Kernow Adams O2

[Graham_Muz]

12 minutes ago, Jim104 said:

So when  and who changed 'Headcodes' - the name for over 50 years.... to headsignals...lol.......

 

The Southern Railway and the Southern Region  has always officially called them Engine Heasdsignals as per their documentation and rule book.

 

The Engine Headsignals could be discs or lamps during the day but had to be lamps during the hours of darkness. 

 

The terms 'headcode discs' or 'route discs' whilst used by many modellers is not correct or used within SR documentation. 

 

Headcodes were used on EMUs. 

Edited August 6, 2021 by Graham_Muz

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, Jim104 said:

So when  and who changed 'Headcodes' - the name for over 50 years.... to headsignals...lol.......

Nobody.  On the GWR/WR until October 1960 they were 'head lamps'.  In the BR General Appendix from October 1960 applicable to all Regions unless they published their own separate Instructions (as did the WR and obviously the SR) they were 'the Standard Code of Head Lamps and Discs'.

 

The WR changed the title from October 1960 to 'Standard Classification of Trains and Code of Head Lamps and Discs' while the other Regions followed suit in 1969 (but had used the system originally introduced by the WR before) that was continued in the 1972 General appendix.  The Southern  continued to use its earlier system for engines which only had discs and also retained its own 2 character system for locos and trains which could show them.   I think the term headcode was used by the SR (Region) for the 2 character alpha codes displayed on the front of trains.  The term headcode has been used elsewhere of 4 character train classification/route indicators.  

 

As far as lamping and discs are concerned some railway somewhere might well at some time or other have referred to them as a head code but far more likely they were referred to as a code of head lamps or, very commonly in everyday railway vernacular, as 'head lamp code'.  But never in my experience as 'headcode' although that term has long been commonly used to describe the 4 character train classification and route etc display or number and no doubtr older 2 (alpha) character route code displays 

[Jim104]

Thanks 'Stationmaster' for your input, I think the term Head Signals must therefore be an old Southern Railway outdated term as I cannot find it in any documents that are BR Southern Region. I, like many on here grew up in the 50's, I was very lucky to have some good friends who were locomen at Nine Elms and Feltham mpd's  in all my conversations with them about this subject  they always referred to the 'changing the headcode' displayed on the front of the engine because in the steam era it identified the route that the loco or train was taking.

The 1950s rulebook (see image )  Rule 119 only uses the terms headlamps and disc.

Again like so many others on here, we all purchased the Ian Allan publications of the day, images below.... which all use the terminology 'Headcodes'.

[Graham_Muz]

Regardless of what might be published by Ian Allan for enthusiasts, or colloquially used, the official term used on the SR was Engine Head Signals ( I agree that the train classification use of lamps were head codes, but we are discussing the Southern Railway).  below is the Southern Railway  ‘Engine Head Signals’ Instructions from 1st January 1944 issued by the Superintendent of Operation. 

Edited August 7, 2021 by Graham_Muz

[St Enodoc]

16 minutes ago, Graham_Muz said:

Regardless of what might be published by Ian Allan for enthusiasts, below is the Southern Railway  ‘Engine Head Signals’ Instructions from 1st January 1944 issued by the Superintendent of Operation. 

Interesting to see that the instruction emanated from the Deepdene Hotel, which was of course the SR's wartime HQ. The LMS also moved its HQ out of London to The Grove at Watford, which later became a BR management training establishment.

[Oldddudders]

46 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Interesting to see that the instruction emanated from the Deepdene Hotel, which was of course the SR's wartime HQ. The LMS also moved its HQ out of London to The Grove at Watford, which later became a BR management training establishment.

I cleaned the windows at Deepdene House in its last days, in my final year at skool, 1966. Only a few years earlier, it was an every weekday sight to see two London Transport RT buses heading up Deepdene Avenue packed to the gunwales with staff who had arrived by train at Dorking North. By the mid-60s most had been transferred to Southern House, Croydon, latterly known as the Network Technical Centre. 

 

I will not be detailing my adventures as an occasional lecturer at The Grove in the early '90s......

[PaulRhB]

7 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

will not be detailing my adventures as an occasional lecturer at The Grove in the early '90s......

Boo!  I used to enjoy ‘war stories’ from Gordon Farley who taught me Signalling, I’m sure there’s some fun to be had with yours  

[St Enodoc]

1 minute ago, PaulRhB said:

Boo!  I used to enjoy ‘war stories’ from Gordon Farley who taught me Signalling, I’m sure there’s some fun to be had with yours  

If only you knew! (I do, but I'm not telling).

[The Stationmaster]

Using only the sources I have immediately to hand -

 

BR - Head Lamps (1960 General Appendix, change as noted previously for 1969

GWR - Head Lamps (General Appendix 1920 and  1936, and Regional Appendix 1960,; change as noted previously for 1960

LMS - Head lamps and Discs (Sectional Appendix 1937 so would be the same in the General Appendix

S&D Jt - Head Lamps  (Appendix to the WTT 1933 and Supplement dated May 1945)

LMS - Head Lamps (Instructions for the Working of Rail Motors and Auto Trains 1946) -So post dates the LMS presence at The Grove (but pre-dates my appearance there by decades!)

BR ER, LT&S  - Headlights (LT&S Sectional Appendix 1960 )

Midland Railway - Head Lamps (General Appendix 1911 )

And no, I haven't got any Souther Railway documents which would contain this reference. 

 

I also have an LNER Supplement from 1924 which I can't currently lay hands on but I think it too says  Head Lamps

 

So in my view from what I have immediately to hand, plus an extract of an RCH minute from just after the Great War it appears that the generally used term was 'Head Lamps' for as long as they lasted on the British railway network and that the SR had its own description plus I suspect something different might have been used on the Caledonian.  The MR 1911 GA lists umpteen pages of variations but they are all listed under Head Lamps although some are very definitely route specific and involve 'targets' (various).

 

When it comes to correct terminology and usage I pay as little attention as possible to secondary sources however erudite they might appear to be on the surface and 'shorthand' descriptions vcan arise in everyday use of  courd se plus there is a horrible tendency to misdescribe things in captions in books. 

[The Stationmaster]

32 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

I cleaned the windows at Deepdene House in its last days, in my final year at skool, 1966. Only a few years earlier, it was an every weekday sight to see two London Transport RT buses heading up Deepdene Avenue packed to the gunwales with staff who had arrived by train at Dorking North. By the mid-60s most had been transferred to Southern House, Croydon, latterly known as the Network Technical Centre. 

 

I will not be detailing my adventures as an occasional lecturer at The Grove in the early '90s......

Derby School of Transport was far better for extramural entertainment with the evening excursions to Ripley    Derby also had an excellent snooker table which I made considerable use of during a 4 week long Rules & Regs course.  While the best Webb House at Crewe could manage was a quiz night at a nearby pub until teams from Webb house were banned because they always won.  Although I do know of one course member from Swindon, on a course I was lecturing at, who cunningly 'recruited' a lady from Crewe on the same course to the extent that she subsequently got a move in the grade to Swindon and made it all legal (actually I think she recruited him rather than the other way round  ).

[Graham_Muz]

For further clarity, as far as the Southern Railway was concerned headlamp(s) or Disc(s) were used (and such terminology is consistent across all rule books and other railways) to show an Engine Head Signal. Simples.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Graham_Muz

[Oldddudders]

39 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Derby School of Transport was far better for extramural entertainment with the evening excursions to Ripley   

Wasn't the Ripley pub called the Cock? I never went, but recall a coach-party returning well-oiled, and one clown running into the college naked - streaking was a thing at that time.

 

As for Paul's ref to Gordon Farley, he was on the 1975 SM's course with me at Folkestone. Not everyone chose to follow that career path after the course. At the time the TV Two Ronnies had a character called Charlie Farley, so Gordon was thus christened. The senior student on that course had formerly been a relief SM on the SE, but had gained promotion to an MS1 resident job on the SW. The SE didn't much miss him, and clearly the SW weren't over-impressed to have sent him on a course for newcomers!

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Wasn't the Ripley pub called the Cock? I never went, but recall a coach-party returning well-oiled, and one clown running into the college naked - streaking was a thing at that time.

 

As for Paul's ref to Gordon Farley, he was on the 1975 SM's course with me at Folkestone. Not everyone chose to follow that career path after the course. At the time the TV Two Ronnies had a character called Charlie Farley, so Gordon was thus christened. The senior student on that course had formerly been a relief SM on the SE, but had gained promotion to an MS1 resident job on the SW. The SE didn't much miss him, and clearly the SW weren't over-impressed to have sent him on a course for newcomers!

Yes, the pub at Ripley was actually called the 'Cock Inn' and perhaps with somebody's tongue buried deeply in their cheek it had strippers performing on a midweek night (Wednesday I think) hence you can guess which night the various courses at Derby booked their transport for   (Apparently is called 'The Old Cock Inn' nowadays according to its entry on the 'net

[Steamport Southport]

6 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Yes, the pub at Ripley was actually called the 'Cock Inn' and perhaps with somebody's tongue buried deeply in their cheek it had strippers performing on a midweek night (Wednesday I think) hence you can guess which night the various courses at Derby booked their transport for   (Apparently is called 'The Old Cock Inn' nowadays according to its entry on the 'net

 

Left Old Cock Inn.

 

That's from Carry On Loving I think. Where Charles Hawtrey is playing a detective following Sid James.

 

Also used as the pub name in Carry On Dick.

[Oldddudders]

10 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Left Old Cock Inn.

 

That's from Carry On Loving I think. Where Charles Hawtrey is playing a detective following Sid James.

 

Also used as the pub name in Carry On Dick.

Not to be confused with The Half-Way Inn, aka The Frustrated Virgin. 

[Tim Dubya]

On 07/08/2021 at 22:36, Steamport Southport said:

 

Left Old Cock Inn.

 

That's from Carry On Loving I think. Where Charles Hawtrey is playing a detective following Sid James.

 

Also used as the pub name in Carry On Dick.

 

You should go on mastermind 

[Steamport Southport]

6 hours ago, Tim Dubya said:

 

You should go on mastermind 

 

I can't remember anything important though.  

 

I just have a strange ability to remember old films and TV especially British comedy, horror, spaghetti westerns, Bond and other classic spy films, war movies, etc. Mainly by watching them quite frequently.

 

Don't really bother with modern stuff and rarely watch normal TV. I even listen to old comedy on BBC Radio Four Extra such as Hancock and The Navy Lark which were well before my time. Most modern comedy is rubbish IMHO.

 

 

[DanInHisDen]

Are there any djm O2s still availible?

[Graham_Muz]

7 minutes ago, DanInHisDen said:

Are there any djm O2s still availible?

 

None of the original KMRC O2s from either the first two batches are available, there are still the EFE SR Livery 182 version available https://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/65604/E85007-EFE-Rail-LSWR-Adams-O2-Steam-Locomotive-number-182 its the same KMRC owned tooling.

[BWsTrains]

On 08/10/2021 at 19:32, DanInHisDen said:

Are there any djm O2s still availible?

 I can't think why you can be asking that now with the EFE release, but I guess possibly on Ebay. (Note: Tongue firmly in cheek)

 

Then the new EFE which I bought recently (after requesting a thorough check for bodywork deformations and operation) arrived safely and is a fine model. So much so I'm thinking of adding sound. The Topic on RMWeb for the EFE is:

 

 

 

Edited March 19, 2022 by BWsTrains

[Ben Alder]

The subject of the geared drive and its effects arose on another thread so rather than clutter it up  I thought it was better here. I have removed one drive gear from mine with the loco being all the better for it, but someone raised the durability of the coupling rods. I seem to remember when the model came out that they were plastic, a fact that put me off doing anything to it for a long while, but when I bit the bullet I found that they were metal. Having stated this in reply another poster noted that his were plastic. Was this changed from the initial release or were they metal all along?

 

[BWsTrains]

5 hours ago, Ben Alder said:

The subject of the geared drive and its effects arose on another thread so rather than clutter it up  I thought it was better here. I have removed one drive gear from mine with the loco being all the better for it, but someone raised the durability of the coupling rods. I seem to remember when the model came out that they were plastic, a fact that put me off doing anything to it for a long while, but when I bit the bullet I found that they were metal. Having stated this in reply another poster noted that his were plastic. Was this changed from the initial release or were they metal all along?

 

Hi Ben,

 

I'm interested in what you've done as I have one myself, any specific issues or tips you can share, e.g which gear did you remove (may be naive question as I've not yet looked inside), any problems encountered.

 

Regards,

 

Colin 

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Ben Alder said:

.....Having stated this in reply another poster noted that his were plastic. Was this changed from the initial release or were they metal all along?

 

This made me think, I pre-ordered in 2013 so had two of the 1st batch, and was delivered to me in Dec 2015, so....., 'Ventnor' appears to have plastic, very bendy and sound plastic when tapped and 'Calbourne' appears to have metal, no flexing and sound metallic and is non-magnetic!  Very strange but nowt to worry about, just played trains for last 5+ yrs..

 

However as BW asks, which gear was removed, although may try one as don't fancy having body off.  Any performance increase would help as my layout had to be rebuilt last year down from 10 ft wide to 6 ft, and now running 600mm/2ft = 4.1 radius curve at one end, down from 1210mm/4ft 1" = probably 8th Radius equivalent, and the O2's slip with 4 cars, OK with 3, but could do 7 before.  Mind you my Hornby King slips to a halt pulling 8, and my Baccy 87XX can do 11 no probs, Baccy 94XX 15 easy.

 

Cheers

Edited October 10, 2021 by Guest
spelling

[BWsTrains]

10 hours ago, confused said:

'Ventnor' appears to have plastic, very bendy and sound plastic when tapped

 

AFAIR the gear driven design favoured by DJ also blighted operation of a good number of his 48xx, most notably when going downhill!. The Coupling rods were essentially cosmetic and necessarily loose fitting so that they didn't bind. You either drive by gear or coupling rod but not both, this then rationalising the use of plastic rods.

 

HOWEVER, that then begs the question, "if the rods weren't ever designed to drive, are they acceptable to transmit force when the 2nd gear is removed?

 

It would seem to be prudent to replace the rods with ones designed / intended for driving, don't Comet sell a sheet with all sorts of lengths?  

 

 

Edited October 10, 2021 by BWsTrains

[Ben Alder]

I removed the gear further from the motor. Easy enough if a bit fiddly due to the complex composition of its innards. It turned out to be a simple job, Although the rods flopped around in its original state they are behaving impeccably now- it's something I'm keeping an eye on. TBH, it isn't particularly hard worked but has been running like this for must be two years now.