Guest jim s-w Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Hi Hugh http://cambrianmodels.co.uk/prototypephotos2/photopages/brspa(b.htm HTH Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Flynn Posted October 18, 2011 Author Share Posted October 18, 2011 Jim sorry any photos of brake caliper / frame? hugh Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Hi Hugh I do but they are not mine so I can't share. They were on fotopic so I can't link to them either. I have to ask though, why don't you already have them? Surely you have crawled all over a real SPA with a camera and a tape measure? Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Note this is a similar VAN so may not be identical, but Jim's right - you should have this sort of photo - I'd cut you some slack if this was a long extinct type, but it isn't... The CAD designer is looking for very different things to what Jim and I are, and he dosn't know the first thing about the prototype YOU need to be looking really critically at every element, and there are people out here that are prepared to to help you, right now you are risking a lot of money on a wagon that is going to be inferior to the 15 year old Cambrian kit. Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugsley Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Is that a VDA, Jon? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Is that a VDA, Jon? No, its one with the two long doors - the 3/4 photo I took of the wagon don't show a painted number, but about half a dozen photo's later there is a photo of a wagon plate 200026, so I *guess* it's that. I might be able to find you VDA photo's later, but most are of the Taperlite versions... as ever I've photographed the unusual not the mundane. J Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted October 18, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 18, 2011 Hi Hugh, This probably isn't much of my business as I am an N Gauge enthusiast but I have been in involved in some model development. Some of the models were good, some less so, and I'd say this: 1) Your model will have one big advantage over the Cambrian version - it's rtr and therefore immediately appeals to a far larger market. Comparisons are irrelevant to all but the purist. 2) Bachmann have done the SPA in N and may well be planning it in OO; therefore if you are going to recoup you need to factor in speed-to-market as a consideration in your business plan. 3) Most modellers have very little idea of what real brake gear looks like, or even how it works. A decent looking body and paint finish will appeal more to them. I think the issues around the bodyside/end are far more urgent than the issues around the brake parts - if you only have limited time/budget for ongoing revisions then I would focus here. By all means listen to well-intentioned and technically accurate advice, but remember this is your project and it's you who has to make the decisions, and who has to pay for them and their consequences. 4) If the photos of the prototyped version don't do it justice, then be vary wary of posting them! 5) Be prepared for criticism no matter what you do. 6) Something about the model will be wrong. This applies to every model that has ever been produced. Good luck with your project. cheers Ben A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugsley Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 No, its one with the two long doors - the 3/4 photo I took of the wagon don't show a painted number, but about half a dozen photo's later there is a photo of a wagon plate 200026, so I *guess* it's that. In which case, it's exactly what I'm after! Any others you've got showing the chassis/underside of it would be much appreciated, please. It was the suspension mount on the far side that made me think it was a VDA, but now I realise that it was the brake gear mount I was looking at - D'Oh! Hugh - Apologies for the thread hijack. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 1) Your model will have one big advantage over the Cambrian version - it's rtr and therefore immediately appeals to a far larger market. Comparisons are irrelevant to all but the purist. I very much disagree Ben. If Hugh plans to sell the rtr version for the same price then yes but comparisons with the Cambrian kit will always be made. The downside to doing something already available. Consider that we are talking about probably the simplest modern wagon to build in the current Cambrian range and the model has to be at least as good. A nice paint job isn't going to cut it these days if it stands out of place with the rest of the train. As for compromises due to fagility, yes we know that has to happen but other manufacturers come up with solutions, the wagon has to look like it was designed this century to stand a chance. End of the day I am sure no one wants to see Hugh throwing his money away but he needs to appreciate that no one will do so with theirs either. If its as simple as someone buying a nice wagon to go in their freight train then he has to compete with Bachmann (SPA or OBA anyone?) if his market is someone who specifically wants an SPA they they will be aware of the cambrian kit. Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Yes mickey Strange as it seems I don't have unlimited money to spend on my hobby, I am glad you do but best will in the world and a few people buying a model as a show of support isn't going to help Hugh get his money back. It's not life and death but knowing how much these things cost it might very well be hughs home that's on the line Do you realise this point? I don't think you do Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
(The) Youth Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Ill be buying one simply cos Hugh has stuck his head up and done it....... But how many others will if the product isn't right? The Cambrian model has a nice body but I struggled to get it to run like a modern RTR wagon. My only other drawback is that The springs are not will defined but it might be down to age of the tools. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 At the end of the day I'll happily buy Hughs SPA if its good enough but only a couple (it was always going to be so) Its better things are said now than after tools have been cut and product shipped surely? I currently have some cambrian ones OMBW as well as BAA's, BBA's and BDA's I know they are all (or will be soon) available RTR but the kits are bought. I cant afford to just bin them. Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Indeed so Mickey Not different standards as such, just a different approach. Perhaps its best Hugh steps in at this point. After all I am making an assumption he wants feedback. He might be perfectly happy to just do things his way. Perhaps you can clarify Hugh? Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Flynn Posted October 18, 2011 Author Share Posted October 18, 2011 Hi All Just to anwser a few points I have loads of photos,Scale Drawings and i did not go down brake gear after talking to a few friends of mine All said you cant see it and it would be daft as if you rewheeled it would want altering. No i did not go under a SPA as it had a loco attached and getting access under one is not as easy due to health and safety. Ben A has made a good few points which i agee with. back to the model if you have read it correctly My comment - I have found a few errors upon assembling that need sorting but i am getting closer.- I used the word ASSEMBLING My comment - thanks John please remember this is a resin model just to see how it fits and looks ,But i know there is several errors to address so i have made contact with cad designer who will put a few errors right next week. - I said there is errors and a few will be put right next week ,i did not say the all will be put right? My comment - With this resin it was terrible to build and it took 2 hours to build but it was mainly to see how the bits fitted yes a couple of tweeks still to do - Tweeks refer to the bits and pieces. Let me finish by saying i want to produce a model of a SPA to a standard at least equal to other manufactures finished at a fair price that can be taken out of the box and run? I have attached a cad drawing sorry its so small but hope you can see it has been drawn correctly? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 As ben A said........its RTR If i wanted to spend my time sticking bits of plastic rolling stock together I would do....As it is I dont so I wont I like the background, not the trains......there is summat about "locophiles etc" that makes my skin crawl... Which is why the hobby is interesting, because everybody gets something different out of it. For me an RTR wagon is just a posession, if I haven't put something into it, then I can't get emotionally attached to it, but I do enjoy researching wagons, so when I see something that is so clearly wrong it anoyes me. Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRDBLUE17 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Hi Hugh, I wish you well with this project and I hope the finished product does turn out to be very good. I recently bought an N-guage Spa and it is an incredible little model and I also have a pair of Cambrian models that I have built and painted for use on my layout - they are not perfect in any way and hand painted but they look good in my engineers rake and run well. I do compare these to my n-guage purchase and I am certainly one of those modellers who want one in OO which is just as good. The resin casting does not look good enough at this stage and I think it is worth looking at ensuring the body is refined so that it is crisp and accurate and as others have said with a good paint finish. Bachmann air brake wagons have some nice underframe equipment which look good from normal viewing angles which looks like you have tried to capture and this looks promising. I look forward to seeing your refinements as I want to see this model turn out well as I will be adding some to my fleet. all the best, Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Flynn Posted October 18, 2011 Author Share Posted October 18, 2011 Jon what bit is wrong so i can comment. Hugh Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Flynn Posted October 18, 2011 Author Share Posted October 18, 2011 Mark The resin test sample was delivered from China and i did not know what standard it would be delivered. There is a few bits missing a few broken but i built it to see how it went together.(struggled as all glues took ages to adhere) If you had it in your hand you would say its not as bad as photos make out. If i had all the bits and spent several hours with wet and dry i could have made it look better? Hugh Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyddrail Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Hugh, It was good to meet you at Peterborough. I forgot to mention you should look at the N gauge RTR SPA. A few weeks ago I was doing a modelling demo at Folkestone and built 5 Cambrian SPAs, on the Sunday my fellow demoer passed me his N gauge SPA, bloody hell it is good. It even has the cut outs in the floor for the ratchet straps to tie down loads. I would be happy to supply photos of the prototypes if of interest, I have many of the Balfour Beatty SPAs including detail shots. Cheers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Jon what bit is wrong so i can comment. Hugh Hugh, I hope these photo's will show some of the problem areas See my comments on the Dapot Turbot - a pet hate of mine - the doors are latched closed by a pin thats mounted to the end - except on yours the pin is mounted in thin air. On the prototype the very heavy plate type spring hanger (that I think relates to the brake loaded/empty) changeover valve is only on the inner end of the left hand wheel - the other end is a lighter fabrication, so it appears diagonally oposite, The spring hangars are symetrical on your wagon,. I'll accept that all of these photos were taken on a bright day, with very heavy shaddow, but you will notice the top rail of the solebar isn't visable on any of the photos - your boddy looks too thin, it dosn't seem to cover the chassis adequately - it also appears on yours that the sides are inside the ends, rather than overlapping them. I think your sheeting cleats are too far up the end. I'm not clear that the boil on your bufferbeam where the airpipe goes wouldn't be better left of entirely. You latest CAD appears to have a plate behind the buffers on the bufferbeam, as well as having the flange on the oleo. I'm assuming the buffers on your resin model are nothing like those that will be used. from slightly further round you can see that the uprights on the doors are slightly thicker than the top rail, they have a chamfer to bring them under that rail. I think this photo also shows how far out the rolle rbearing should protrude beyond the spring - your bearing looks nothing like the prototype, nor is it beefy enough. The treatment of the removable door posts is very heavy handed, these are only thin sheet, not milled from solid billet. you can only just see a witness mark in this photo - I had to circle it so it's obvious - I don't have a clearer SPA photo, but have Rudd examples. Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Flynn Posted October 18, 2011 Author Share Posted October 18, 2011 Hi Jon I have attached better cad drawings for you to look at. I have had the inner plates thinned on model as they came out to heavy The wheel bearing housings have been stretched to look better(if you look at sample the spring units are bent badly outwards) The corners do look better on cad as will be produced. The end unit slops will be on model as cad Phew and i thought you were going to say buffers as they are only end stems pushed in (yes bits missing) Hope i have given you a bit better confidence i am addressing issues? Hugh Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Mark The resin test sample was delivered from China and i did not know what standard it would be delivered. There is a few bits missing a few broken but i built it to see how it went together.(struggled as all glues took ages to adhere) If you had it in your hand you would say its not as bad as photos make out. If i had all the bits and spent several hours with wet and dry i could have made it look better? Hugh Its not th finish thats the problem for me, but where the componebts are in relation to each other, and their broad shape. I totally get the resolution of your rapid prototype isn't hign enough to give a good cosmetic finish - that isn't the issue. Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 The wheel bearing housings have been stretched to look better(if you look at sample the spring units are bent badly outwards) I'm not sure I understand? Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Flynn Posted October 18, 2011 Author Share Posted October 18, 2011 Jon i have attached photo to look at. Hugh Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Can't you leave a small gap between the roller bearing and spring rather than try to flatten the roller bearing? You seem to have had to compensate by making the axleguard massively thick too. I guess people could stick white metal roller bearing on the front but but it does seem a bit odd. Its not a recess on the prototype btw but a hole all the way through, the axleguard stay would be removed and then the axle plus axleboxes would be able to drop out of the bottom. You could do with modelling the slightly raised stay and bolts too actually. Is the bottom of the solebar completely missing on the CAD? It seems to be missing on the resin with the suspension components attaching to nothing? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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