Insulfrog & Electrofrog points

[Chrislock]

I am planning a new N gauge mini layout at the moment using tank engines( M7 and Terrier) and DCC. I have just received some points from Hattons. I decided to go for electrofrog code 55, but intend to turn at least 2 of them into effectively insulfrog, by removing the connecting wire underneath and cutting through the V as close to the point as I can get away with using my dremel cutter. I will also solder 2 new wires underneath, to connect switchblades to relevant running rails to improve conductivity. This should mean a dead spot of no more than 10mm as the loco rolls over the vee - or only one pair of wheels out at a time, which I hope will not affect running/ DCC operation.

The advantage is I get to have metal rails throughout the point from a cosmetic point of view, and lose a lot of complicated wiring and avoid having to buy any more expensive point motors.

If it doesn't work in practice I'll have to consider, bit that is the plan right now.

[Nigelcliffe]

Chris - just wire it properly. If you're bonding the rails to the blades you're doing half the job already, so just finish it off. If you want good running from small locos you need good pickup, which means all track live. You don't need point motors, just a switch associated with the tie-bar movement.

[roundhouse]

How does that allow for expansion/contraction of the track?

 

Keith

As our layouts are portable there is a gap at the baseboard joints. Also there are insulated fishplates either side of turnout frogs and where we still do have electrical section breaks (even on DCC layouts).

 

If you are in a loft or outbuilding with greater temperature differences then yes you probably will need more gaps but even with all the shows we do we get very little problem with expansion and contraction.

[dave flint]

Slightly off topic, and partially duplicating a thread in the "smaller manufacturers" section, what do people think about Peco's new fishplates-with-a-dropper-attached-for-you?  I suspect it will be a relatively expensive solution, but for solder-averse me (and maybe the OP) they sound attractive.  If used everywhere, most sections of track would then be fed from both ends, halving the chance of connectivity failure ...... thoughts?

I've heard of people using that but doing it themselves as a simple job. After all you still need to be handy with soldering to solder the wire end onto a feed wire. Better than using fishplates to transfer power but not as good as doing it 'properly'.

[Vonzack]

I am planning a new N gauge mini layout at the moment using tank engines( M7 and Terrier) and DCC. I have just received some points from Hattons. I decided to go for electrofrog code 55, but intend to turn at least 2 of them into effectively insulfrog, by removing the connecting wire underneath and cutting through the V as close to the point as I can get away with using my dremel cutter. I will also solder 2 new wires underneath, to connect switchblades to relevant running rails to improve conductivity. This should mean a dead spot of no more than 10mm as the loco rolls over the vee - or only one pair of wheels out at a time, which I hope will not affect running/ DCC operation.

The advantage is I get to have metal rails throughout the point from a cosmetic point of view, and lose a lot of complicated wiring and avoid having to buy any more expensive point motors.

If it doesn't work in practice I'll have to consider, bit that is the plan right now.

 

Hi Chrislock,

 

Just some advice on taking a dremel to Code 55 points, don't. The heat generated from the cutting disc will just melt the surrounding sleepers even if you cut in short bursts and I found the gap left in the rail looked way too big, even using a fine 'slitting wheel'. I prefer to use a jewellers saw, which is just a very small bladed coping saw. You can cut through the 'V' in a point in seconds and it leaves a gap similar to an insulated rail joiner. From a normal viewing distance, you wouldn't even know it was there.

 

Cheers, Mark.

[richard hines]

Of course with electrofrog both bits of track the OP is concerned about are electrically part of the frog, so one switched wire does the job, but for insulfrog the best practice as above requires two ...... as this is for a test layout I'd take the chance of not bothering, but that's me, just sloppy ......

 

Slightly off topic, and partially duplicating a thread in the "smaller manufacturers" section, what do people think about Peco's new fishplates-with-a-dropper-attached-for-you?  I suspect it will be a relatively expensive solution, but for solder-averse me (and maybe the OP) they sound attractive.  If used everywhere, most sections of track would then be fed from both ends, halving the chance of connectivity failure ...... thoughts?

I have used fishplates with the correct dcc wire presoldered on to them from a chap on ebay,i think they are a good compromise as I am not at all good at soldering.I have them fairley closely spaced and scotchblock connected to the power bus.

Of course with electrofrog both bits of track the OP is concerned about are electrically part of the frog, so one switched wire does the job, but for insulfrog the best practice as above requires two ...... as this is for a test layout I'd take the chance of not bothering, but that's me, just sloppy ......

 

Slightly off topic, and partially duplicating a thread in the "smaller manufacturers" section, what do people think about Peco's new fishplates-with-a-dropper-attached-for-you?  I suspect it will be a relatively expensive solution, but for solder-averse me (and maybe the OP) they sound attractive.  If used everywhere, most sections of track would then be fed from both ends, halving the chance of connectivity failure ...... thoughts?

[bigdaveadams1]

I've heard of people using that but doing it themselves as a simple job. After all you still need to be handy with soldering to solder the wire end onto a feed wire. Better than using fishplates to transfer power but not as good as doing it 'properly'.

I can solder to the underside of OO no problem. But can't quite manage it in N without melting the sleepers. So I compromised by soldering to the fish plates. I wonder if my soldering iron is too hot/powerful? (60W Digital set to 450º)

[298]

Of course with electrofrog both bits of track the OP is concerned about are electrically part of the frog, so one switched wire does the job, but for insulfrog the best practice as above requires two ...... as this is for a test layout I'd take the chance of not bothering, but that's me, just sloppy ......

 

Slightly off topic, and partially duplicating a thread in the "smaller manufacturers" section, what do people think about Peco's new fishplates-with-a-dropper-attached-for-you?  I suspect it will be a relatively expensive solution, but for solder-averse me (and maybe the OP) they sound attractive.  If used everywhere, most sections of track would then be fed from both ends, halving the chance of connectivity failure ...... thoughts?

 

I can see why they've decided to produce them and there's obviously a market (and probably a steady stream of e-mails or w*shl*st requests), but for me they're a step too far along the road of "plonk 'n play" instead of learning a skill and using it. I can't believe there's a time saving as opposed to making your own, and you'd still have to solder one rail into the fishplate to ensure absolute connectivity.

 

I will never understand why people skimp on wiring- if you're itching to get something running then it might be tempting to go for the minimum or whatever requires the least effort, but then you've got time after testing to get things done right, or have to put up with or try to correct the consequences later.

 

For example, I always carry out the following methods:

 

Draw a wiring diagram at the planning stage

Wire the pointwork to electrically isolate the frog from the switch rails, and switch it using proper contacts.

Bond the switch and stock rails so the point blades are not used for conductivity.

Always use insulated fishplates to stop rail ends expanding and touching, creating a short.

Use a minimum number of connectors.

Solder all wiring to the underside of the rails to keep it hidden.

Use one feed to every piece of rail, and two if the track is embedded and thus harder to replace.

Colour code the wiring as much as possible to aid traceability.

 

It all sounds like more work than necessary, but it's worth it in the long run.

[melmerby]

I can see why they've decided to produce them and there's obviously a market (and probably a steady stream of e-mails or w*shl*st requests), but for me they're a step too far along the road of "plonk 'n play" instead of learning a skill and using it. I can't believe there's a time saving as opposed to making your own, and you'd still have to solder one rail into the fishplate to ensure absolute connectivity.

 

I will never understand why people skimp on wiring- if you're itching to get something running then it might be tempting to go for the minimum or whatever requires the least effort, but then you've got time after testing to get things done right, or have to put up with or try to correct the consequences later.

 

For example, I always carry out the following methods:

 

Draw a wiring diagram at the planning stage

Wire the pointwork to electrically isolate the frog from the switch rails, and switch it using proper contacts.

Bond the switch and stock rails so the point blades are not used for conductivity.

Always use insulated fishplates to stop rail ends expanding and touching, creating a short.

Use a minimum number of connectors.

Solder all wiring to the underside of the rails to keep it hidden.

Use one feed to every piece of rail, and two if the track is embedded and thus harder to replace.

Colour code the wiring as much as possible to aid traceability.

 

It all sounds like more work than necessary, but it's worth it in the long run.

I would add:

 

Always wire up so that sections can be isolated from the main feed in case of unexpected shorts.

 

I recently had reason to be thankful I had done that as I had a short circuit appear and was able to determine where it was within about 15-20mins by disconnecting individual sections, one at a time.

It turned out to something shorting across the frog switch on a Tortoise socket, fortunately easily rectified.

 

Keith

[Kenton]

 

I wonder if my soldering iron is too hot/powerful? (60W Digital set to 450º)

Ouch, yes! you will need to be very quick indeed to avoid the melt. There is more than enough power there to do the job of heating the rail and even with appropriate heat sinks (clips) further along the rail I am not surprised at problems with N rail

 

A 25W "standard" iron is more than sufficient for most tasks from sundry electrical/electronic work right the way up to 7mm etched kits where as the kit grows it becomes one big heat sink so requiring a step up in power.

[bigdaveadams1]

Thanks Kenton, I think I'll pop to the shops tomorrow and get something more suitable.

[Nigelcliffe]

60W is not a problem. The temperature is too high - around 200-220C for standard 60/40 lead/tin solder is correct. That solder will melt at a nominal 188C.

 

With appropriate temperature, a higher wattage iron has advantages over a lower wattage.

 

I use a 50W temp controlled iron most work, including 2mm finescale.

 

Nigel

[bigdaveadams1]

Ah right oh. It's a digital one so I'll take the temperature down to the suggested and give it another bash. Cheers for that Nigel.

[Vonzack]

Don't forget to use a small tip on the iron too.

 

This is what works for me in N (Code 55), 48w Iron set to 300C with a 0.5mm tip:

• Strip one end of the wire (no more than 3mm), twist, flux and tin
• Cut the plastic sleeper away from the bottom of the rail (cutting from sleeper edge to sleeper edge) and make sure you don't leave any bits of plastic flash behind
• Put a small amount of Flux on the bottom of the rail
• Put a small amount of solder on the iron tip
• Hold the wire above the rail ready to solder it and put the tip of the iron on the wire until the solder runs
• Now lower the wire and iron onto the base of the rail and watch for the solder to run again, when it does hold the wire steady and remove the iron.

After around 5s, you should now have a good joint, give it a good tug, if it comes away try again.

 

It's all down to practice and even my instructions will require some variation depending on your solder, iron, tip and wire. Cut some lengths of wire, tin the ends, get some scrap rail and practice before you try it on something you want to keep

 

Cheers, Mark.

[Pete Mc]

Hi chaps,I have a 10 foot by 4 foot layout that is also n gauge.All my points are insulfrog Peco Streamline code 80.Prior to me going over to dcc,I had layed most of the track on the layout and only had the odd stall on points which I later determined to be due to the loco mechanism being caked in oil and grease,now cleaned they run brilliantly.

 

Now the thing is when I went dcc I decided that rather than replace all the points with electrofrog points which would have been fairly expensive due to there being over 30 of them,I set to work by removing them and bonding them electrically.What I did was solder a piece of 5amp fusewire from the stock rail to the switch rail on both rails.This means that you don't need to rely on point blades to provide power to the relevant direction that the loco or train is running.It also means that the closed section of the point is still live so the only thing you need to do is add a feed to the next section or piece of track.

 

As an aside,you don't need to add a feed to the point after the vee either.If you look underneath the point you will see that there are wires recessed into the point webbing which provides power to the bit of track after the vee,otherwise the whole section after the point vee would be dead meaning that feeds would be needed to that section to provide conductivity even in dc.

 

On my layout,the idea of replacing all the insulfrog points and motors which are Seep motors without polarity switching would be ridiculously expensive so it was quickly ruled out,also,its worth pointing out that I knew nothing about polarity switching on electrofrog points and all the associated additional work needed to make them work as it is my first layout that I have built myself.I am looking at building an exhibition layout in the near future so will look into the pro's and cons of using each type of point by way of experimentation.All my loco's,dmu's and hst's are of the larger type,ie not shortwheel based shunters so the need for electrofrog points is less important,however,I am converting all my stock to run dcc sound in them so this may be an additional factor but as I have already mentioned,at the moment I have no slow running issues with any of my sound fitted n gauge stock.They all run perfectly as they are,due in no small part to my diligence in stripping them down and cleaning the wheel backs and pickups,adjusting pickups for good current collection and cleaning the bogie towers to ensure that there is no excess drag and resistance put on the motor.With all this work done,they run like an absolute dream,better than new in fact,and as for the points,I don't have to keepcleaning out the pointblade contacts and rail ends so I get good contact through the point.

 

Pete

[Kenton]

 

60W is not a problem. The temperature is too high - around 200-220C for standard 60/40 lead/tin solder is correct. That solder will melt at a nominal 188C.

 

I have said it before and will say it yet again, and again and again. Temperature has very little to do with soldering.

 

It is the ability of your iron to maintain a temperature adequate to melt the chosen solder at the metal interface. That is all about heat transfer and heat conduction/dissipation. An iron tip at 220'c is certainly hot enough to melt 188'C solder put against it. But place an iron tip at that temperature against a large chunk of metal and the temperature will plummet. If the iron has restricted or insufficient output to adjust very quickly the solder alloy will crystalise at the metal interface forming a cold join (if it forms a join at all). Useless and frustrating soldering. You must adjust the heat output of the iron (with temperature controlled irons) to suit the bulk of metal. Of course the opposite is true. Those of us who use more powerful irons control that output by the use of additional heat sinks to the work to suck away excess heat from beyond the join. We also learn not to hang around. Get in fast make the solder flow and get out fast all without moving the items being joined.

[melmerby]

 I have said it before and will say it yet again, and again and again. Temperature has very little to do with soldering.

 

It is the ability of your iron to maintain a temperature adequate to melt the chosen solder at the metal interface. That is all about heat transfer and heat conduction/dissipation. An iron tip at 220'c is certainly hot enough to melt 188'C solder put against it. But place an iron tip at that temperature against a large chunk of metal and the temperature will plummet. If the iron has restricted or insufficient output to adjust very quickly the solder alloy will crystalise at the metal interface forming a cold join (if it forms a join at all). Useless and frustrating soldering. You must adjust the heat output of the iron (with temperature controlled irons) to suit the bulk of metal. Of course the opposite is true. Those of us who use more powerful irons control that output by the use of additional heat sinks to the work to suck away excess heat from beyond the join. We also learn not to hang around. Get in fast make the solder flow and get out fast all without moving the items being joined.

The mass of the iron & bit can also affect how well it can maintain temperature.

A low mass iron will lose heat quicker than a higher mass one, irrespective of the power input.

Obviously if there is plenty of power the element is more able to keep the bit at the right temperature.

 

At work we used to have some specialist irons for soldering copper sheet. The bits were about 1" x 1" x 2.5" with a blunt chisel end.

They used to take an age to heat up, but conversley didn't lose heat very quickly either.

 

Keith