Once Upon a Time.... in the West

[dave1905]

I think what you see in Whitewater is going to be pretty much what you get. If Whitewater was a bigger town there would be streets or at least flat spots, scars on the earth where buildings and roads once were. I don't see any. I'm thinking at most a general store, some cattle pens, a couple houses for railroad workers, a water tower, some section buildings and a depot. In 1919 I'd be suprised if the only electricity in Whitewater was whatever the rairoad brought in to serve the depot and telegraph system.

[dave1905]

Have you considered joining the Santa Fe modeler's society? One of my friends models the Surf Line (Los Angeles to San Diego) and I know there is a HUGE amount of information preserved by the modeling and historical societies. He has track diagrams, building plans, timetables, etc. etc. Same for the NYC and PRR historical societies.

[Ozexpatriate]

Just a thought, but I wonder if the lack of remaining evidence of buildings might have been due to Adobe, or "rammed earth", construction which is common in New Mexico, and once allowed to become derelict would revert to nature fairly rapidly

Being made of the same stuff as the ground, adobe is remarkably persistent. The aerial photos (Google/Bing etc) are just a bit too high up to see details like foundations. There is plenty of adobe in the traditional settlements like Santa Fe and Taos, but a middle of nowhere place like Whitewater would likely have used timber framed construction with all the materials shipped in by rail.

 

In the very late 19th century you could actually order all of the lumber and fittings for building a house from Sears, Roebuck & Co. Everything was provided, down to windows, nails and paint, and was entirely shipped by rail.

 

I suspect that the most likely reason there is lack of remaining evidence of buildings is that there weren't any. I also wonder if the reason Whitewater Jct. doesn't show up in the Ghost-towns site that you researched is that there was never much of a town. (Of course this is just a guess on my part. I don't really know anything specific about this area.)

 

I don't think this area would have had vegetation that became denuded by human habitation for construction and firewood. It probably never had large hardwood trees. This is a high-altitude, arid climate. Lots of prickly spiny scrub on the hills (and where the hills meet the plains) and small trees around water would be the norm.

[Jon Gwinnett]

In the very late 19th century you could actually order all of the lumber and fittings for building a house from Sears, Roebuck & Co. Everything was provided, down to windows, nails and paint, and was entirely shipped by rail.

 

Off topic I know, but you still can - recently saw an episode of Grand Designs where the entire house , nails and all, was freighted in to the UK from a US firm.

[shortliner]

The reason I wondered about adobe was precisely because of the lack of timber for building materials, but looking at the railroad diagram further, most of the copper mining was established in the early part of the 19th century ( and worked on and off from then onwards - see the history link below). I'm begining to think that Whitewater Junction was just exactly that, a "middle of nowhere" junction with a couple of branches taking an easy route and following the flatest ground near a creek - it never developed into a town because it was too far to the mining area, unlike Hurley, established in 1910 (quote)

The Old Hurley Company Store

In 1910, Chino Mining Company took over the old Santa Rita Mines and began what is now one of the world's largest open-pit mining operations. To process the ore, Chino built a converter and established the town of Hurley just 10 miles south of the Santa Rita site. The Company Store was one of the first buildings in the new town. Chino supplied merchandise for the store from trains that passed within 10 feet of the back of the buildings. A steel door beside the tracks was opened and the goods slid down a cement chute into the basement. A large hand-pulled elevator was used to move the merchandise up into the store.

The company store carried everything miners and their families needed; from clothing and groceries to kerosene for their lamps, hay for the animals and coal for their stoves. In 1912, the company added a connecting passage and a new brick building which housed the payroll office in the back with an area above for tools and hardware. The remainder of the new building, with its 16 foot high tin ceilings, became a department store.

Joseph and Karin Wade purchased the buildings in 2005, and renovated the interior of the brick building to create their new JW Art Gallery, picture framing shop, gift store and museum.

(unquote)

Found a photo of the store http://www.panoramio.../photo/15459895 and a photo of the railroad station http://www.panoramio.../photo/33386463

which was closer, probably had a general store, and a couple of saloons and the miners would probably have lived initially in tents, and later in "store-bought" homes or shacks - think the TV series "Deadwood". The railroad looks to have been very much Johnny-come-lately, and not reached the area till towards the end of the century,. I notice it seems to have a fair-sized cemetery, indicating a lot of deaths(mining accidents?) or having been there for some time. More of the historyof Hurley, here http://www.hurleynm....LEYHISTORY.html There is a video of the smelter stack being demolished here

and a link to a map of the copper smelter is here http://wikimapia.org...-copper-smelter

[2ManySpams]

The aerial photo on Bing is a little clearer than Google and not cluttered with extraneous roads.

 

The Bing image clearly shows a road named "Bertha Moore Road" that crosses the line north of the wye. This might lead you somewhere.

 

Any idea what the circluar object is in the centre of this Bing image? http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=pdx2rp5zns7d&lvl=17&dir=0&sty=b&eo=1&where1=Whitewater%2C%20NM&q=Whitewater%2C%20NM

 

Had a look to see if there was any relevance to Bertha Moore. Gosh it's a popular nane! Need to delve deeper and refine the search further.

[2ManySpams]

I think what you see in Whitewater is going to be pretty much what you get. If Whitewater was a bigger town there would be streets or at least flat spots, scars on the earth where buildings and roads once were. I don't see any. I'm thinking at most a general store, some cattle pens, a couple houses for railroad workers, a water tower, some section buildings and a depot. In 1919 I'd be suprised if the only electricity in Whitewater was whatever the rairoad brought in to serve the depot and telegraph system.

 

Having spent hours looking over the available maps and photo images I'd have to say that we'd drawn the same conclusions. Thankfully we're not going to model it as an exact replica, and I'm sure John will explain in a future post how he plans to tinker with history and what's actually on the ground. The prototype and period development in the area is our starting point though. This is the same approach we've taken on our other layouts.

[2ManySpams]

Have you considered joining the Santa Fe modeler's society? One of my friends models the Surf Line (Los Angeles to San Diego) and I know there is a HUGE amount of information preserved by the modeling and historical societies. He has track diagrams, building plans, timetables, etc. etc. Same for the NYC and PRR historical societies.

 

That's a very good leed to follow up - thanks.

 

John - you need to follow this up!!!

[2ManySpams]

What is interesting about this thread is that contributions are being made from all over the world and the time differences have a funny effect on when people read and post! I'm guessing that the US is about 7-8 hours behind the UK. So as I'm just finishing work now others will be only a few hours into the day.

[shortliner]

My guess is that it may be named for someone of the original pioneer families http://newmexicoalhn...er_families.htm

 

Edit looking here http://newmexicoalhn...grobittextm.htm and following on, I found this which seems likely judging by the text, in obituaries

 

 

Google is wonderful and my initial guess was a good one.

[2ManySpams]

My guess is that it may be named for someone of the original pioneer families http://newmexicoalhn...er_families.htm

 

Edit looking here http://newmexicoalhn...grobittextm.htm and following on, I found this which seems likely judging by the text, in obituaries

 

Google is wonderful and my initial guess was a good one.

 

Well done that man - I was just going to have more of a look now I'm home. So reading between the lines the road was probably called something else before she had the ranch in Whitewater. Sounds like she was a very generous individual and the road naming reflected that.

[2ManySpams]

Something else struck me the other day about UK-US differences that I've observed whilst helping John out on his American layout and having been the veteran of several UK layouts..... Is it me or is there just so much more info available about UK lines and stations? These days it would appear that just about every UK line now has a book about it crammed with photos, plans, history - just about everything you need to build a station on that line. Add to that the extensive on-line resources and you're on to a winner.

 

The US is obviously much much larger and has a greater mileage of track. My observations from this side of the pond are that the information coverage is much more patchy. Some popular locations have loads of info readily available info, books and websites whereas others go largely ignored. Population distribution must play a role. Even the most remote lines in the UK have a much higher lineside population than, say, the Whitewater NM area. No people = fewer records = less folk interested. I suppose then that there's a vicious circle whereby the popular well documented lines become more popular to the cost of the less popular ones. And round it goes....

 

You see the same sort of thing over here. A book comes out about a line, manufacturers release a new signature loco for that line and suddenly everybody is modelling that location. (Those interested in the UK scene will agree that for some reason the Bodmin and Wenford lines will become heavily/overly modelled in the next year or so).

 

I noticed this trend in the US layout websites (there was a link on Pg 4 I think). From a quick look I got the impression that the main US trends are urban shunting puzzle planks; East Coast Rural and narrow gauge logging. I suppose it sort of surprised me that, despite having such a rich diversity of landscape and prototypes, how little this was reflected in the modelling. And in we come unknowingly choosing to model one of the least popular areas in one of the least modelled periods that is covered by comparably little information

 

Just to prove how strange the world is... to balance our UK model of the far US, here's a US model of a UK prototype loved by our group. (And proving that enough research can get the right feel)

[Ozexpatriate]

I noticed this trend in the US layout websites (there was a link on Pg 4 I think). From a quick look I got the impression that the main US trends are urban shunting puzzle planks; East Coast Rural and narrow gauge logging.

I think what you are observing is that there is more emphasis on operation in the US where in the UK fidelity to an exact time and place are sacrosant. US models are often more 'loosely based' with an emphasis on both 'selective' and 'compression'.

 

Except on commuter lines, raised platforms are less common in the US so the "station" is often just represented with a token depot and trains can then be as long as you want. Not having to limit trains to the platform length is very liberating in layout planning.

 

Model subjects in the US are vast. There are a lot of popular categories that I see frequently modeled. There are some very popular locations, and there are more regional "atmosphere" type layouts. These are not in any particular order

• 
   
  
• New England coastal, harbours, lighthouses: Maine shortlines, the New York, New Haven and Hartford Railroad
  
• Pennsy mainline: Horseshoe curve in Altoona, Pennsylvania (PRR)
  
• Western Pacific: Keddie Wye on the Feather River route
  
• Mid-Atlantic coal conveyers - C&0, N&W, Clinchfield, etc.
  
• California celebrity lines: AT&SF Surf Line, (LA-San Diego) SP Daylight (LA-Oakland,Oakland-Portand)
  
• The UP mainline through the Tehachapi Loop
  
• Southern Pacific, Pacific Fruit Express produce trains hauled by cab forwards
  
• Rockies narrow gauge mining - H0n30 is increasing in popularity (and not just for logging)
  

I'll stop here because it's tedious to read, but there are many more categories that are just as popular as what you have listed in your post.

 

The distribution of time periods that are frequently modelled is very bi-modal.

• There is a big following for the 1950s which is the transition period in the US. Big steam exiting, big diesels entering.
  
• The other mode is something I would call approximately contemporary.
  

Lots of other periods are modelled but none as much as the two above.

 

I suppose it sort of surprised me that, despite having such a rich diversity of landscape and prototypes, how little this was reflected in the modelling. And in we come unknowingly choosing to model one of the least popular areas in one of the least modelled periods that is covered by comparably little information

Least modelled area - you picked something pretty remote.

Least modelled period - yes I agree.

 

That serves to make your layout project that much more interesting.

[2ManySpams]

That serves to make your layout project that much more interesting.

 

Hopefully so, particularly with the help we're getting from you guys.

[2ManySpams]

Except on commuter lines, raised platforms are less common in the US so the "station" is often just represented with a token depot and trains can then be as long as you want. Not having to limit trains to the platform length is very liberating in layout planning.

 

Mmm, hadn't considered that. Mind you our Treneglos layout has near scale length platforms 300' long and yet the line saw timetabled Summer Saturday trains up to 11 coaches. Now that could cause operational issues passing trains on a single track line with 8 coach passing loops (US: sidings).

[Old Gringo]

I'm still amazed by the interest shown in our "two rusty rails in the desert" - a branch, of a branch, of a branch, to quote Dave-1905 from a few days ago. And so much extra information fizzing through the web, my computer 'mouse' is getting dizzy!

In the earlier notes, the answers are all given to; why, what, where and when our proposed layout is hoping to portray. The project began in 2006 as just a few lines scribbled in an A4 notebook and it has taken four years to reach the pile of wood that you will be able to see as a part of one of the demonstration modules at Stafford's Model Railway exhibition.

Over many years of modelling U.K. prototypes, I've developed pretty eclectic tastes. I've been involved with Great Western, LMS and Southern in the West Country model railway layouts and currently with Damian's St. Blazey depot, back to a Great Western prototype, but as it was operating not too many years ago.

 

Now, for this latest model idea, what did I know about railroads in the U.S.A.? In my last note, I summed up what we collectively knew about railroads in the U.S.A. at the beginning of the project - basically zero - excepting that I knew something about the crack steam-powered "varnish and steel streamliners"!

[Old Gringo]

Somebody once said that the U.S.A. and the U.K. are "two countries separated by a common language" and although in both country's our trains run on track with rails spaced 4 feet 8½ inches apart, that's pretty much where the similarity stops.

Researching U.S. railroads and what's available for the 'Once upon a time' project?

With zero knowledge, I had to start right at track level. I considered sizes, scales and methods, and I realised that although I knew plenty about British permanent way to be able to sketch out a layout plan, I knew surprisingly little about U.S. statistics, structure or practices.

The Guinness book of Rail Facts & Feats gave me some basic facts; 39 foot rails, staggered joints, rail weights from 85lb to 174 lb per yard. U.S. axle loadings can be up to 34 tons per axle and there are from 3000 to 3500 ties per mile (each measuring 9" x 7" x 8' 6" set on centres from 21" to 18").  No wonder U.S. track looks so different in all those stunning photographs.

That was just the beginning of my learning curve. If we were to model a railroad set in a desert at the turn of the century, try some of these other questions: Where was it going to be located ? when was the route built ? how was it built ? what company was operating the railroad ? what structures would they have used ? what was the heaviest locomotive in use on the section ? what was the rail weight and tie ratio under the trains ? what locomotives were available ? what track was available ? what stock might have been in use ? what was available to buy for the chosen period ? What would they do in the U.S.A.?

 

Go figure ! Go and buy a copy of the most popular railroad modelling magazine - Model Railroader!

And through the pages of Model Railroader I was introduced to huge potential of U.S. railroads and the tremendous range and support for HO scale.

Four years later with hopefully some of the right information and the right stock for the period, we've set off to build something a bit bigger than a shunting plank, but only a fraction of the size of some of the "basement empires" that have featured in Model Railroader's articles and the special Great Model Railroads editions. (I'll have to pass some of them on to Chris, especially the one's with layouts based upon Tehachapi, Raton and Sherman Hill).

So far this project has been as much fun as the crazy way it began!  First discovering how U.S. railroads spread west across the continent, to find a suitable prototype. Next, finding out how they were built and then appreciating the different approach to operating methods and practices. Finally, we're now close to attempting to convert all this stuff into a model.

[Ozexpatriate]

Except on commuter lines, raised platforms are less common in the US so the "station" is often just represented with a token depot and trains can then be as long as you want. Not having to limit trains to the platform length is very liberating in layout planning.

 

Mmm, hadn't considered that. Mind you our Treneglos layout has near scale length platforms 300' long and yet the line saw timetabled Summer Saturday trains up to 11 coaches. Now that could cause operational issues passing trains on a single track line with 8 coach passing loops (US: sidings).

A lot of the larger US track plans I see are based on a mostly-freight operation with a single mainline operating yard-yard (or yard-terminus) with the occasional siding to stage meets inbetween. There is a requirement for these sidings to be very long to accomodate long freights and they often end up being bent around the end or internal corner of a peninsular. The modelled part of the station or 'town' is usually only a small fraction of the length of the siding to give the impression of place.

 

The mainline run until the next junction or siding and might then be barely longer than the siding itself. This is one aspect of the way I see selective compression being applied differently in US layouts.

 

A master of contemporary southwestern desert scenery is Pelle Søeborg from Denmark. He is extensively published and a regular contributor to Model Railroader. His photos are well worth a look if you haven't seen them already.

 

The fact that you are planning to focus your model on a specific place (even with selective compression and appropriate 'interpretation') with a UK aesthetic to modelling is very compelling.

[Old Gringo]

Thanks Ozexpatriate, for your interest and input. I've seen some of Pelle Soeborg's inspiring work in MR and we hope to get our scenery up to his standards.

 

The almost limitless possibilities that are offered by the U.S. network had me originally considering a "what if" project over the Tejon pass. Somewhere I've read that In 1923, the ATSF proposed a route up the pass from Kern Junction and through a summit tunnel at 3737 feet above sea level. This would have relieved traffic from both the Tehachapi route and the coast line - but it was not built. This was my first proposal for "Once upon a time . . . in the west" - but I thought that it would be too modern to deserve the title.

 

Thanks also to Shortliner for all the references - I'm having trouble keeping up!!

 

All the very best, John

[shortliner]

John - i enjoy chasing links around on Google, it is surprising where some of them take you, an example is those smelter towers at Hurley being demolished - I had seen them in passing previously, but hadn't come across any reference to them having been demolished earlier. I must say that I rather liked the idea of the General Store at Hurley, with deliveries from the RR slliding down a concrete chute into the basement - It throws up suggestions of a model that appeared in RMC many years ago - "IOTA, the end of a very short line" by Richard Francaviglia (sp?)

[shortliner]

Came across a post on another site that might be useful for your project http://www.railroad-...?TOPIC_ID=32268 - the books refered to may be of use too

 

a bit more detail re the books http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=30496&whichpage=10

[2ManySpams]

Came across a post on another site that might be useful for your project http://www.railroad-...?TOPIC_ID=32268 - the books refered to may be of use too

 

a bit more detail re the books http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=30496&whichpage=10

 

Just had a quick look at the 2nd link - looks well worth following up.

[Jon Gwinnett]

Possibly slightly off topic, but the remake of 3:10 to Yuma features some atmospheric ole-time US railroading, (and isn't a half bad movie either)

[2ManySpams]

Possibly slightly off topic, but the remake of 3:10 to Yuma features some atmospheric ole-time US railroading, (and isn't a half bad movie either)

 

Not off topic - we all love westerns. 3.10 to Yuma is a great film. The intro - drip from the water tower and buzzing fly - fantastic!!

[Old Gringo]

Here's some more background on how we ended up with "two rusty rails across a desert"!

Following on from my long list of questions in post 117, I started on a crash course of collecting information. I borrowed some superb picture albums from a friend interested in modern U.S. practice. The stunning photography in Rolling Thunder and Railroading on a Desert Mountain, Tehachapi gave me an idea of what the Southern Pacific and the Santa Fe routes from New Mexico to California looked like operating in the latter part of the 20^th century.

Searching for a prototype location for "Once upon a time . . . somewhere in the west ?

Pretty soon, I got a well-thumbed copy of the Handy Railroad Atlas of the United States (Kalmbach reprint of 1948 edition) and began to familiarise myself with railroads in the south west. As my finger pushed westward across the pages, I followed the names of the towns from some of my favourite Westerns; Newton, Wichita, Tucumcari, Gallup and Flagstaff: El Paso, Lordsburg, Benson, Tombstone, Nogales, Yuma and many more.

Next, I bought a book on the History of the Atchison Topeka and Santa Fe, Keith L. Bryant Jr., from Golden Spike books in Tucson, Arizona. (How inappropriate, as Tucson is on the rival 'Espee', but I didn't know that then!). And after gaining some more facts from Mixed Train Daily, a real wallow in nostalgia by Lucius Beebe and Charles Clegg, (in fact I think Beebe was the American equivalent of Britain's Cuthbert Hamilton Ellis) I thought I had enough information to begin searching for a location for our model, that had both some western character and history.

The first ideas were to maybe produce a 'might have been' railroad, incorporating fact like the ATSF push towards the Pacific coast in the late 1880s, to Guaymas in Mexico, and invent our own mineral carrying short-line off this route. This would have allowed us to take a more free-lance approach, as would the Tejon Pass idea, mentioned in post 119.

However, to satisfy the initial goals (which you'll have to go a long way back to the first of my ramblings in post 10 of this thread, after the question "What if ?") - a junction station and small yard in a desert landscape, as it would have looked around 1900 - I began a more systematic search for possible prototype locations that really existed, like on the Peavine system in Arizona.

Then Chris found a book New Mexico's Railroads,  A Historical Survey, David F. Myrick and we both bought a copy. Down in the south western corner of the fifth largest State, 'The Land of Enchantment', we read about the ATSF expansion to El Paso and Deming (named after Mary Anne Deming, who became the wife of Charles Crocker, one of the Big Four). And then the branch off a branch, up through Whitewater to Silver City. At last, there was our prototype.  David Myrick captures the atmosphere that we want to model with the text, "A lonely little train in a lonely country".

As a postscript: In the final scene of the film Geronimo (1993), a short train - carrying the Apaches from Arizona to imprisonment in Florida - appears briefly into shot and then slowly disappears into a vast empty landscape.  For over five minutes as the credits roll, the black smoke billows out across the desert and yes, I know now that in 1886, it shouldn't be an oil-burner, but this is one of my favourite railroad filmclips.

 

Would that we had the use of an empty industrial unit in which to recreate this scene in miniature!

More will follow on the locomotives and rolling stock that we would need for the project.

All the best, John.