up I could believe this location was still in 1919! (N. end of Hurley) http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=hurley+NM&aq=&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=6.047825,27.817383&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Hurley,+Grant,+New+Mexico,+United+States&ll=32.708364,-108.133916&spn=0,0.010858&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=32.708364,-108.133916&panoid=bTtE54CMt1GUg7U4_db8Vw&cbp=12,154.51,,0,3.59 I keep hoping someone will pop up on RMweb with a photo of the remains of the station.....unlikely despite Andy York's global domination plans.... ;-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted January 27, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 27, 2011 You might find a little more detail about how wooden bridges are built on this site, which sells model kits. Note an online clinic about building Santa Fe trestles. I have been more than happy with their products. http://www.blackbearcc.com/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortliner Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 There was an article about building trestle bridges in CM some years ago, by the late Paul Templar - builder of exceptionally fine logging layouts (Google Badger Creek, or Cooncreek & Tumbleweed Springs, for an example if you are into Logging). I had it, but no longer do so.. Edit - it is on line http://www.all-model...r/chapter10.htm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 I keep hoping someone will pop up on RMweb with a photo of the remains of the station.....unlikely despite Andy York's global domination plans.... ;-) LOL Don't know if it helps, but Hurley has a look to my eye of the American Model Builders #5 standard Santa Fe depot (kit #805) - They do several other kits which are early 1900s Santa Fe "standard" plans as well - if you are doing Whitewater as the middle-of-nowhere junction that it seems to have been then that might be overkill in terms of size though. If you were to take Hurley depot as an indication that they were using their standard wooden depots in the area then they do a nice little one as kit #801 which might work better for Whitewater? Cracking find. I'm guessing though that in 1919 the area would have been devoid of the trees, what with firewood and building needs. Think I'm now getting a good mental picture of the area. Good to have confirmation from you all that these photos are the right sort of look we should be aiming for. Looking at the early 1900s pics on the Hurley site the area round the town seems pretty much free of vegetation, but are the darker shapes on the hills in the background trees? The oral history on the Hurley site mentions teams of horses bringing down firewood from the hills? (Lots of other good info in that as well, how houses were built, idea's for rail traffic etc) Interesting question - would Whitewater be the same though? It makes sense for Hurley's vegetation to have been cleared for firewood as the town boomed in the years before those images, but as Whitewater never seems to have had a boom would it have been the same, or would it have looked like that google shot of the North end of Hurley nowadays, with assorted scrubby trees and bushes taking over? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted January 27, 2011 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted January 27, 2011 I think John's intention is to do a 'based on' with some artistic alteration of reality. As such there's likely to be a more substantial (although dying town) than it ever looks existed in the real location. Chance for modelling something on the edge of ceasing to be. So perhaps our greenery should be minimal but showing signs of recovery. Buildings wise i think John has kits for the station and goods shed - ATSF wooden that look like the ones at Hurley. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortliner Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Just a thought, but I wonder if the lack of remaining evidence of buildings might have been due to Adobe, or "rammed earth", construction which is common in New Mexico, and once allowed to become derelict would revert to nature fairly rapidly Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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