Lime Street Station

[LMS2968]

9 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

2014 was yellow, I agree. BR had a campaign change from Red/Green to Red/Yellow in (I think) mid 80s.  Prior to that it was Green up to buffer stops at a terminal stations (with a few specific exceptions to that general rule). My interest is whether anyone knows for certain that the LMS were different to BR pre 1980 rules.    Needs someone with very old colour photos or an old diagram!

Paul.

Sorry, this is the best I can do: B&W doesn't move us on very much.

 

Edited September 26, 2019 by LMS2968

[5BarVT]

That looks very much like an opening notice for Lime St frame. I had wondered if that might help but also concluded probably not as only the red aspects are highlighted.  The two aspect signals in all the platforms are red/green but as you say b/w prints don’t help.

Many thanks for posting the plan, it is for an older layout than anything I have.  I hope you don’t mind me copying for future reference.

Paul.

Edited September 26, 2019 by 5BarVT
Auto uncorrect, grumble, grumble!

[LMS2968]

Feel free, mate. Glad to be of use!

 

This is the plan post electrification as you're in a later period.

 

[MarkC]

What happened to the turntable? Does anyone know please?

 

Mark

[LMS2968]

I assume it was cut up on site, as with most others.

 

I believe It was last used on 23 June 1968 to turn 8F 8033 prior to working 1T85 LCGB's 'The Two Cities Limited' railtour. I was on the train and watched it turn.

 

[jamie92208]

12 minutes ago, LMS2968 said:

I assume it was cut up on site, as with most others.

 

I believe It was last used on 23 June 1968 to turn 8F 8033 prior to working 1T85 LCGB's 'The Two Cities Limited' railtour. I was on the train and watched it turn.

 

Was the loco that brought the 15 guinea special in in  August 68 before it was dispatched back to Lostock Hall. I think it was 45110 but can't be sure.

 

Jamie

[Steve Hewitt]

2 hours ago, LMS2968 said:

I assume it was cut up on site, as with most others.

 

I believe It was last used on 23 June 1968 to turn 8F 8033 prior to working 1T85 LCGB's 'The Two Cities Limited' railtour. I was on the train and watched it turn.

 

 

 

I have heard a story about its use following electrification:

 

If an electric loco sustained damage to its windscreen on a trip to Euston, it would not be repaired there as it should have been, but it was sent back to Liverpool, with the damage at the trailing end.

To return the favour, the loco was turned at Lime Street and sent back to Euston, who not having any turntable were then obliged to undertake the repair.

 

Fact or fable?????

 

Steve.

 

[Steve Hewitt]

3 hours ago, MarkC said:

What happened to the turntable? Does anyone know please?

 

Mark

Hi Mark,

 

I can't help with info. on the disposal of the 60ft turntable, but I can explain a little of the history of turntables at Lime Street.

 

The period of our model is 1947, just before Nationalisation.

We therefore have the smaller turntable which had replaced the early LNWR turntable formerly located to the north of platform 1 where two short sidings now exist.

 

Very soon after Nationalisation the Lime Street Power Box was introduced along with extensions to some platforms etc.

This has just been decommissioned in the recent upgrades. 

The platform extensions had required the demolition of the manual box, which is on our model.

The Power Box is/was built partly on the site of "our" turntable.

This in turn was replaced by the 60ft table shown previously.

We will be modelling the early ground work for the new table on our model.

 

Hope that helps a little.

 

Steve.

[MarkC]

10 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

Was the loco that brought the 15 guinea special in in  August 68 before it was dispatched back to Lostock Hall. I think it was 45110 but can't be sure.

 

Jamie

It was indeed 45110, Jamie.

 

Mark

[LMS2968]

10 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

Was the loco that brought the 15 guinea special in in  August 68 before it was dispatched back to Lostock Hall. I think it was 45110 but can't be sure.

 

Jamie

I don't know which way 5110 was facing when it arrived at Lime Street in the morning before working the train, but in the evening it came back up the cutting tender first and was stopped at Edge hill station No. 1 platform. I was there then as well! I assume it turned on the triangle  Picko Tunnel / Edge Lane / Olive Mount.

 

[MarkC]

8 hours ago, Steve Hewitt said:

 

I have heard a story about its use following electrification:

 

If an electric loco sustained damage to its windscreen on a trip to Euston, it would not be repaired there as it should have been, but it was sent back to Liverpool, with the damage at the trailing end.

To return the favour, the loco was turned at Lime Street and sent back to Euston, who not having any turntable were then obliged to undertake the repair.

 

Fact or fable?????

 

Steve.

 

No reason why this couldn't be true, Steve, as there was a Station Pilot which could do the shunt, usually an 08 or 09, at Lime Street until at least the mid-70s. (I spent a week of afternoons riding - and driving - it, and visiting the signal box, having initially got talking to the driver. It was a different way of life, back then...

 

Even if not true, it's a great story!

 

Mark

 

Edited September 27, 2019 by MarkC

[Simond]

I was on an up HST that suffered a cracked windscreen at speed south of York.  We proceeded to KGX at somewhat reduced speed, with an announcement by the guard to explain the delay.

 

at KGX the driver was getting out as I passed the power car, I asked if he was ok.  

 

“Yes, thanks, but I need new underpants”

[Simond]

More usefully, over a beer last evening, I asked a knowledgeable (and rather older) pal about the green/yellow aspect on the drop into Lime St.  

 

He said that he could well believe that it was common practice to use a yellow proceed aspect prior to a terminal road but didn’t know how common it was.  He drew a contrast with the resignalling at Euston which took place immediately before Nationalisation, in which a miniature distant arm was used to indicate a train already occupying the road into which a second train was signalled.  He believes that the home signals had green proceed aspects to differentiate from the yellow proceed with caution aspect given by the distant arm.

 

not conclusive, but of interest I hope

atb

Simon

[Bloodnok]

On 27/09/2019 at 15:34, Simond said:

More usefully, over a beer last evening, I asked a knowledgeable (and rather older) pal about the green/yellow aspect on the drop into Lime St.  

 

He said that he could well believe that it was common practice to use a yellow proceed aspect prior to a terminal road but didn’t know how common it was.  He drew a contrast with the resignalling at Euston which took place immediately before Nationalisation, in which a miniature distant arm was used to indicate a train already occupying the road into which a second train was signalled.  He believes that the home signals had green proceed aspects to differentiate from the yellow proceed with caution aspect given by the distant arm.

Southern practice was derived from prior semaphore behaviour, which was to clear the main arm for a clear platform (all the way to the buffers) and use a miniature arm for calling-on into a part-occupied platform. This was translated to a green aspect into an unoccupied terminal platform, and a yellow aspect for a part occupied platform when colour lights were installed. This was in what otherwise would have been 4 aspect territory at the time.

I'm not sure exactly when this got changed to be a yellow to an unoccupied platform with red + white call-on lights into a part-occupied platform -- but that change was certainly after nationalisation.

[Steve Hewitt]

On 25/09/2019 at 21:44, Steve Hewitt said:

WIGAN Exhibition,       5th & 6th October 2019.

I  regret to have to announce that due to ill health we will not be able to exhibit the layout at the upcoming Wigan exhibition.

 

Three of the Lime Street Crew will instead be demonstrating their skills (or lack of them)  as a small compensation.

Please come along for a chat and to ask any questions about the layout.

 

Steve

 

The "Lime Street Crew" will comprise Les, Rob and Myself, and we are exhibit no. 2 in the first Hall.

 

Please come along for a chat about anything "Lime Street", or anything else for that matter.

 

Steve.

[Steve Hewitt]

On 29/08/2019 at 15:18, Les Green said:

Finally the boiler house is installed on the layout.

 

 

A chimney has to smoke.....

 

John installed a conventional smoke unit in the top of the chimney, but it wasn't a great success and burnt itself out quite quickly.

Not one to be put off, he decided to build his own system of smoke generation, which he has done.

No pics at present, but it comprises heating coils from "Vaping" whatits and has fan assistance.

 

All very well, but the chimney is solid!

My job has been to make a working flue - should be easy to drill the chimney out, its only made of resin.

The problem is its size - at 320 mm or 13 inches.

 

I decided to drill it in my lathe - a Myford Super 7, but that was complicated by the fact that the chimney's diameter is greater than the bore of my lathe's spindle.

I also don't have any "long series" drills of 8mm diameter which would do the job.

 

Here's how I solved the problem:

 

To hold the chimney, I wrapped the lower section in masking tape to eliminate the taper, this gave the chuck something to get hold of.

 

I used a live centre in the tailstock to support it whilst tightening the chuck.

 

Having used a centre drill to get things started, I drilled out the top of the chimney very carefully in increasing sizes up to 8mm.

I had drilled as deep as the drills available would allow, but this was only less than a third of the total depth required.

 

 

To get deeper, I extended the drills be fixing them with super glue into close fitting brass tubes.

 

This gave me the following selection of drills:

 

I eventually reached the bottom of the chimney with the smallest drill. I was very pleased that the drilling had kept very true to the centre of the chimney, 

 

I now had a hole in steps from 8mm down to about 2mm

 

To open up the hole to the required 8mm, I used first a twist drill to get as far up as I could, and then used a "flat bit" from each end to complete the job.

I also had to drill the shorter square section base of the chimney, which was relatively easy, having received a self centring four jaw chuck from Father Christmas a few years ago.

 

To locate to two sections together, and locate the chimney in the baseboard, and the smoke generator, I used brass tube.

 

 

The 5/16" tube aligns the chimney on its base, and the 11/32 tube into which the chimney is a sliding fit, will be fixed in the baseboard and into the smoke unit,

The flange on the top of the 11/32" tube sets its height and requires a recess in the bottom of the chimney base.

 

So there we have it - a "solid" chimney hollowed out and ready for painting and installation on the layout.

 

Steve.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 28, 2019 by Steve Hewitt
Missing photo.

[Jack374]

Superb work Steve, very neat solution for the problem of drilling a 13" hole.

 

Jack.

[Les Green]

You should have been a prostate surgeon!!

 

[Tony Teague]

8 hours ago, Les Green said:

You should have been a prostate surgeon!!

 

 

I think the phrase is 'OMG' !

The images this conjures up are appalling.

 

[Simond]

Yes, quite put me off my lunch...

 

Simon

[Steve Hewitt]

A Testing Time or Smoke Without fire..........

 

Last Thursday I was able to take the chimney to John's for a trail installation prior to it going to Rob for painting.

 

This is the Smoke generator John has made.

It has a "Vaping" heating element to boil the Smoke Oil, and a Fan to assist the draughting up the chimney.

 

The larger of the two brass tubes I made locates the chimney on the baseboard, and the smoke unit on its shelf below.

 

The smaller diameter tube is fixed into the base of the chimney, and slides into the larger tube. 

 

The chimney is then fixed onto the base, with the tube giving accurate location and strength to the join.

It me and the camera leaning, not the chimney.

 

From the viewing side of the layout, we can see the first "test firing"

 

We are left with two concerns.

 

1. The smoke isn't very visible and requires a deflector of some kind in the top of the chimney to break down the very smooth flow of the smoke.

2. There is the question "where does all the OILY smoke go?"  We don't want it falling all over the station rook, and or the trackwork!

 

John is investigating alternative smoke generation methods, and we'll try the Water Vapour type used in modern "electric fires" and room humidifiers.

These generate no heat, and create the water vapour by ultrasonic vibration.

 

We'll get there eventually, because we can!

 

Steve.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 3, 2019 by Steve Hewitt
Remove duplication.

[richard i]

Would dirty water give you a darker smoke? 

Richard 

[Simond]

Steve,

 

I’d have a similar concern about condensed oil spoiling the finish on your hard work.  Having used a vape element, would there be some mileage in getting the vape liquid too?  I don’t use them, but I understand that there are versions which include  glycerine which create the dense clouds of smoke that some users prefer. It may be possible to find out the recipe and make your own, or get a vape fluid that doesn’t contain nicotine (you could smell when it’s on, though!)

 

I suspect that the key reason why the smoke plume comes out non-turbulent is the fan - try pulsing it, or indeed, after starting up, is the heat of the smoke not enough to lift it without the fan?

 

hth

Simon

[Siberian Snooper]

Another solution may be to try fitting a baffle plate near the top of the chimney, to disrupt the airflow.

 

 

[Buhar]

100% vegetable glycerine vape liquid (available without any nicotine) will produce a denser "smoke" but this stuff does tend to shorten the life of the heating element.  Chimneys tended to produce a steady flow of smoke, it's getting it visible and maybe going off at an angle (this is Liverpool, there is wind) that may help it to be convincing.