Guest Belgian Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 I'm hard pressed to think that accolades for Hornby's accuracy would be awarded for the descriptions of their models, either on-line or in the catalogue. The models themselves may be very good, but they are struggling to get their marketing collateral correct. Admittedly it is a tough problem. We are a pedantic bunch and it is very easy to make mistakes with hundreds of items in a catalogue. There are an awful lot of clangers though. I recall a catalogue a couple of years ago with a 14xx wearing a Collett shirtbutton described as being suitable for the 1950s. There have been a lot of these kind of mistakes in the last few years. Well, at least they used to know what their model's prototype was! JE Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 2850 Grimsby Town would have a LNER Group early standard tender. 2837 Thorpe Hall would have a GER type tender. Is this what you mean LNER Tom? The difference in boilers modelled is also a factor (one type having more washout plugs than another, which is what makes one a B17/6 and one a B17/2). Can't remember which way round we had it in our discussion last night Tom, but going by the 2011 release pictures, they were B17/6 and B17/2 in their mockup pictures, with, as Larry says, one LNER group standard tender, and one GER type tender. If they are now B17/2 and B17/1, with the same tender types, then swapping them to get a B17/6 with an LNER group standard tender, and a B17/2 with a GER tender, won't work for the names/numbers we outlined. Confusing? Greatly...given me a right headache all day thinking about it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Something I have just noticed on the listing. B17s on here are listed as Thorpe Hall B17/1 and Grimsby Town B17/2..... all previous material has said and shown (Hornby website) Thorpe Hall to be a B17/2 and Grimsby Town B17/6. Has something changed or is this just a mistake on the list? The B17s seem to have a complex history. There is a description here on the online LNER encyclopedia. According to this, both Thorpe Hall and Grimsby Hall were rebuilt as B17/6 locomotives in 1957 and 1958 respectively. What are the modelled periods for the Hornby models? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Apologies to S A C Martin.... I was editting my entry and managed to delete it instead....... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Apologies to S A C Martin.... I was editting my entry and managed to delete it instead....... No apologies necessary chap! I've done that a few times myself, accidentally hit enter and then it disappears Trying to work it out for you Tom if you can get the combination you want without repainting. Not sure at the minute but if Hornby have changed the sub classes to the names, it presents a headache for anyone who wants a B17/2 boiler type with an LNER group tender (like me...) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LNER Tom Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 No apologies necessary chap! I've done that a few times myself, accidentally hit enter and then it disappears Trying to work it out for you Tom if you can get the combination you want without repainting. Not sure at the minute but if Hornby have changed the sub classes to the names, it presents a headache for anyone who wants a B17/2 boiler type with an LNER group tender (like me...) If it works out like Hornby site intend...then we are fine and can do our little swop. To go back to what Ozexpatriate said...Thorpe Hall indeed became a B17/6 quite late....so having her with Early Crest with what Hornby have been showing makes sense as a B17/2. I am thinking that it's a mistake on the list showing on this thread....I hope Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Redskalie Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Hornby Newsletter just turned up in my mailbox. http://static.Hornby.com/files/newsletter-issue-31-march-2011-550.pdf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 9, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 9, 2011 I'm hard pressed to think that accolades for Hornby's accuracy would be awarded for the descriptions of their models, either on-line or in the catalogue. The models themselves may be very good, but they are struggling to get their marketing collateral correct. Admittedly it is a tough problem. We are a pedantic bunch and it is very easy to make mistakes with hundreds of items in a catalogue. There are an awful lot of clangers though. I recall a catalogue a couple of years ago with a 14xx wearing a Collett shirtbutton described as being suitable for the 1950s. There have been a lot of these kind of mistakes in the last few years. I spoke to Simon Kohler about potentially misleading catalogue images last year at the Kernow show and he said that he didn't think they did themselves any favours sometimes because, possibly, of reliance on computer generated/modified images with insufficient attention to detail (I had raised the specific issue of the 'Castles' where some images suggested inaccuracies which in fact didn't exist when the 'real' locos came along but which had in one case put me off placing an advance order). He seemed hopeful that this sort of thing might be rectified but clearly it is a difficult area when pressure is on to get out a very large catalogue although I seriously wonder who edits this rather expensive tome? Wider ranging problems - such as the Class 5 error - could well be down to either inexperienced staff or possibly the use of an agency? Let's face it - there are plenty of websites around with daft errors Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 9, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 9, 2011 Can't remember which way round we had it in our discussion last night Tom, but going by the 2011 release pictures, they were B17/6 and B17/2 in their mockup pictures, with, as Larry says, one LNER group standard tender, and one GER type tender. Confusing? Greatly...given me a right headache all day thinking about it! They went through this sort of thing with the 'Castles' where they were using pics in the catalogue, and in some cases on press releases, which misrepresented the detail of the loco they were claiming to represent as 50XX. But the encouraging thing was that they generally got the detail variations right on the actual locos at time of sale. Perhaps we have the same sort of thing happening again as even a 'Castle' body sample on display at shows was a right mixture just to put you off a bit more - fortunately it didn't Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Neal Ball Posted March 9, 2011 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted March 9, 2011 There are a good many comments on here since I last looked yesterday. Its turned into a bit of a rant aimed at some RMWeb members, which is un-called for. They seem to be from new members, sorry but that's not the way to win friends and influnce people. I made the point that it is only our hobby and we can not make demands of a supplier. However, when a product was due to be delivered in September 2009, in what ever terms you look at it, its late! - Ok these things happen, the moulds were faulty, back to the drawing board - no problem. I thought it was encouraging that Hornby posted at Christmas that they accepted there schedule has slipped behind and laid out what the new schedule was going to be to get them back up to date. But at Christmas they also added more models to the schedule. Common (and commercial) sense, would suggest you get ahead before trying to go forward. Tintagel Castle most recent delivery date was due to be March 2011, yet does not appear in the list of March releases as shown on the Hornby website, plus we had confirmation from a supplier that the model was not to be seen on the suppliers part of the Hornby website either. I dont see it is relevant to me where the factory is. I just want faith in Hornby that they will deliver. Not too much to ask for. On-going delays are likely to lead to a further loss of faith in any one company which could have a detrimental affect on future sales. As for my comments that I am surprised no-one from Hornby comments on RMWeb. Is just that, I am surprised. - I would have thought they keep an eye on what goes on. Rather than all the speculation, maybe a comment would be better! Last night I sent an email to Hornby (as stated previously), so far I have not received a reply. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mod2 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Sorry, How many weeks do I need to be on before I am allowed an opinion? And who is "all"? It's nothing to do with length of time here and your opinions are not necessarily invalid, but you've already been asked to moderate your tone. Let me remind you: Whilst there are components of truth in your perspective; the manner in which you communicate it is unlikely to be conducive to a cordial discussion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Err... yes they do. If they don't ship product, they don't make any money. From a business standpoint, they need a consistent income stream. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough when I wrote "new products", in which I meant new product lines rather than new stock. Hornby will survive by keeping the retailers supplied with products which aren't necessarily new product lines (at least in the short to mid term). Their income does not collapse if say the 4VEP is 6 months late, especially if there is no competing product against it in market. Missing the Christmas market with a particular product is not as critical as it is for other manufacturers (for instance shipping all your Easter Eggs post Easter would be bad...). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D605Eagle Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 When people profane a Companies name without substance or knowledge of the whole picture, I consider it prejudice and offensive. Is that the same as making rash insulting statements like "Those that can, do. Those that cannot, teach"? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Perhaps I wasn't clear enough when I wrote "new products", in which I meant new product lines rather than new stock. Hornby will survive by keeping the retailers supplied with products which aren't necessarily new product lines (at least in the short to mid term). Fair enough, though in this world of batch production runs, I'm not sure there is a constant stream of existing products being delivered. Their income does not collapse if say the 4VEP is 6 months late, especially if there is no competing product against it in market. Missing the Christmas market with a particular product is not as critical as it is for other manufacturers (for instance shipping all your Easter Eggs post Easter would be bad...). Missing the Christmas market for an individual product was never the issue. (I personally think they were 6 months late with the Toy Story 3 set, but that's just me.) There are two things in play. 1. They had unexpectedly poor sales through the Christmas period - which according to Hornby is their best time of year. This caused them to reduce their annual guidance. It does not spell disaster, but is a sharp change from the tone of their December interim report based on results through September 2010. 2. It's not about incomes shunting to zero, it's about missing forecasts. The further behind they fall on their projected deliveries, the further behind they will fall on their projected earnings for the next financial year. Again this does not spell ruin, but consistently missing guidance due to an inability to ship product is problematic. Hornby has admitted supply chain problems ever since the financial crisis at Sanda Kan that ultimately led to its acquisition by Kader in November of 2008. What surprises me most here is the range of reactions to objective opinions on Hornby's performance. Personally I am a big Hornby fan and wish them, Bachmann Branch Line and Dapol nothing but success. No doubt they a company of good people doing their best. I like their products. I purchase their products, and look forward to purchasing more (when they can ship the ones I am anticipating.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
valeofyork Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I'm still waiting for the Modelzone-exclusive East Coast HST. It was going to be September, but when there was no sign of it by December I emailed the nearest Modelzone shop to ask if they had any idea when it might arrive, and was told some time in January. The Modelzone website was subsequently changed to say that it was expected in January - which it still says and the product is still listed as 'coming soon'. Can it really be that difficult for Hornby to sort out the problems with their supply chain? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 10, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 10, 2011 What surprises me most here is the range of reactions to objective opinions on Hornby's performance. Personally I am a big Hornby fan and wish them, Bachmann Branch Line and Dapol nothing but success. No doubt they a company of good people doing their best. I like their products. I purchase their products, and look forward to purchasing more (when they can ship the ones I am anticipating.) I quite agree. In recent years Hornby have delivered some excellent stuff into the market which has rightly won plaudits from the hobby's media and their customers (including me, with enough Hawksworth's to form a couple of trains - and the 'Castles' to haul them). But they do seem to be continuing to suffer from supply side problems - or something which hints of a not entirely 'organised' approach - and not offering any explanation for something which at times clearly has embarassed their marketing 'face' in the hobby (SK). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted March 10, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 10, 2011 I too can be frustrated when a model fails to appear when expected, but if the delay is not too long, then so be it. I imagine that, once Hornby's production gets behind schedule, it has to make commercial decisions about which "delayed" models should be given earlier production slots and which are allowed to be delayed even longer, so that not everything slips which would be even worse for their reputation. This must be quite a difficult task when negotiating with manufacturer(s) that don't produce models only for them - I wonder if Hornby has a representative permanently based at Sanda Kan for this?. In this context, Hornby seems to me to favour ensuring one livery/tooling variant at least is produced more quickly, allowing the others to follow later. Hornby is a much bigger company now too, so also has to maintain production of "Hornby International" items under the Jouef, Lima, Rivarossi and Arnold brands, so it is not just about getting UK outline models produced. Looking at Hornby's italian site there are plenty of new models still to arrive, although no due dates are shown. I'm not trying to make excuses for Hornby. I do think it is incredible that revised availability dates announced at Christmas, so only 2 or 3 months ahead, are being missed; shouldn't the models already have been on the production line allowing for the time it takes for the containers to get from China to the UK by sea, released by Customs, delivered to Hornby, checked in the warehouse and then distributed to retailers? I certainly hope Hornby does sort out it manufacturing problems once and for all and soon, but at the end what matters to me is that Hornby is around to continue supplying UK outline OO scale models in the long term. In the meantime, it looks like we are going to have to be very patient... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium spamcan61 Posted March 10, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 10, 2011 Fair enough, though in this world of batch production runs, I'm not sure there is a constant stream of existing products being delivered. I doubt it too, one batch and that's your lot seems to be the way now, unless the item is particularly popular. Missing the Christmas market for an individual product was never the issue. (I personally think they were 6 months late with the Toy Story 3 set, but that's just me.) The fact that this set is often available for around 25 - 30 quid (Amazon until recently, some Asda stores) suggests they were indeed too late, or made too many for the remaining market window. Customer reviews tend to be poor as well:- http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/B003FGWHO8/ref=cm_cr_pr_recent?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 10, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 10, 2011 (re the Toy Story set) The fact that this set is often available for around 25 - 30 quid (Amazon until recently, some Asda stores) suggests they were indeed too late, or made too many for the remaining market window. Customer reviews tend to be poor as well:- http://www.amazon.co...nDateDescending The amazing thing about the 'Toy Story' set is that some are still around at over £60 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forester Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Hornby really need to fork out some cash for a serious troubleshooter of some kind to go down to the factory(s) in China and kick some arse, telling them in no uncertain terms to get their house in order as this is getting beyond ridiculous now. They're sliding behind Bachmann big time now, a complete about-turn from the situation a few years ago when it was Bachmann that was seen to be unreliable as to which products it actually delivered and when. At this rate Hornby will only have the Railroad market left. Their catalogue is like products been picked out using a pin, whereas Bachy look to be working to an intelligent plan with both breadth and depth, not just making stuff to hit the headlines for a few days. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium spamcan61 Posted March 10, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 10, 2011 The amazing thing about the 'Toy Story' set is that some are still around at over £60 Indeed; Play, Tesco, ELC and Sainsbury's are all 70 quid or more according to Google. :blink: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium John M Upton Posted March 10, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 10, 2011 What are the chances of Tintagel Castle arriving? Note posted by Hornby on Facebook a few moments ago states they expect Tintagel Castle in stock at the beginning of next month. Looks like even Hornby recognise the expectation and frustration this particular model is causing!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 10, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 10, 2011 Note posted by Hornby on Facebook a few moments ago states they expect Tintagel Castle in stock at the beginning of next month. Looks like even Hornby recognise the expectation and frustration this particular model is causing!! ....... and are reading this thread? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wicor Models Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Call me impatient! - But there is nothing yet on the Hornby website showing the releases for March 2011. I have just tried calling the Customer service number at Margate, but they close at 1pm on a Friday (lucky folks!). What are the chances of Tintagel Castle arriving? Regards, I have just received a "tweet" on the old interweb from Hornby to say that Tintagel Castle will be arriving early next month. I think the old maxim of seeing is believing may come in to play here. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Is that the same as making rash insulting statements like "Those that can, do. Those that cannot, teach"? Yes, old, silly, untrue and very insulting to teachers - also sweet nothing to do with the topic! CHRIS LEIGH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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