Cottonlegs Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Been buying various MK3's on ebay and am just learning that it's not quite as simple as all that. My aim is to put together a replica of a Euston to Glasgow circa 1983. heres what i have learn't so far .WCML stock has buffers unlike the 125's .Hornby's early stuff is to short ( the 7 window one) .Coach colour is blue. .MK1 break van needed .class 87 loco needed .buffet needed I've got 2 coaches, one is a lima MK3(125 type), the other is a Jouef MK3a with buffers and a lighter blue (thats the colour i need) than the Lima. The detailing at each end of the Jouef is good (C3 lettering) but it feels lighter and cheaper than the Lima. thats about all i know, could you let me know your opinions on which makes you prefere.Also questions that i need to ask sellers on ebay to make sure i end up with early 80's WCML stock. Yours slightly confused but hopeful Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
298 Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Be careful of the scale length Hornby Mk3's, as they include the orange door lock light which is a more recent addition (but by curious fate, came out before Cargo-D repainted their stock into blue & grey). I'm sure someone will be along with an accurate list of workings and coach numbers, but unless you're modelling one of the accelerated 110mph services, can have a pretty much random collection of Mk2 & 3 coaches with Mk1 buffets & BG's. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cottonlegs Posted January 26, 2011 Author Share Posted January 26, 2011 A list of numbers would be very useful.The journey was 110mph and all passanger stock was Mk3. I need to decide which make of carrages to go with. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mod2 Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Welcome Andy, as this is quite an extensive query (and a well-constructed one, for which our thanks), I've moved you to a more appropriate area. Cheers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mark Forrest Posted January 26, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 26, 2011 There are other detail differences between the Lima HST trailers and the Joueff loco hauled Mk 3s. I'm no expert but think the underframe and roof details differ too. From memory a typical formation was something like: (London end) Mk 1 BG Mk 3 FO (x 3) Mk 1 buffet (RBR, I think) Mk 3 TSO (x6) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cottonlegs Posted January 26, 2011 Author Share Posted January 26, 2011 Thanks for your help Mark Good to have confirmation of the formation,thats how i remember it. I've got the LIma and the Jouef in front of me and your right about roof and underframe. the Lima underframe seems to be better quality than the other. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k9-70 Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 A small example of the locomotive hauled West Coast Mk3 sets. No Mk1 Buffet used in any of the sets I observed in the late 80's at the locations listed below. I don't have any details of the services they were working, only numbers. If you need more numbers, drop me a PM. K9-70 Carlisle 31-12-1987 87 101, 92006, 11086, 11070, 10215, 12152, 12079, 12084, 12061, 12081, 12060 87 033, 12083, 12118, 12158, 12165, 12127, 12108, 10206, 11072, 11094, 92034 86 409, 92008, 11021, 11016, 10229, 12062, 12072, 12090, 12100, 12045 Carlisle 29-03-1989 86 246, 96133, 96150, 12101, 12073, 12130, 12112, 12095, 12111, 10228, 11031, 11017, 92039 Preston 04-01-1990 87 004, 90 001, 12167, 12062, 12056, 12105, 12036, 10236, 11068, 11096, 11066, 10233, 11099, 82118 Glasgow Central 06-07-1990 86 233, 12149, 12069, 12117, 12053, 12043, 12054, 10201, 11030, 3280, 82114 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Hi Andy Joueff represent the Mk3a which are loco hauled. The others the Mk3b which are mostly HST sets although there were some mk3b loco hauled. For 1983 your best bet is to stick with the mk3a's HTH Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mark Forrest Posted January 26, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 26, 2011 Think the Mk 3 RFMs (102xx numbers) didn't come along until a bit later than 1983; before then my recollection is of Mk 1s, but guess some services would have used the Mk 3 RFBs in the 100xx number series. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cottonlegs Posted January 26, 2011 Author Share Posted January 26, 2011 Thanks for the numbers. the Jouef is numbered 12004 which looks like were on our way. The Lima is 411163 which looks like a 125 number. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hairyhandedfool Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 HST coaches (4xxxx) are Mk3, Loco-hauled coaches (1xxxx ) are Mk3a or Mk3b. Mk3 have square air conditioning units and no buffers. Generally speaking Mk3a coaches have three smaller air-conditioning units at each end and retractable buffers. Generally speaking Mk3b coaches have square air-conditioning units and retractable buffers. There are exceptions. The prototype Mk3s had three smaller air-conditioning units at each end and buffers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cottonlegs Posted January 26, 2011 Author Share Posted January 26, 2011 well thats alot sorted out in a very short time..Thanks. Now i know the coach needed is a MK3a and the formation is sorted. Here is where the collective knowledge really comes onto it.'s own...What make for the 3a would you recomend ..Lima,Hornby or Jouef. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Joeuff is the only Mk3a available. They have mould lines that need removing and as such a repaint though Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k9-70 Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 I don't have the running numbers of the Lima Mk3 coaches listed below from the Lima 1987 catalogue. Hornby have released some, if not all of the ex Lima Mk3 in various liveries. But I don't have the catalogue numbers for them. Any of the Mk3 coaches listed below can be used either as loco hauled stock or in HST formation except for the Sleeper and ScotRail liveried coaches. K9-70 Lima Blue/Grey Mk3 coaches. Cat No. Description 20 5161 1st Class Open coach 20 5163 Buffet Restaurant coach 30 5366 2nd Class Open coach 30 5367 Sleeper 30 5162 Trailer Guard 2nd (HST) Lima Mk3 Intercity livery coaches Cat No. Description 20 5181 1st Class Open coach 20 5183 Buffet Restaurant coach 30 5368 2nd Class Open coach 30 5369 Sleeper 30 5182 Trailer Guard 2nd (HST) Lima Pullman Mk3 Intercity livery coaches Cat No. Description 30 5374 John Lennon 30 5375 (un-named) 30 5378 Sir John Barbirolli Lima ScotRail Mk3 livery coaches Cat No. Description 20 5181 SC11008 1st Class Open coach 30 5368 SC12024 2nd Class Open coach Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Scottish Modeller Posted January 26, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 26, 2011 Joeuff is the only Mk3a available. They have mould lines that need removing and as such a repaint though Cheers Jim Hi all, Come to Modelrail in Glasgow to see the DEMU guys starting on a rake of MK3a's.... http://modelrail-scotland.co.uk/cms/component/option,com_frontpage/Itemid,1/ Yes - we will be removing the moulded on paint guides! That looks like the first stage at Glasgow. Only have 16 to do..... Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Hornby's early stuff is to short ( the 7 window one) Be careful with this, some of the short Hornby are 8-window coaches (the coach had a clear plastic insert, so the number of windows was dependent on how it was painted). Regarding k9-70's comment, Hornby have only released the ex-Lima TGS and e new 4-window buffet based on (converted from) the Lima 3-window buffet. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
37176 Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 It might be worth mentioning that most of the lower numbered 120xx Standard Class Second Open Mk3a's were used on Glasgow-Edinburgh shove sets. Some may have been ScotRail branded in 1983 and will have 'S' prefix's with their numbers. West Coast sets would've had an 'M' prefix. You'd be wise to check a 1983 coaching stock book. Someone on here must have one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 I've got 2 coaches, one is a lima MK3(125 type), the other is a Jouef MK3a with buffers and a lighter blue (thats the colour i need) than the Lima. Back when these came out model manufacturers were less picky about paint accuracy - both of those will be their respective attempts at the exact same BR standard rail blue and grey livery - some manufacturers did it better than others! As others have said if you want a nice matching rake it might be worth considering a repaint, especially if using old coaches where the poor (by todays standards) paint job has probably faded over time making it even worse. The 102xx Mk3 RFM buffet's didn't appear until the late 1980s, they were conversions from various other Mk3s, including some ex HST vehicles! - That was well past the start of Intercity livery and your chosen 1983 date though. Mainline did an Mk1 RBR buffet which I think would work for the buffet car, and Bachmann do a nice BG full brake which i'm sure they have done in blue/grey. If you want a 110mph set then I have a feeling those two may need swapping onto B5 bogies, rather than the commonwealths they probably will come with, or did they allow 110mph on commonwealths? As Rug says, a platform 5 coaching stock book from 1983 or 1984 would be a great help, it would confirm numbers, allocations, bogies etc on individual coaches. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Mainline did an Mk1 RBR buffet which I think would work for the buffet car, and Bachmann do a nice BG full brake which i'm sure they have done in blue/grey. If you want a 110mph set then I have a feeling those two may need swapping onto B5 bogies, rather than the commonwealths they probably will come with, or did they allow 110mph on commonwealths? I don't think that Commonwealths were, but Replica's B4/B5s are a direct plug in swap for the Mainline bogies and obviously Bachmann do B4s as spares for their coaches. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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