DCC Concepts Loco Decoders

[250BOB]

I have been DCC since about 2006......Lenz system, and initially lenz decoders.  But curiosity led me to try all sorts of different manufacturers decoders over a few years.

 

Such as TCS, DCC Concepts, Hornby, Bachmann, Gaugemaster........I am now back pretty well exclusively with Lenz decoders.

 

TCS and DCC Concepts were better than the other three........and I had about 6 of each at one point.   However, over a period of about 2 years, every one of then ultimately failed in a puff of smoke or similar.   I like to set the decoders with a realistically low top speeds for my many freights, i.e. CV5 very low, also extremely slow acceleration and deceleration.....it seems that these parameters upset the decoders in some way....they eventually give up the ghost.

 

All replaced with Lenz products....and not a single failure with any of them.

 

I'm sure there are others who find the TCS and DCCConcepts fine for their use........I didnt with my settings.  Not an avenue I will be going down again........rather a pay a few quid more for a Lenz decoder.....far more robust and reliable in my opinion.

 

I seem to remember that the harness on at least one of my TCS products was the cause of at least one failure.

 

Bob

[RFS]

Identical experience to 250BOB.  I'm additionally using RR&Co Traincontroller, and this needs accurate BEMF to operate properly.  I found both TCS and DCC Concepts decoders deficient in this respect: RR&Co needs BEMF to work out where a train is to stop and engines fitted with these decoders were not accurate, often stopping a coach-length's short.  Both decoder makes had a strange speed lurch about mid-speed which I couldn't fix with CV tinkering, and the DCC Concepts decoders seemed to be identical in performance to TCS.  I had 7 TCS DP2X-UK decoders, two TCS M1 and two DCC Concepts S4SAX.  Three TCS and one DCC Concepts failed and were replaced under warranty. All have now gone to Ebay, the DP2X-UK ones being sold for a profit!

 

With Hornby and Bachmann decoders, speed CVs could not be changed so I quickly replaced these, and the Bachmann ones also had a habit of resetting themselves all too often.

 

I now use Lenz, with the Lenz Standard+ being the decoder of choice.  I also have a pair of Zimo MX623Ps and 4 Hornby Sapphires for the Bachmann 2-EPBs where the Lenz was strangely erratic.

[Sunnysa]

Lurch in TCS/DCCcocepts decoders can be eliminated by setting CV10 to  speed step number the lurch occurs.

 

 IE if lurch happens at Speed step 12 set CV10=12.

 

 The lurch does not always occur at same speed step in ea decoder.

 

 This is info for the average modeler that does not op RR&CO etc.

 

 I have been using DCCconcepts decoders since their release and never had one fail. Same with TCS.

 

 Cheers

 

  Ian

[250BOB]

Lurch in TCS/DCCcocepts decoders can be eliminated by setting CV10 to  speed step number the lurch occurs.

 

 IE if lurch happens at Speed step 12 set CV10=12.

 

 The lurch does not always occur at same speed step in ea decoder.

 

 This is info for the average modeler that does not op RR&CO etc.

 

 I have been using DCCconcepts decoders since their release and never had one fail. Same with TCS.

 

 Cheers

 

 Ian

 

Hi Ian,

Its really odd how different people come to completely different conclusions on decoders.....but I accept entirely that some people are ok with them.

 

I wonder if its down to how the usual cv's are set up....i.e. how you prefer to "drive" the loco.

 

My preference is to set cv5 for the locos max permissable scale speed to suit my layout.

 

Freights approx 15mph.........Passengers approx 40mph.   Anything faster doesnt look right.

 

So I first set CV5 down really low.....50 ish for freights and 100 ish for passengers.

 

As well.....CV3 acceleration, is really slow...all freights usually in the 250 value area..........my way of driving trains is to set them off at full speed, i.e. speed step 28 of 28....then sit back and watch it slowly accelerate over say 60 to 80 feet of layout travel.

 

Even the expresses can be in the 200 value area.

 

CV6 was somewhere in the region of half the CV5 value.

 

Another problem was that I have gradients..........on the down grade, the expresses used to speed up from the normal scale 40mph, up to about a scale 60mph.  This looked ridiculous as there was a a bend at the bottom of the hill leading straight into a station.  I DONT want to have to slow the train down each time it reaches this point....I'm too busy controlling about 2 or 3 other trains at the same time.

 

I had both the MD's of both TCS America and DCC Concepts Australia trying to help me solve this runaway problem.......without success.

 

I hear what you say about adjusting other cv's.........BUT, the advantage with the Lenz is that it works perfectly, 1st time and everytime, straight from the box.......without showing the niggly problems that I have explained.

 

If you dont drive your trains like I do, over a similar type of graded layout like I have....then you may not be seeing the issues.

 

Hope that helps you to better understand the reasons for my dislike of the TCS and DCC Concepts decoders.

 

Bob

[Sunnysa]

HI bob,

 

 My layout is 10'x20' (3m X 6m) walk in style.

 

 Half the layout is mountain's with gradients up to nearly 3%.

 

.None of my locos speed up coming down those gradients including DCCconcepts/TCS locos.

 

 I don't normally use CVs 5&6 I do a full 28step speed curve using Decoderpro with a top speed of 40mph on all locos.

 

I do set CVs3&4 to my liking but not as high as you do.

 

 I have some of my locos set in a permanent double head. Usually one loksound coupled with a non sound DCCconcept or TCS loco.

 

 All my DH locos perform well together even coming down gradients.

 

I do agree that we all drive locos/trains differently and we all use products that suit us.

 

 My point is, for the price and the preparedness to spend a little time and patience adjusting CVs DCCconcepts/TCS decoders are  very good  for the average DCC operator that does not op RR&CO etc.

 

Some say the extra cost is worth it and fair enough but, I say, why spend extra money if you don't have to.

 

 I must admit I get great satisfaction  tinkering with CVs to get a loco to run exactly how I want.

 

 Usually about 10 mins per loco to program it to my satisfaction.

 

 The only time I use Decoderpro is setting 28step speed curve. Most other CV programing is done via my Lenz or ECoS SYSTEMS.

.

Cheers

 

  Ian

[250BOB]

HI bob,

 

 My layout is 10'x20' (3m X 6m) walk in style.

 

 Half the layout is mountain's with gradients up to nearly 3%.

 

.None of my locos speed up coming down those gradients including DCCconcepts/TCS locos.

 

 I don't normally use CVs 5&6 I do a full 28step speed curve using Decoderpro with a top speed of 40mph on all locos.

 

I do set CVs3&4 to my liking but not as high as you do.

 

 I have some of my locos set in a permanent double head. Usually one loksound coupled with a non sound DCCconcept or TCS loco.

 

 All my DH locos perform well together even coming down gradients.

 

I do agree that we all drive locos/trains differently and we all use products that suit us.

 

 My point is, for the price and the preparedness to spend a little time and patience adjusting CVs DCCconcepts/TCS decoders are  very good  for the average DCC operator that does not op RR&CO etc.

 

Some say the extra cost is worth it and fair enough but, I say, why spend extra money if you don't have to.

 

 I must admit I get great satisfaction  tinkering with CVs to get a loco to run exactly how I want.

 

 Usually about 10 mins per loco to program it to my satisfaction.

 

 The only time I use Decoderpro is setting 28step speed curve. Most other CV programing is done via my Lenz or ECoS SYSTEMS.

.

Cheers

 

  Ian

 

Hi Ian.

My gradients are about 1 in 75.....1.5%......but from top to bottom it takes at least 20 feet.  The pick up in speed is only noticed with expresses when they go from 40 to 50/60mph , but it takes pretty well the whole 20 feet to do this acceleration.  It has done it with all the locos I fitted TCS and DCC Concepts decoders to.

I was unable to stop it no matter what I did, even with help direct from the manufacturer in Australia and America.

I have got decoder pro on my lap top, but yet to give it a serious go.  I currently use the track and my Lenz system to change cv's.

 

There some similarities with how we operate, and its always good to share experiences.......what era do you operate.......Steam? Diesel? or a mix.?

 

Bob.

[Sunnysa]

Hi Ian.

My gradients are about 1 in 75.....1.5%......but from top to bottom it takes at least 20 feet.  The pick up in speed is only noticed with expresses when they go from 40 to 50/60mph , but it takes pretty well the whole 20 feet to do this acceleration.  It has done it with all the locos I fitted TCS and DCC Concepts decoders to.

I was unable to stop it no matter what I did, even with help direct from the manufacturer in Australia and America.

I have got decoder pro on my lap top, but yet to give it a serious go.  I currently use the track and my Lenz system to change cv's.

 

There some similarities with how we operate, and its always good to share experiences.......what era do you operate.......Steam? Diesel? or a mix.?

 

Bob.

Hi Bob,

I model mainly USA diesel with occasional steam. HO scale.

 

 The layout is 2 levels point to point with branch line controlled by ECoS colour with Lenz connected thru sniffer port for extra  hand held throttles.

 

 The era is now but I am one of those scaly wags that strongly believe in MFR (my naughty word railway) and run what I like when I like..

 

 Most of my various diesels are 1st generation some 2nd generation. Couple of more modern such as Genset.

 

 When the rivet counters pick me I tell them the diesels are all rebuilds and  steam is run as fan trains and then remind them MFR.

 

 I have monthly op sessions with up to 7 operators.

 

 Operators do not move around with trains.

 

Trains are handed from station to station etc.

 

 Cheers

 

  Ian

[RFS]

Lurch in TCS/DCCcocepts decoders can be eliminated by setting CV10 to  speed step number the lurch occurs.

 

 IE if lurch happens at Speed step 12 set CV10=12.

 

 The lurch does not always occur at same speed step in ea decoder.

 

 This is info for the average modeler that does not op RR&CO etc.

 

 I have been using DCCconcepts decoders since their release and never had one fail. Same with TCS.

 

 Cheers

 

  Ian

Agreed but that's no use when using automatic operation as the software is reliant on BEMF being enabled and accurate at all speed levels, not just at slow speed.  With the change that you suggest, the lurch does go but accurate stopping place is also lost under automation.

 

Quite simply it shouldn't be necessary to do this if the decoder is programmed properly. Lenz decoders do not have this facility because the BEMF implementation is accurate to start with.

[Sunnysa]

RFS

I did say that DCCconcepts/TCS decoders are for the average DCC modeler that does not op RR&CO etc.

 

 Please reread my previous posts.

 

 Cheers

 

  Ian

[RFS]

RFS

I did say that DCCconcepts/TCS decoders are for the average DCC modeler that does not op RR&CO etc.

 

 Please reread my previous posts.

 

 Cheers

 

ian

The point I was making that you shouldn't have to adjust a decoder's CVs to eliminate a sudden lurch - regardless of whether you are using automation or not.  And I'm sure the average DCC modeller uses default CVs and wouldn't necessarily know that tweaking Back EMF in this way is the solution to this erratic decoder behaviour.

[250BOB]

The point I was making that you shouldn't have to adjust a decoder's CVs to eliminate a sudden lurch - regardless of whether you are using automation or not.  And I'm sure the average DCC modeller uses default CVs and wouldn't necessarily know that tweaking Back EMF in this way is the solution to this erratic decoder behaviour.

 

I think I am an average type of modeller....at least I hope so.   I think most average modellers perhaps draw the line after adjusting CV's 2,3,4,5 and 6.  I certainly didnt know about that other cv alteration, and had no advice from the manufacturers as to that end.

[Sunnysa]

I think I am an average type of modeller....at least I hope so.   I think most average modellers perhaps draw the line after adjusting CV's 2,3,4,5 and 6.  I certainly didnt know about that other cv alteration, and had no advice from the manufacturers as to that end.

 

In my 18+ yrs op DCC all the average DCC modelers I know don't want RR&CO or any automation they much prefer to drive their trains. Not have a computer do it for them.

 

 Please don't get me wrong I am not in any way knocking those that do want automation but,IMHO, RR&CO etc operators are not average modelers

 

 Apart from being very expensive RR&CO is very complicated. Far more complicated than learning to adjust a few CVs in a decoder.

 

 I do find it strange that some are prepared to spend untold time learning/programing auto systems but find it difficult or cant be bothered to learn/ program a few CVS other than a few basic CVs.

 

 Personally, I would much rather learn about and fiddle with CVs than spend untold hrs fiddling with RR&CO.

 

 I learn't about the, so called, other CVs by reading decoder instructions and experimenting.

 

 Cv10 and many other CVs is in DCCconcepts decoder instructions.

 

 I agree,to a point, that decoders should not have glitches/lurches etc, but for the price and being prepared to learn and program a few CVs the 2 decoders being discussed are very good value for the non automated layout DCC operator.

 

 Once CVs are sorted to operators satisfaction TCS/DCCconcepts decoders are very reliable and perform slow speed wise etc,etc, as good as any decoder I have used over the yrs. Believe me I have used a lot.

 

 There are those that like Hornby, Bachman,Digitrax, MRC,NCE decoders. Personally I won't have a bar of any of them.

 

 As a friend said to me the other day,  The beauty of this great hobby is that it allows many different views from many that all work in different ways for each individual.

 

 BTW, the friend has spent 0ver 2 yrs programing RR&CO and still going.

 

 Cheers

 

  Ian

[Crosland]

As soon as you add Back EMF control (closed loop feedback control) you are unavoidably into control theory territory.

 

You absolutely need to be able to make adjustments for different motors and mechanics, unless you accept compromise every time. The latter is how Lenz do it (last time I looked), they give you a choice of motor types without really telling you what you are doing. Manufacturers like Zimo, on the other hand, give you the CVs to adjust to get the best from each loco and a comprehensive data sheet.

 

Andrew

[250BOB]

In my 18+ yrs op DCC all the average DCC modelers I know don't want RR&CO or any automation they much prefer to drive their trains. Not have a computer do it for them.

 

 Please don't get me wrong I am not in any way knocking those that do want automation but,IMHO, RR&CO etc operators are not average modelers

 

 Apart from being very expensive RR&CO is very complicated. Far more complicated than learning to adjust a few CVs in a decoder.

 

 I do find it strange that some are prepared to spend untold time learning/programing auto systems but find it difficult or cant be bothered to learn/ program a few CVS other than a few basic CVs.

 

 Personally, I would much rather learn about and fiddle with CVs than spend untold hrs fiddling with RR&CO.

 

 I learn't about the, so called, other CVs by reading decoder instructions and experimenting.

 

 Cv10 and many other CVs is in DCCconcepts decoder instructions.

 

 I agree,to a point, that decoders should not have glitches/lurches etc, but for the price and being prepared to learn and program a few CVs the 2 decoders being discussed are very good value for the non automated layout DCC operator.

 

 Once CVs are sorted to operators satisfaction TCS/DCCconcepts decoders are very reliable and perform slow speed wise etc,etc, as good as any decoder I have used over the yrs. Believe me I have used a lot.

 

 There are those that like Hornby, Bachman,Digitrax, MRC,NCE decoders. Personally I won't have a bar of any of them.

 

 As a friend said to me the other day,  The beauty of this great hobby is that it allows many different views from many that all work in different ways for each individual.

 

 BTW, the friend has spent 0ver 2 yrs programing RR&CO and still going.

 

 Cheers

 

  Ian

You have confirmed conclusively Ian, that I am an average modeller...!!!

 

No RR & Co for me....get all the enjoyment I require from DCC without involving the PC.   That said I have used Decoder Pro a little bit......but dont want to let it take over.

 

As you said.......if the modeller is happy with a particular decoder, then that should be fine for him.  All I really wanted to say was that I found the Lenz ones didnt have the little glitches that the others had......hence I went with the Lenz.  I expect they are more expensive, but I havent priced up the alternatives for a couple of years. 

 

Anyway...off to play trains now........perhaps I should have a look at one or two other cv's other than the basic ones.

 

I'm sure we are both happy with what we use....and both of us give our best and honest advice to others about our experiences.

 

Bob.

[Sunnysa]

You have confirmed conclusively Ian, that I am an average modeller...!!!

 

No RR & Co for me....get all the enjoyment I require from DCC without involving the PC.   That said I have used Decoder Pro a little bit......but dont want to let it take over.

 

As you said.......if the modeller is happy with a particular decoder, then that should be fine for him.  All I really wanted to say was that I found the Lenz ones didnt have the little glitches that the others had......hence I went with the Lenz.  I expect they are more expensive, but I havent priced up the alternatives for a couple of years. 

 

Anyway...off to play trains now........perhaps I should have a look at one or two other cv's other than the basic ones.

 

I'm sure we are both happy with what we use....and both of us give our best and honest advice to others about our experiences.

 

Bob.

Hi bob,

 

 Which Lenz decoders do you use?

 

 I use mostly 4 function decoders for rotating safety beacon on cab roof and/or alternate blinking ditch lights.

 

 4 function Lenz decoders here in Adelaide Sth Aust is aprox $60-$65.

 

 DCCconcepts 4 func decoders are aprox $30 landed in my letter box from DCCconcepts in West Aust.

 

  As I can get DCCconcepts chips to perform as well as most others so no contest really.

 

 Cheers

 

  Ian

[Nigelcliffe]

Price difference in the UK is a pound or so from a DCC-Concepts 4-function to a Lenz Standard.  Retail price of a Lenz Standard is around £18.  (Which suggests Ian should import Lenz decoders from UK retailers, I think the exchange rate is approx. 1.85, so a Lenz decoder would be around Aus$33 - you need to deduct UK VAT (20%) but add postage to those prices, so about the same price as DCC-Concepts... ).

 

 

The price you see reflects the involvement of international freight from maker to distributors (who needs a profit) to retailer.  

In Oz, DCC Concepts are based in Perth, Oz, supplying you directly in Adelaide.   I imagine your Lenz supply chain is retailer, probably distributor in Oz, distributor in USA, Lenz in Europe.  Lenz is based in Austria in Europe, so supply chain to UK is short.  

[250BOB]

Hi bob,

 

 Which Lenz decoders do you use?

 

 I use mostly 4 function decoders for rotating safety beacon on cab roof and/or alternate blinking ditch lights.

 

 4 function Lenz decoders here in Adelaide Sth Aust is aprox $60-$65.

 

 DCCconcepts 4 func decoders are aprox $30 landed in my letter box from DCCconcepts in West Aust.

 

  As I can get DCCconcepts chips to perform as well as most others so no contest really.

 

 Cheers

 

  Ian

 

G'day Ian

I didnt realise you were in Adelaide.......now I understand the SUNNY S.A. name.................I visited with work a couple of times in the 80's...travelled on the train (The Overland) from Melbourne.....12 hours overnight.  I worked in the Glass Processing industry, and visited a company called Seraphic and also Pilkington Glass, both who decorated glass, i.e. cooker splashbacks etc.,  I sold colours for glass.

I currently have a 22 yr old cousin living there too, but only till April. 

 

I use Lenz Standard decoders...cost me £17 each from my local hobby shop.......I think Nigel above has filled in all the other detail.

 

I do have a few Lenz Silvers...but they dont offer anything extra for my particular requirements.......

 

Bob.

[Sunnysa]

Price difference in the UK is a pound or so from a DCC-Concepts 4-function to a Lenz Standard.  Retail price of a Lenz Standard is around £18.  (Which suggests Ian should import Lenz decoders from UK retailers, I think the exchange rate is approx. 1.85, so a Lenz decoder would be around Aus$33 - you need to deduct UK VAT (20%) but add postage to those prices, so about the same price as DCC-Concepts... ).

 

 

The price you see reflects the involvement of international freight from maker to distributors (who needs a profit) to retailer.  

In Oz, DCC Concepts are based in Perth, Oz, supplying you directly in Adelaide.   I imagine your Lenz supply chain is retailer, probably distributor in Oz, distributor in USA, Lenz in Europe.  Lenz is based in Austria in Europe, so supply chain to UK is short.  

 Are lenz stamndards 4 function?

 

 I take point re importing from UK but you may not  know Aust importers of Lenz product will not honor warranty on any Lenz product purchased outside of Aust.

 

 OK, warranty may be honored in UK but postage to and fro is extra cost so what is the point.

 

 Some people may choose not worry about warranty on decoders but I do.

 

 The bottom line is, DCCconcepts decoders suit my purpose and as I said, with a little time and patience tweaking CVs can be made to perform to my satisfaction which is as good as most other decoders.

 

Cheers

 

  Ian

[250BOB]

Are lenz stamndards 4 function?

 

I take point re importing from UK but you may not know Aust importers of Lenz product will not honor warranty on any Lenz product purchased outside of Aust.

 

OK, warranty may be honored in UK but postage to and fro is extra cost so what is the point.

 

Some people may choose not worry about warranty on decoders but I do.

 

The bottom line is, DCCconcepts decoders suit my purpose and as I said, with a little time and patience tweaking CVs can be made to perform to my satisfaction which is as good as most other decoders.

 

Cheers

 

Ian

Ian

The Lenz Standard Plus, is a 3 function decoder.

Bob

http://www.lenzusa.com/1newsite1/Standard+.html

[Sunnysa]

Ian

The Lenz Standard Plus, is a 3 function decoder.

Bob

http://www.lenzusa.com/1newsite1/Standard+.html

 

Thanks Bob.

 

3 function is not enough for me.

 

 What is the price of Lenz 4 function in UK?

 

 Cheers

 

  Ian

[250BOB]

Thanks Bob.

 

3 function is not enough for me.

 

 What is the price of Lenz 4 function in UK?

 

 Cheers

 

  Ian

 

Hi Ian,

The Lenz Standard Plus (10231) is 3 Function........I get mine for £17 from my local shop;

 

The Lenz Silver Plus (10331) is a 4 or 5 Function decoder.....and I can see they are around the £25 area.

 

Check out this link......its a very good and pretty cheap source of Lenz Decoders.

 

http://www.dckits-devideos.co.uk/shop/dcc_digital_loco_sounds/lenz_roco_digital_control_part_2_digital_decoders/

 

Bob.