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LBSC Lewes,based project locos and stock.


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LBSC Terrier 060 being built up, a part built K's kit on the way from Ebay, but in the meantime the chassis to go with the K's body parts arrived first, by post today, a Branchlines etch chassis in N/S, being built un-sprung at the moment. The chassis kit is very detailed, P4 or OO options, with wood or metal brake shoes.

 

The etchings have been filed clean on the edges, holes opened out, and smaller holes drilled through, the spacers soldered in with lead free solder. This has also been used on the rods, as the lead free keeps cleaner and the edges show less on the overlays and joints.

 

Lead free worked fine, full flow, and perfect grip, with a 25 W iron, and Bakers Fluid as flux. many RM members have query the use of lead free, I can only say that it works fine with the right fluxes. Pure tin is more stable than leaded solder anyway, and remains a brighter finish for much longer. As parts get smaller or in another layer 145 degree solder will be used so as not to melt the lead free at all.

 

Quite what motor they intended in the chassis is a mystery, as the frame spacer in the middle fouls most types, but can be filed out to position a conventional gear or a small gearbox. The small 5 pole motor will fit fine with either option, and might just allow a flywheel, dependant on the cab clearances if interior is fitted

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The brake shoes may need attention as they have etched the surround to the holes far too small, it should fit the .6mm wire supplied, but if a .6 drill is used the metal breaks through, the largest that can be drilled is .4mm. I may replace the wire supports for the brakes with micro tubes, and pin from the outside into the tube for a firmer support.

Stephen.

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Quite why the chassis maker has not supplied etched hornblocks or hornways is a bit of a mystery, it has standard cut outs though, and Gibson could be fitted. As it is being done un-sprung, wire can be added in the slot around the hornblock, to represent the edges and block gaps from showing, and then 4mm O/D, 1/8th bronze bearings can be soldered in at the same time. Again why do they not supply these with the kit?

There is space in front of the gearbox to add rods to the cylinders, the reversing levers, and reversing bar, are supplied, but no valve gear etchings, surely a simple addition to the artwork? Adding hornblock etchings and valve gear would have cost little.

 

Stephen.

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.....Quite what motor they intended in the chassis is a mystery, as the frame spacer in the middle fouls most types....

 

This is almost a "trademark" of Branchlines etched chassis - they look nice but the process is not always thought through properly. In fairness, you don't have to rigidly keep to the directions given for spacer positions.

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The actual K's Terrier kit has arrived, all fine condition and usable with the Branchlines chassis, even the bearings! It is glue assembled as far as it got in construction,I might do some soldering to improve.( Whisper it , the motor actually works,.... but is staying as a spare part).

 

The K's wheels are usable!!, they have a D Axle on the gear drive axle, but plain on the leading and trailing wheels, and all have no wobble or eccentricity, and no rust.

 

The chassis fits with the length adjusted, might require a touch of packing to get ride height correct.No sandboxes are in the box, I'll make them in brass with the pipes etc in copper.

 

The only major replacement required is the main drive gear, which is one of the nighmare plastic ones that fit the D flat axles, the minor replacement is the plastic handrail knobs..shudder!! Picture soon....

 

Stephen.

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You highlighted that no Sandboxes are included with the K's Kit.

As you have not mentioned which Terrier you are building and I can only assume it is likely to be an A1 type if early LBSC engine as the K's Terrier Body I have is the A1 type with short bunker.

If so, the A1's did not have external sandboxes on chassis, this was reserved for the A1X's. The original A1's had three sandpipes, two at front and one RHS at rear.

The front sandboxes where an integral part of the front wheel splashers and the rear sandpipe was fed from within the cab.

 

I am building LSWR Terrier 735 prior to refit in 1912 using a Comet Chassis in P4.

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I have an unbuilt Westward Terrier complete with Perseverence chassis, is this the same kit? (not the chassis obviously!).

 

I was not aware that Westward had done a Terrier, several suppliers have done chassis. The K's is the equivalent of Boxhill as far as I know, not one of the later or re-build members of the LBSC class. Is the Westward a whitemetal kit? or an etched kit?

 

Stephen.

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You highlighted that no Sandboxes are included with the K's Kit.

As you have not mentioned which Terrier you are building and I can only assume it is likely to be an A1 type if early LBSC engine as the K's Terrier Body I have is the A1 type with short bunker.

If so, the A1's did not have external sandboxes on chassis, this was reserved for the A1X's. The original A1's had three sandpipes, two at front and one RHS at rear.

The front sandboxes where an integral part of the front wheel splashers and the rear sandpipe was fed from within the cab.

 

I am building LSWR Terrier 735 prior to refit in 1912 using a Comet Chassis in P4.

 

Thanks for the sandbox detail, I had realised what was going on from study of the details from published details on the net. Other deatails like the saddle, smokebox lenght and diameter and even cab height vary on the re-builds and A1X.

 

There's quite a bit of detail out there on the preserved ones, but at the moment it is being built as early type, with the wooden block brakes, and may ,if my patience holds out, be painted in the original livery. I have done one before in originl, all hand painted, took about a month to complate, multiple masking to do the lot by air brush spraying, including the lining, and all in gloss finish! I may give up and do it in Southern livery, despite the wood block brakes, as arthritis and my eyes may not allow such fine work these days.

 

The purchased Ebay loco had been started, and the main body assembled, then the original K's chassis assembled, at which point the builder gave up, typical of the kits I am afraid. They had even done the pickups, and tried to get it running.

 

What defeated him was the quartering, which is not automatic despite the D ended axles, and the side rods , which were etched, not quite matching the stamped brass sideframes, by about 40/50 thou.

 

My original intention was just to rescue the kit with the K's parts, but there was the Branchlines chassis available at the same time, albiet adding a lot to the cost.

 

The kit is 100%, and was far cheaper than another K's Terrier on Ebay that was un-started. The total cost of the K's plus Branchlines is about the same as an un built on Ebay.

 

The body was part assembled with Epoxy, so I have continue with modern glue, except for steps etc., where low melt solder is stronger. The joints were not "fettled" or "filed", but were put together quite well.

 

All the joints are now flush, and have filler or superglue filler added to smooth them over. The major parts have been used, with some replacement like the tank water fillers, whch were poor mismatched castings. Dome and funnel were usable.

 

The plastic handrail knobs have been replaced with K's brass hand rail knobs, and metal pipes added etc, but I am sure that the details altered a lot over the years.

 

The safety valves need replacement, as the whitemetal parts are a bit short, and brasss looks better!, same for the whistle.

 

Being an early K's set of masters they are simple details, no rivets, or even handrail details for the cab, or any attempt at the interior, which was occupied by the old style K's motor at first.

 

This kit has the HP2 motor with integral gear frame, much smaller, and it actually works, as the original builder has epoxied the motor together, and fitted a brass bearing to the motor.

 

However the motor is only a three pole, and forces you to use the plastic gear wheel, and the dreadful D profile axle , as the gear has to use them to work.

 

The leading and trailing wheels are plain axles, and had one spare plain from another kit, the 260 Mogul, which is due Ultrascale wheels and axles, so the axle set is now normal, and a better 5 pole motor can be used.

 

The new 5 pole motor is small, but powerful and near silent, but needs a brass gear frame added, and a suitable worm and gear sourced. I have a box full of assorted types, I have got to find a matched set that will fit the small space available.

 

It should just be possible to get a flywheel in, and still have a simple cab interior, and a floor, completely left off the Keyser kit. I have an assortment of lost wax parts for HO which will provide some details like a scale reversing lever etc.

 

The driving wheels from the kit are quite usable, amazing for K's, they are accurate in appearance and crank throw, and look good with the Branchlines side rods. The only addition will be covers over the screw heads and the counterweights added to each driver, made in brass from turned sheet. I have polished up one of the wheels and it comes up well, no scars or nicks so common on K's wheels. They quarter well, and take the side rods, and all turns over with no binds whatsever.

 

The Branchlines chassis is scale, the right wheelbase, K's is slightly out, and the rods are not right to scale by 1mm out. Thankfully the wkeels line up under the whitemetal splashers.

 

P4 was mentioned and the K's makes this difficult, as the front splashers are too tight. This is being kept to 00 to allow club and home running, and with the brakes fitted along with the outer pull rods etc it does not look too bad .

 

As the chassis is simple, and the wheels true, I have decided against springing, it may be changed later on, the bearings are replaced with 1/8th inch internal brass tubes, with fit the 4mm holes in the etched frames. They are cut to allow slight sideplay, not much is needed with such a short wheelbase. The tubes allow about 16 thou loose fit, so the slight loose fit will allow a bit of give over the track, even with out springing.

 

The Branchlines chassis has pre-etched holes for brake supports, which are fouled by the wheels, so the wires will be cranked slightly to get an accurate fit. The fouling would happen with P4 wheels and springing would foul even worst. No attempt has been made to provide the internal coupling rods or valve gear, although the reversing lever and lifting links are provided, perhaps a bit of joined up think should be done in the design of the etchings should be done, it costs little to supply al these parts, even if not used.

 

Branchlines also place the frame spacers just where thy foul most gears and motors!, but easily cured. Again it should not happen on a relatively expensive chassis kit, which does not supply bearings, horn blocks, hornways etc., in the kit as well.

 

I am using the cast buffers for the moment, and adding screw link couplings and other vacuum pipes in brass etc.

 

Photos to follow.

 

Stephen.

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I was not aware that Westward had done a Terrier, several suppliers have done chassis. The K's is the equivalent of Boxhill as far as I know, not one of the later or re-build members of the LBSC class. Is the Westward a whitemetal kit? or an etched kit?

 

Stephen.

 

Whitemetal which is why I wondered if its the old K's kit. Castings are crude by modern standards but useable. There are parts to model almost every variation. The Perseverence chassis was designed by Rod Neep. Romford wheels are included. I can post photos if there's interest.

 

My intention is to build this as a contractors loco, several Terriers were sold to contractors or scrapped early.

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Shots of the cleaned up body, with added detailing done so far, the pipes from the smokebox to the tank need proper copper ones with brass flanges,

No cab work so far, it can go in from below as a unit. The back head can be moved into the cab a touch to clear the flywheel and motor.

The connecting rod nuts can be thinned down a bit, the moulded in crankpins have already had the plastic collar reduced to get a snugger fit with the thicker bosses. when the axle bearings are soldered in the edge of the hornways can be filled in with wire.

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Stephen.

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The original K's offering had handrail stanchions on either side of the doorway, which I'm pretty sure no Terrier ever really had, though there were so many variations as time went on that it's hard to be 100% sure of this.

 

Lovely engines, the Terriers! The K's kit is certainly an A1 (with the short smokebox) rather than the rebuilt A1X, so the original livery would be appropriate. Indeed, when it first came out K's even included the paint for this in the kit.

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Whitemetal which is why I wondered if its the old K's kit. Castings are crude by modern standards but useable. There are parts to model almost every variation. The Perseverence chassis was designed by Rod Neep. Romford wheels are included. I can post photos if there's interest.

 

My intention is to build this as a contractors loco, several Terriers were sold to contractors or scrapped early.

 

I've arrived a bit late to this thread. The Westward kit is not in any way related to the Ks. Though the whitemetal castings have a bit of flash on them, the Westward is streets ahead of the Ks in terms of chassis and body quality. The Branchlines chassis looks very similar to the Perseverance judging by the pics above. I have a Westward Terrier to build too, but difficult finances are preventing me getting the wheels, motor, and some other details at the moment, plus my soldering iron needs replacing.

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The original K's offering had handrail stanchions on either side of the doorway, which I'm pretty sure no Terrier ever really had, though there were so many variations as time went on that it's hard to be 100% sure of this.

 

Lovely engines, the Terriers! The K's kit is certainly an A1 (with the short smokebox) rather than the rebuilt A1X, so the original livery would be appropriate. Indeed, when it first came out K's even included the paint for this in the kit.

According to all the photos I've got, Terriers had vertical handrails either side of the doorway throughout their lives. The K's kit even came with waterslide transfers for the lining and the name Boxhill.

 

Just a point, the Brighton was a Westinghouse line, so no vacuum pipes, the Westinghouse pipes provided were generally smooth rather than the ribbed effect of a vacuum hose.

 

One of the problems I had with building the K's kit in P4 was getting the cast cab footsteps in. I gave up in the end, and would have gone for an etched alternative, perhaps the Mainly Trains ones.

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According to all the photos I've got, Terriers had vertical handrails either side of the doorway throughout their lives. The K's kit even came with waterslide transfers for the lining and the name Boxhill.

 

Just a point, the Brighton was a Westinghouse line, so no vacuum pipes, the Westinghouse pipes provided were generally smooth rather than the ribbed effect of a vacuum hose.

 

One of the problems I had with building the K's kit in P4 was getting the cast cab footsteps in. I gave up in the end, and would have gone for an etched alternative, perhaps the Mainly Trains ones.

 

Yes the clearances for P4 are very tight, the steps and the front splashers foul, but it was designed in the late 1950's, long before P4. Even 18mm is tight. I did one in P4 about 1969, which used handmade brass wheels, the K's kit had cast white metal wheels with brass chromed rims that fell off a bit too easily for re-turning!

As far as I can see all Terriers have cab handrails, the K's kits I assembled commercially never had cast lugs or holes marked, they are added soldered to the cab inside and cranked to get them though the door way and then down to the footplate.

 

Does anybody know if waterslide LBSCR transfers are still done for the A1 Terrier?

 

Stephen.

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Shot of the cab and boiler top, now with lost wax brass washout plugs, and the pump has some plumbing around it, with lost wax brass taps and brass unions. The cab corner of the roof requires attention, the edge is rubbed off by the original owner, will have to add dabs of whitemetal solder and then I can file it back to shape.

Cab handrails to attach by soldering tomorrow, along with a new brass whistle and safety valves, then the cab interior, which is relatively plain.

Stephen.

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A photo I took last year at Tenterden, it shows the pump and the Tapered cab handrails, which are on al the class. The K's casting for the pump is a bit small and totally un-detailed, but I have added similar piping already. with some HO lost wax details that were spare.

 

The floor is raised from the footplate, and I have traced enough pictures of the interior to do a slightly simplified practical 4mm version in brass and nickel silver.

 

I may add a brass rim to the cab roof, the sot metal "rubs" easily, and damages the rim, so a strip of very fine brass will be formed, a bit over height, then soldered on and then filed down to leave the correct rim with the raised ledge strip.

This will be much tougher, and add to the finer appearance.

Stephen.

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Stephen

Thanks for the photo taken at Tenterden as it has raised some more queries in my mind.

The Westinghouse pump seems to be in a higher position than when originally built. When new the pump looked as it was almost touching the footplate, yet by 1910 or so they seemed to have been moved up a few inches, although this is a minor modification I have not seen mentioned. I also think that the later pump diameter is slightly larger, but that is very subjective.

The raised cab floor seems to be a later addition too, as nothing is visible in early photos, at least nothing comes past the splashers, but subsequently bits of flooring appear, perhaps installed by the drivers themselves, particularly following the A1X rebuild, when access to the sandbox in the floor was no longer required. Looking through Middlemass Stroudley and his Terriers, I noticed for the first time in a 1906 photo that No 80 Bookham had acquired a rather sweet little protruding platform at the cab entrance, carefully cut around the vertical handrails.

The washout plugs are a nice detail, but I am not sure whether they were visible on the Terriers, as the cladding to the top of the boiler formed part of a sort of saddle support for the tanks, and appears to be continuous in the one or two views I have that show this area, but they also may be a later addition.

How do you intend forming the extension of the handrails to the smokebox? The way the operating rods for various functions run inside the main handrails means the diameter is much reduced for part of their length, making things rather difficult.

In Handel Kardas's Portrait of the Terriers there is a Hambleton sketch of the interior of the cab, or at least the boiler backhead details, which might be of use. This book also has some useful views of Fenchurch in pieces, during restoration.

Waterslide transfers for the Stroudley lining are available via the Brighton Circle, but sadly the supplier of lettering has had to call it a day following the demise of his Alps printer.

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Thanks for the details, always useful. The K's can't take much more detailing, the washout plugs are on the Terrier loco at Tunbridge Wells on the Spa line. The K's pump is smaller than the current ones, they were changed. The A1X seem to have acquired tank front handrails as well, as had some earlier A1's on rebulding.

 

The controls in the hollow handrail to the smokebox appear to have been a slow addition, or changed, over the years, or at least the preserved ones are all different. Fine fuse wire and a brass scrap filed to shape on one side seems right. Fuse wire can allow be used for the whistle pull rod, the whistle has been turned, but not fitted yet, as are the tank fillers, now in brass rather than whitemetal. A padlock will be needed for the toolbox at the rear.

 

The uneven cast cab roof edge has been corrected with a new brass rim, but without the raised edge, the white metal is none too accurate to get it even at only 10 thou high, so it has been left flush like most models do. The steps are added, the next thing is the condensing pipes.

 

The brass rim on the roof now makes it rectangular, and has increase the size to about scale, as the k's castings were undersized.

 

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Stephen.

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According to all the photos I've got, Terriers had vertical handrails either side of the doorway throughout their lives. The K's kit even came with waterslide transfers for the lining and the name Boxhill.

 

Just a point, the Brighton was a Westinghouse line, so no vacuum pipes, the Westinghouse pipes provided were generally smooth rather than the ribbed effect of a vacuum hose.

 

One of the problems I had with building the K's kit in P4 was getting the cast cab footsteps in. I gave up in the end, and would have gone for an etched alternative, perhaps the Mainly Trains ones.

 

You misunderstand me; Terriers do indeed have vertical cab handrails (I never said they didn't!) but they are located right in the door opening and not mounted on the outside cab / bunker wall; nor are they held in place with 'handrail knobs', which is what K's provided.

 

They used the same dodge with some other kits as well. As always, photos of the prototype are the best guide.

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The lever on the outside of the smokebox - controlled by a control from the cab - was a feature of the first batch of Terriers, and was not repeated on subsequent builds; it was meant to control the flow of exhaust steam into the tanks via the condensing pipes.

 

The first batch also lacked Westinghouse brakes, which only came in with the final eight of the 1877 build; they were, of course, retro-fitted to the others quickly enough, but the precise arrangements differed from batch to batch, and of course subsequent rebuilding and modifying have had an effect.

 

Finally, the originals were not fitted with injectors, which Stroudley did not like in conjunction with condensing (they're not completely reliable when working with hot water!); when these were subsequently added they were placed in all sorts of odd locations. Photos, again!

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With most of the body done or detailed , It's back to the chassis, and sourcing some decent gears, I think the Alan Gibson gears sound about right, but I'll have a look round the workshop and see if there is anything suitable there already. They have to be small, about 13 mm max, and fit a 1.5mm shafted motor, although sleeves could be used on 3/32 or 2mm worms.

 

 

If I raise the motor position above the frames, I have two precision 1:1 spur gears of 10mm diameter, which could transmit the drive from a larger gear higher up in the gear box.

 

K's original used the old style long double shafted motor, and required the front axle to be driven, but by the later days they changed to the HP2 with integral gear frame, driving the middle axle. Both foul the tiny cab.

 

The FE 5 pole I have will just clear a backhead as long as it is moved into the cab a couple millimetre and still allow a slim flywheel to be used.

 

The wheels are really quite good, but the flanges could be reduced a bit to RP-25 height, and given a good polish to help prevent rust. Axle screw covers will be needed as well as the counter weights added to the wheels. They are correct 14.5 back to back, but have wider tyres than RP-25, but are correctly tapered on the tyres. The spokes and throw are correct, the general appearance is very good. They seem to be made from harder plastic than usual for K's. They quarter perfectly with the Branchlines Chassis and rods, no binds whatsoever.

 

Stephen.

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With the new tank fillers in brass, a matching pair, unlike the undersized and mismatched Keyser castings.The hinges and clasp will be added next along with the safety valves.

The gears are on order as I had none suitable to hand.

Stephen.

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