RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted January 19, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 19, 2011 As Jim pointed out, check rails are compromised in any 4mm scale other than P4. I think you mean S4, P4 has compromises too In that case a rusty, overgrown piece of trackwork would probably look spot on in P4? Does anyone have a pic of such an example they could post? Not a close up but From this topic Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
10800 Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 I have seen layouts with rusty check and wing rails. An exercise probably better kept to home rather than exhibition layouts. There are conflicts between rail rusting that involves any paint or marker, and rail cleaning, which can make 'permanent' rusting of check and wing rails problematic if they get rubbed off all the time. Apparently however there is a gun blue pen in blue (as opposed to the black one) which results in a rusty brown colour. Eileens supply them but they were out of stock last time I asked so I haven't tried it myself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Hi Rod I plan to use gun blue on mine - once everything is fully tested that is. Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted January 19, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 19, 2011 Without check rails on sharp curves, the scale appearance of P4 trackwork is totally compromised. Afterall, there is no middle ground with P4. Wandering a bit off topic but yes, in prototype terms it should have check rails, however we made the decision to not use them as it attracts the eye even more to a sharp curve, whether people agree or not is not part of this discussion though There is (bit of) a middle ground on P4 coach, it's S4 again you are thinking about Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Sorry, I deleted my post after a few minutes as I thought it might start a war. Thanks for your response Beast. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted January 19, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 19, 2011 Sorry, I deleted my post after a few minutes as I thought it might start a war. Thanks for your response Beast. No problem Coach, I wondered where it had gone though Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Crossings and flangeways are really very obviously different in P4, but I will accept that the gauge of well made, ballasted and weathered plain track in 4mm can sometimes be difficult to distinguish, especially at low angles (which the photos presented so far have Which is interesting, because you never get eye level OO layouts at exhibitions, only EM and P4 ones. Build an eye level OO guage layout with decent handbuilt track and see if anyone spots it's OO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyC Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Have I ever regretted using '00', not really, making working models is always going to involve compromise and which ones anyone is prepared to accept is personal. If I was starting in the hobby now with the skills I have now I'd at least consider EM, [as I'd probably consider DCC.] I started serious modelling in 1972 around the time or just before P4 appeared. One of the first layouts I was invoved in [in a very minor way] was an EM gauge layout called Tweedsmuir and I did have one loco converted to EM to run on it. So why do I stick with 00? I like main line trains, with a special interest in the Waveley Route. I don't have enough room at home for a large layout of my own so I'm a member of a Club, whose 4mm layouts are 00. I also have the philosophy that if a good RTR model is available I'll use that and don't want to have to convert everythng. The time saved allows me the to kit/scratchbuild those models that aren't available. On the track front, my club uses SMP track and handbuilt points and we have been asked if a layout is EM before now [and on one occasion if it was P4!]. If 00 is well done I thinks it's difficult to tell, except from head on, providing you don't have the two beside each other so a direct comparison can be made. Regarding the issue of ' It now looks more like modellers of their respective gauges taking a pop at each other' my attitude is it's your layout so what you do is your business. Having said that I can remember when P4 first appeared some of its proponents adopted an extremely arrogant 'Holier than Thou' attitude in their writings, which has regrettably soured relationships between the groups ever since, regrettably because some of the ideas and techniques cross over quite well. Jeremy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy C Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Which is interesting, because you never get eye level OO layouts at exhibitions, only EM and P4 ones. Build an eye level OO guage layout with decent handbuilt track and see if anyone spots it's OO. Many moons ago, when Moby Dick was still a tadpole, i built "Brushford" in OO at eye level. Quite a number of vistors at each exhibition thought it was EM. In a way it was quite gratifying but in another annoying as it brought home what was wrong with the track to me, and whilst I enjoyed the layout it always looked narrow gauge from my point of view operating. It propelled me straight into the arms of the EMGS (i didnt consider myself confident of P4 then) and since then Ive been a lot happier. But to the OP - do I regret that foray into OO? Not at all, part of the learning curve and very confidence building. Do I regret EM and not straight into P4 - again not at all for the very same reasons. Will I regret doing a P4 layout ? probably not, because the time is right for me. Im a great believer in doing things at my pace and not dictated to me by the great and the good (i have enough of that at work lol) and for me evolution, not revolution, has worked admirably. Cue a thread on Darwinism in Model Railways Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Barry Ten Posted January 19, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 19, 2011 Which is interesting, because you never get eye level OO layouts at exhibitions, only EM and P4 ones. Build an eye level OO guage layout with decent handbuilt track and see if anyone spots it's OO. You're right that there aren't so many eye-level 00 layouts but Marc Smith's Hendre Lane is one such, and having operated it for Marc once or twice I can testify that some people are genuinely surprised that it's 00, not one of the wider gauges. Marc used Peco points and (I think) SMP track but the "side-on" effect is very good. My own home 4mm layout has the track set at about 5' 6" off the floor. All my 4mm activity is in 00 and this far down the line I can't see it changing. I accept that it doesn't look as good as EM or P4/S4 but the trade-off for me is being able to build a number of different layouts in a relatively short space of time, rather than being committed to one all-consuming project. I personally have absolutely no problem with accepting that there is an element of compromised realism in my choice of standard but the flipside is being able to do more stuff. I also don't believe in having regrets about anything in life - make your choices, accept them, be happy! It's ultimately just toy trains, innit? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neill Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 As I said earlier, I've modelled in OO. When I came back to the hobby and was deciding which finescale route to go down I liked to the look of P4, and could see little point in EM as it seemed to me to be just as much work but still not really true 4mm scale. Finally opting for O I considered Scale 7, and will probably build in this as well fairly soon. The reason for just normal O finescale is the proximity of a club with a decent layout near home. If/when I build my own layout (when/if I have space) I'd seriously consider S7 or P4 depending on how much room I have, and I'd go for the larger scale if at all possible because I love the mass that 7mm has. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
10800 Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Having said that I can remember when P4 first appeared some of its proponents adopted an extremely arrogant 'Holier than Thou' attitude in their writings, which has regrettably soured relationships between the groups ever since, regrettably because some of the ideas and techniques cross over quite well. This was mainly over 30 years ago - I like to think we're all a bit more grown up about it all now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Jeremy C : Having said that I can remember when P4 first appeared some of its proponents adopted an extremely arrogant 'Holier than Thou' attitude in their writings, which has regrettably soured relationships between the groups ever since, regrettably because some of the ideas and techniques cross over quite well. 10800 : This was mainly over 30 years ago - I like to think we're all a bit more grown up about it all now. Oh we are.........We're as free to chose track gauge as sexual orientation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Jeremy C : 10800 : Oh we are.........We're as free to chose track gauge as sexual orientation. Though some small hotels will not allow 00 gaugers to share the same room..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
corax67 Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 see if I feel the time and expense was justified or whether I should just spend the money in the pub! Hang on a minute - you never mentioned there was a pub option - why are we arguing over the aesthetics of scale standards when there could be drinking to be done Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 We're as free to chose track gauge as sexual orientation. Though some small hotels will not allow 00 gaugers to share the same room..... It used to only apply to people of mixed gauge.B) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PWSlack Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 ..... the problem is that Peco is flat-bottomed rail........ One picture shows Exactoscale F27 Pandrol-clip concrete (plastic) sleepers threaded with Peco code 83 flatbottom rail, with ballast shoulders over the sleeper ends. The other shows Peco code 60 soldered to copperclad sleepers and ballasted with weeds and other assorted dross. 4mm scale - yes. What gauge, though? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Still not showing any pointwork which is the best way to tell. Given that theres no chairs (or spikes) I will stick my neck out and say I think its 00 Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Yes I was hoping this wouldn't decent into gauge fighting. My original post related to whether I could justify the extra time, effort and cost involved in either EM or P4 rather than 00 and while this thread has provided some useful information, and a few useful incites, I am still undecided. So in order to come to a conclusion I have ordered some Exactoscale concrete and wooden fast track sleepers and I will order a point kit from SMP and give point building a go and re-wheel one of the 33s then put this next to some Peco with another 33 and see if I feel the time and expense was justified or whether I should just spend the money in the pub! This thread seems to be walking the tightrope ok just! I think you've made the best choice here to just go and experiment, until you've done that you wont have a true appreciation of the time vs appearance thing based on others comments. P4 certainly costs more in money (unless you have a lathe) as you need new wheels whereas there is normally the option to move existing wheels out by 2mm for EM. As Beast has mentioned P4 does compromise check rail gaps to give you a bit of tolerance in your wheels and b2b whereas what is known as S4 is the exact scaling down and really allows nothing. It can work very well though for the skilled and dedicated builder. As for wear surfaces on the rail head, with most people using nickel silver which is slightly yellow that will make it look slightly odd too. Gun blue eventually wears off too with any abrasive cleaning so you would have to stick to fluid or do a little touch up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caradoc Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 My only regret is that when Mainline and Airfix entered the R-T-R market in the 70s, they used OO rather than HO. Imagine, had they chosen HO Hornby might well have eventually followed suit, and our trains would nowadays be running on correct gauge track. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium spamcan61 Posted January 20, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 20, 2011 My only regret is that when Mainline and Airfix entered the R-T-R market in the 70s, they used OO rather than HO. Imagine, had they chosen HO Hornby might well have eventually followed suit, and our trains would nowadays be running on correct gauge track. Lima tried and failed. Our trains would now be running on correct gauge track, but steam trains would almost certainly be over width, to make the go round train set curves. It's easier for those who care to change the wheel spacing / chassis on an OO model than to try and undo dimensional compromises that would be needed for HO bodywork. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metropolitan Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 IMHO hand made track in 4mm of any gauge can look right and superb. Few could tell the difference between 00/EM/P4. It's when you put stock on it that the visual problem occurs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dilbert Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Re. the subject title, 'Ever Regretted Using 00?' , I think that 'regret' is the wrong verb that has been used.. If you assume that the majority of UK railway based interest people cut their modelling teeth in 4mm / OO gauge.. in that respect, regardless of whether the choice was to go upstream, either to EM and / or P4 or even changing scale, how can that be a regret ? It was (is?) messing around in OO gauge that influenced some people to seek alternative approaches in the same or different scales, for others, this is not an issue. Also the question of compromise comes into play - I think we're back to that 'experience = judgement / judgement = experience' cycle (and IMTS)... dilbert And no regrets whatsoever ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Hi Dilbert I think its more in the context of getting a layout nearly finished or finished and then thinking "I wish i'd used EM or P4" its a regret then. Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 I smile when people say the plastic RTR people should have gone HO before now. Not being funny like, but RTR collectors with aspirations to scale could achieve the things they crave for by building EM or P4 track instead of hinting that everyones 4mm scale locos and accessories should be ditched because HO roundy track is the height of perfection. I'll get me coat.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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