Lime Street Station

[richard.h]

The chimney build is excellent, it will be interesting to see how the smoke effect works out.

 

I bought a smoke unit and oil to fit somewhere near the engine shed and then never used it as I was worried that the residue might mess up the locos and track

[Armchair Modeller]

Saw a chimney using steam generated from an old kettle yesterday. Water boiled to steam. Not as good as black, billowing smoke but environmentally friendly.

[Tony Teague]

Steve

 

Have you considered using dry ice as used with disco lighting and by photographers - no oily residue.

 

Tony

[Steve Hewitt]

1 hour ago, Tony Teague said:

Steve

 

Have you considered using dry ice as used with disco lighting and by photographers - no oily residue.

 

Tony

 

Thanks Tony.

 

In a word, "no".

 

Not sure whats involved in obtaining, storing, transporting and using it.

 

Steve.

 

 

[beast66606]

On 26/09/2019 at 09:21, LMS2968 said:

Sorry, this is the best I can do: B&W doesn't move us on very much.

 

 

Nipping back to this discussion as I'm just catching up.

 

Prior to ca 1980 the down home signals all showed green to the stops, I can clearly remember (frequently) hanging out of the window of a down train and seeing greens all the way down the cutting, I used to do this as the Merseyrail service was half hourly and I was always hoping for a clear run so I could get down the subway and catch the train. Around 1980 the last signal was changed to only show yellow and the platform routing was moved back to the down home 2 signals, the down home 3 signals - show on the plan above - were removed.

 

I suspect the LMS signal also showed green but can't be 100%

Edited November 3, 2019 by beast66606
Added Merseyrail bit

[beast66606]

On 26/09/2019 at 23:10, Steve Hewitt said:

 

I have heard a story about its use following electrification:

 

If an electric loco sustained damage to its windscreen on a trip to Euston, it would not be repaired there as it should have been, but it was sent back to Liverpool, with the damage at the trailing end.

To return the favour, the loco was turned at Lime Street and sent back to Euston, who not having any turntable were then obliged to undertake the repair.

 

Fact or fable?????

 

Steve.

 

 

The turntable was still used into the later 1970s, as a siding - somewhere I have a photo ( one  of mine) of an electric loco on it.

[TheSignalEngineer]

12 hours ago, Tony Teague said:

Steve

 

Have you considered using dry ice as used with disco lighting and by photographers - no oily residue.

 

Tony

 

10 hours ago, Steve Hewitt said:

 

Thanks Tony.

 

In a word, "no".

 

Not sure whats involved in obtaining, storing, transporting and using it.

 

Steve.

 

 

I saw a layout try that a while ago. All they got was a thick fog at track level as the mist they generated was heavier than air. As it cleared the turntable pit took on the appearance of a frozen pond on a January morning.

[Tony Teague]

1 hour ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

 

I saw a layout try that a while ago. All they got was a thick fog at track level as the mist they generated was heavier than air. As it cleared the turntable pit took on the appearance of a frozen pond on a January morning.

 

Hmmm, I think you are probably right!

Perhaps have a look at this alternative:

 

 

Tony

 

[Denbridge]

11 hours ago, Steve Hewitt said:

 

Thanks Tony.

 

In a word, "no".

 

Not sure whats involved in obtaining, storing, transporting and using it.

 

Steve.

 

 

Trust me, having used it professionally,  the hassles of buying, storing and moving it are definitely not worth it.

[LMS2968]

I hate to be the only pickled onion in the fruit salad, but I have to ask if this boiler house and chimney existed in real life? There was certainly a chimney, but photos and a drawing show it to be inside Cope's complex and mostly hidden behind other buildings. Or is this a little artistic licence?

 

[wcrpaul]

Smoke units:  I find scenery contamination happens mostly when the unit "pops" due to being over-filled, ejecting a small amount of distillate.   

 

My approach to my 16mm NG exhibit railway worker's cottage was to use the ubiquitous Seuthe unit, working at 15v AC draughted by a silent PC fan in a partially enclosed box right at the very base of the chimney stack (as distinct from installing the unit in the pot).  The smoke exits up an approx 5 inch long tube within the chimney to the pot.   The theory being that at least some of the distillate condensing on its way up the tube has a chance to drip back down to the base rather than being ejected from the top.     I use a syringe with a 5 inch brass tube needle extension to make sure each refill goes right into the Seuthe unit.    I operate out at the front of the layout (radio control) and always like to have some audience participation.    The Seuthe unit is not left generating smoke all the time, although the PC fan does run constantly.   Instead, there is a momentary button on the front on the layout that visitors can press to apply the 15v AC to the unit.   That way, you are only producing smoke for visitors who want to see it.   5 secs press of the button ejects an impressive smoke display draughted though the chimney pot as if the cottage fire has just been lit  (...by the pixies.....well the kids love  it anyway.)

 

[wcrpaul]

Meant also to mention... and with apologies if already noted in this thread... when considering alternative smoke generating solutions there might be need to consider increased likelihood of there being asthmatics in your audience.

[TheSignalEngineer]

6 minutes ago, wcrpaul said:

Meant also to mention... and with apologies if already noted in this thread... when considering alternative smoke generating solutions there might be need to consider increased likelihood of there being asthmatics in your audience.

Or setting off the venue fire alarms

[lambiedg]

As a retired employee of a industrial gas company I know that sourcing solid CO2 would be difficult as the industry is not at all keen on supplying private individuals following some wholly inappropriate uses. 
Storage and use probably make more trouble than its worth anyway.

 

David

[Steve Hewitt]

Sorry its been a bit quiet on here for a month or so.......

 

First, LMS2968, you are correct about the "Artistic Licence", but not sure its just "a little".

 

Following our late but unavoidable withdrawal from the Wigan show, I'm pleased to report that John has been back in the "Shed" and is continuing his "elephant task" of detailing the trackwork.

This involves adding Chair detail, Point Rodding and Ballasting.

 

This photo shows part of the Station Throat trackwork as it has been since Chris first laid it many years ago.

It is constructed with rivets through the sleepers to which the rail is soldered.

 

First John has to grind away the sides of each rivet to give space for cosmetic "half chairs" to be fixed.

The white line is a guide for the Point Rodding, which will be constructed before Ballasting is done.

It has to be removed in sections for Ballasting to done and painted, and then re-installed.

 

Because the track is all "bi-directional" alternate chairs have to be fixed with the wooden wedge in opposite directions.

Cosmetic Fishplates are also fixed in place.

 

As you can imagine, a very time consuming process, but one you'll see the benefit of when we take the layout to Bristol next year..........

 

Steve.

 

 

[Simond]

Steve, 

 

this is obviously a huge task.  I’m interested by the rationale of your (team’s) decision to go with rivets to start with.  Was this due to availability of parts, strength, or some other driver?

 

Would moulded styrene chairs on ply sleepers not have killed two birds with one stone?

 

atb

Simon

[JeffP]

What a shame that the cosmetic chairs couldn't have been made with an indentation underneath to sit level over a rivet?

[jacko]

On 07/12/2019 at 22:13, Steve Hewitt said:

 

Because the track is all "bi-directional" alternate chairs have to be fixed with the wooden wedge in opposite directions.

Cosmetic Fishplates are also fixed in place.

 

Steve.

 

 

 

There's 'attention to detail' then there's ATTENTION TO DETAIL.   

[hayfield]

On 07/12/2019 at 22:13, Steve Hewitt said:

Sorry its been a bit quiet on here for a month or so.......

 

First, LMS2968, you are correct about the "Artistic Licence", but not sure its just "a little".

 

Following our late but unavoidable withdrawal from the Wigan show, I'm pleased to report that John has been back in the "Shed" and is continuing his "elephant task" of detailing the trackwork.

This involves adding Chair detail, Point Rodding and Ballasting.

 

This photo shows part of the Station Throat trackwork as it has been since Chris first laid it many years ago.

It is constructed with rivets through the sleepers to which the rail is soldered.

 

First John has to grind away the sides of each rivet to give space for cosmetic "half chairs" to be fixed.

The white line is a guide for the Point Rodding, which will be constructed before Ballasting is done.

It has to be removed in sections for Ballasting to done and painted, and then re-installed.

 

Because the track is all "bi-directional" alternate chairs have to be fixed with the wooden wedge in opposite directions.

Cosmetic Fishplates are also fixed in place.

 

As you can imagine, a very time consuming process, but one you'll see the benefit of when we take the layout to Bristol next year..........

 

Steve.

 

 

 

Steve

 

Hello and ever since I had the pleasure of both seeing the layout and speaking with most of the team members at the Watford Finescale show (quite a few years ago) I have enjoyed seeing the progress you all have made with the layout

 

Regarding the cosmetic chairs, I was told by some club members (previous club) who model in P4 that the C&L chairs were designed to fit over the rivets (they have a hole in the base), certainly with the P4 layout the club had to replace the odd one which had come off new chairs were just cut in half and stuck on. I see that rivets can be bought in 1.5 mm & 2 mm head diameter is it this which causes the issue and or the reduced EM track gauge causing a slight offset on the heads?

 

I also was very impressed with the method used in moving the switch blades, which is clearly visible in photo 1

 

Lime Street and Pendon are the yard sticks I judge other layouts by, 

[Dave Holt]

Don't know about different rivet head diameters, but I found on my P4 pointwork (constructed by someone else), I had to grind away all of the exposed rivet heads to get the (Exactoscale) chair haves to fit snugly up against the rail.

Dave.

[Steve Hewitt]

 

More on the detailing of the trackwork..............

 

I've quoted below a post from 2013 which explains how John prepares and fits the C&L chairs to the track.

The track was originally built about 2003, before the C&L method was available - certainly in "4-bolt"  LMS design.

(Couldn't possibly have used "3-bolt" GWR chairs, which were the first style available.)

 

 

On 27/12/2013 at 19:54, Steve Hewitt said:

It's not all sitting around drinking tea.....

 

I called on John today to drop off the buffers.

He showed me the work he's been doing (and still has to do!)

 

This shot shows the extent of the track detailing he's going to tackle before we put up the other boards.

The brown colour of the unpainted chairs shows what he's completed.

 

 

Simple enough?

Here's How...

 

John explained:

These pictures show the process for using the C&L chairs as cosmetic chairs on track built using the rivet and ply method, rather than building the track with these chairs.

(Lime St. track was already well advanced when the C&L track system was first marketed).

 

1) A standard chair as broken off the sprue.

Each sprue has 10 chairs moulded on, 5 L/handed, and 5 R/handed.

 

2) The chair has been cut in two close to the part of the chair that butts up to the outside of the rail. (Side with the key).

 

3) The chair has now been cut in three. ( Cutting away the centre section that would normally go under the rail).

 

 

The two outer parts are now fitted to each side of the running rails, glued in position using Butanone to fix them.

 

4) A pile of chairs, they still have to have the centre sections cut away.

There's a box with another few hundred sprues in stock.

 

Other bits of trivia !!

 

The outside chairs (The halves with the keys), are fitted so as to alternate left and right on bi-directional track as seen on the attached pictures, but on uni-directional track they are all fitted in the opposite direction to that the trains travel in. The reason for that is that the vibration of a train travelling along the track as the train moves along is supposed to tighten the keys in their chairs rather than loosen them. (That's what I was told anyway!)

Where rails converge chairs are partly cut away to allow them to fit between rails, and in some cases they are bonded together to represent cast double chairs.

 

I have gone through at least two thousand chairs so far with still a great deal to do. And that is all before we even think about ballasting point rodding and barrow ways.

 

Hope the above is of use,

 

Cheers,

 

John.

 

This is the result:

This is "Chaired" track.

 

And with Fishplates added.

 

 

Then there's the point rodding, ballasting, barrow crossings .......

 

Steve.

 

This is a subject to which John returns whenever there is a period where the layout is partly dismantled. Close access is necessary for this fine work.

 

Steve.

[Steve Hewitt]

2 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

Steve

 

Hello and ever since I had the pleasure of both seeing the layout and speaking with most of the team members at the Watford Finescale show (quite a few years ago) I have enjoyed seeing the progress you all have made with the layout

 

Regarding the cosmetic chairs, I was told by some club members (previous club) who model in P4 that the C&L chairs were designed to fit over the rivets (they have a hole in the base), certainly with the P4 layout the club had to replace the odd one which had come off new chairs were just cut in half and stuck on. I see that rivets can be bought in 1.5 mm & 2 mm head diameter is it this which causes the issue and or the reduced EM track gauge causing a slight offset on the heads?

 

I also was very impressed with the method used in moving the switch blades, which is clearly visible in photo 1

 

Lime Street and Pendon are the yard sticks I judge other layouts by, 

 

Praise indeed, mentioned alongside Pendon.

 

Steve.

[Les Green]

The Lamp Store fresh off the 3D printer. This will located on the front of the layout adjacent to the turntable.

 

 

And painted ready for the weathering stage.

 

[Les Green]

See Lime Street Station in the January 2020 issue of Model Rail. On the shelves now!

[Steve Hewitt]

A brief update......

 

With the layout not operational at present, John has been concentrating on some fine detailing of the trackwork which is normally out of reach when the layout is fully assembled. The process has been described in detail earlier, but these pictures show the latest progress:

 

 

As can be seen, the point rodding has only yet been "marked out", so that will have to come later, along with ballasting, barrow crossings etc.

 

Very shortly, this base board will be exchanged for another on the workbench, after which it will be time to re-assemble the whole layout for operator training prior to our visit to the Bristol Exhibition in May.

 

Two of the Lime Street crew will be demo-ing at the Preston Show next weekend - Les Green and myself.

We'll be happy to discuss anything "Lime Street" related (or almost anything else), so do come and have a chat.

 

Hope to see many of you there........

 

Steve.