N gauge quality issues - Farish & Dapol

[no1kato]

I have recently decided to change from American outline to British outline, using Farish and Dapol loco's. I am very dissapointed with the poor and patchy quality that I have found with these products. The loco's are 2 - steam and one diesel - a Farish04 diesel shunter - a Farish B1 and a Dapol Q1 - none of which run properly. The 04 diesel has been changed 4 times and both the "kettles" are about to be returned. I feel that I should not have to pay between £45 and £100 for a product that does not function as it is meant to. All my Kato loco's - 5 diesel and three steam have performed "straight out of the box" with no need for any tinkering or adjustment. One of the main problems seems to be current pickup. The Kato products use stub axle bearing pick up which seems a more positive method of transferring current to the motors.

I notice that Dapol's latest loco's are to be fitted with "positive current pick up" which I assume will be through the wheel bearings.

[Edwin_m]

The Farish class 150 also has pickup through the axle bearings, and I presume other very recent diesels do too. I agree most of my older Farish diesels need to be stripped down and have the pickups bent into shape every year or so. I don't have any Kato but my Tomix track cleaner needed a major rebuild because the springs feeding the power from the bogies lost their springiness. The Dapol class 67 uses a similar system but I've not heard of it having this problem.

[grahame]

Hi, I presume you're the same poster who raised the same issue on another forum recently. Basically you can end up with the odd lemon but in general most British N gauge runs acceptably well, but not all always as well as Kato which is often considered the best worldwide although even Kato have been known to produce the odd lemon. It does sound like you've been unlucky. However, you do need to follow a few 'rules';

 

Firstly, you do need to 'run-in' the models to get the best out of them and most of the Dapol ones also require oiling first. However, there can be issues for example such as poorly assembled pick up wipers as on some Farish models and some of the early Dapol Virgin Voyagers were suspect duds with some even having non-round wheels. Running in often helps remove enough of the chemical blackening, particularly with Farish locos, to improve electrical pick up as well as bedding the mechanics in.

 

Secondly, try and avoid anything built more than ten years ago (basically those made at Poole by Graham Farish) which are not the latest modern design (unless you have seen them running as they can be made to run well). I find that the latest models generally run very well straight out of the box and do improve with running-in. In fact most of my modern Farish and Dapol models run as well as the American N gauge locos I have - and CJM mechs are peerless.

 

Thirdly, in general you'll find that diesel locomotives run better than steamers although the latest models are significantly improved. Fourthly, as you're probably aware, track needs to be laid well and kept spotlessly clean. Also electrofrog points help with smooth running.

 

With regards to pick-ups the new Dapol diesels are fitted with pin-point axle cup contact pick-ups (like Kato and Atlas) although Farish still continue to use wheel back wipers which adds resistance and can easily loose contact. The Farish class 04 (and 08 and 14) are the three that suffer with poor assembly issues and often you'll find not all the pick-up wipers are making contact even before use. I understand that they are considering axle bush pick up to improve that aspect. That said the latest two bogie Farish diesels (for example 24, 37, 47 and Deltic) are all exceptional runners once run-in.

 

G.

[grahame]

The Farish class 150 also has pickup through the axle bearings,

 

Only the trailing bogie, the motor bogie still has wiper pick-ups IIRC.

 

G.

[Karhedron]

It is generally agreed that Farish and Dapol do not quite match the quality of Kato (although both are getting better). The problem is that the British market is much smaller which means smaller production runs and the R&D costs being spread over a smaller number of models. I suspect that they do not use much in the way of quality control in an effort to keep the costs down.

 

Having said that, 4 duds is extremely unlucky. The return rates at shops that stock N gauge are generally quoted as being around the 5% mark which is not significantly worse than 00. For you to get so many poor locos is definitely out of the ordinary.

 

The 04 (along with the 08, 14 and 3MT) has been noted to be vulnerable to poorly fitted/adjusted pickups. I am not familiar with the Q1 but I have not heard any reports of poor performance on the B1.

 

The best thing I can suggest is go to your local model shop and ask to see the locos running. Find a good example before you buy it to save hassle in the long run. While my local model shop is not quite as cheap as Hattons and the other big retailers, I usually buy my locos there as I can check them out before I purchase them.

[Dr Al]

- none of which run properly.

 

It's difficult to properly comment when specifics of the problems - what does this mean - are they dead, intermittent runners, noisy, slow, derailing, stalling etc???

 

As has been said often the initial assembly of the wiper contacts on Farish models isn't perfect. Sure, it shouldn't be this way, but by far the quickest and most time efficient way of getting going is simply to adjust them yourself. There's no guarantee the replacement will be any better - so why bother with the rigmarole? I know that many will decry such a comment - but from a practicality point of view on the few locos I've had issues with they've been sorted in 20 minutes and off and running, instead of waiting days and days to send back, receive a replacement and find it's no better. There are plenty on the lists that can give detailed pointers of how to go about this.

 

Once adjusted they should not give any further trouble. You may need to clean them very occasionally, but so long as you keep the track clean and no oil gets onto the wheel backs this should be rare, and part of routine maintenance. All the locos you describe can run exceptionally well, and certainly close to the performance of Kato that you're used to. The Dapol Q1 will be a bit fast out of the blocks - there is not that much you can do about this as the motor is a very high revving one. But with careful driving it can still run well.

 

I would also say the comment about avoiding older designs (Poole Farish) isn't true - on the whole these run very well also, with a superior quality motor than the newer locos (5 pole versus 3 pole can). They again can suffer assembly issues, but equally can run exceptionally well - certainly not far off Kato again (many will refute this, but to be frank they clearly don't know how to get the best from these designs... ) , albeit without the flywheel effect that the flywheels in Kato locos provide.

 

So don't give up! And if there are specific issues with specific locos more detail would help folk give useful advice !

 

Cheers,

Alan

[Weekday Cross]

My own experience wth Kato and other Japanese models is that diesel bogie locos run really well, but steam not so well - a bit like most people's experience of Farish and Dapol.

[Barry Ten]

Saw a comment on one of the American forums recently - a chap wasn't happy with his Kato locos because when he turned off the controller, they "kept going" for a bit - unlike his other locos which had "brakes" so that they stopped immediately.

[no1kato]

Many thanks for all your comments and advice - I will persist - and take your advice re pre view running before purchase and adjustment of wiper pickups - running in etc.

I have no problems with detail and paint finish on these loco's - they are excellent.

[no1kato]

Hello again everyone - have just picked up and run replacement Farish B1 - this replacement is as good as the other one was bad !!! Looks like we are on the way !!!

[Andy T]

Hi All

 

I also have running problems with Farish loco's mainly their class 66's whilst the Dapol ones run far better ( Don't know why!!!)

whilst the other week purchased a SNCF 22200 electric from Minitrix and must say that it runs better than anything i have in

my current loco stable.

[oldrailbug]

After many years of modelling American N Scale I have to say it is quite possible to buy a Kato, Atlas or Lifelike loco that does not run properly, one only has to read the reviews on the N Scale Encyclopedia to realise that duds are purchased regardless of brand.

 

Having said that I think the American market have a loud voice and will not tolerate to much rubbish, it has taken Bachmann over 30 years to get some of their old elcheapo models running properly and that has IMO been carried over the the later Farish models.

[Steven B]

No manufacturer is perfect but Kato (and CJM) do come close. They manage this through good design that means reliability is built in.

 

Bach-Far and Dapol are getting there though with the Farish "Blue Riband" and Dapol "Platinum" models. Yes they both still have problems - I've has quartering problems on the Q1, electrical pick-up issues on the Farish 04 and recently fixed a interim (old body, new chassis) class 37 which had a split gear.

 

The Poole era models are far from perfect but if you find one that's running well then it's worth having as most of the poor runners will be long gone.

 

The majority of the new models I take with me to my NGS area group meetings do get lots of positive comments from the American and German modelling members with many saying that if the quality had been that good 15 years ago they wouldn't have switched from British N. The Farish Black 5, prototype Deltic were particularly popular and watching a class 04 hauling 15+ Mk1s around the group layout was very satisfying to watch.

 

Don't give up. Find yourself a reputable dealer, spend a bit of time testing models in the shop and you wont be disapointed. British N Gauge is getting better and better. Personaly I think the newer models are as good, if not better than the likes of Atlas and Lifelike. The future's bright; The future's N Gauge!

 

Happy modelling.

 

Steven B.

[Linners]

I'd agree with that. I recently bought a BachFar 4MT (2-6-0) locomotive from my local retailer, and the driving wheels on the loco kept locking up. I noticed that somebody else on the forum had a similar issue, but I was reluctant to do anything other than lubricate the valve gear.Strangely enough I didn't ask for it to be test run and only discovered this when trying to run it in at home. However, I returned the loco and the dealer was happy to get me a replacement! This is my first issue with poor quality (I have 14 Farish locos), and hopefully my last!

 

Linners

[Flakmunky]

I am new to this hobby but I seem to have had issues with a couple of brand new Farish locos...

 

 

 

Now I may have been expecting too much but I didn't expect these issues straight out of the box:

 

 

37238 - lost power and made a screeching sound after a few weeks. Shop gave me a replacement whose forward headlight stopped working after a few months (tested, faulty pcb issue). Bought a new bodyshell (couldn't find the receipt) and all is good.

47404 - stalled over points due to gear housing being below rail level. Filed it down slightly. All is good.

47535 - Poor / erratic running. Had to strip it down and clean the pickups. Lots of oil everywhere... All is now good.

24035 - Worked well, then started to screech in one direction at moderate speed. Now stopped doing this so assuming grease has worked its way it to the gears properly!

 

 

In the interests of fairness, the Farish 08 and 108 I have run very smoothly and I have never had an issue with them. Touches wood.

 

 

 

Regards,

 

 

 

Tim

[Dr Al]

 

24035 - Worked well, then started to screech in one direction at moderate speed. Now stopped doing this so assuming grease has worked its way it to the gears properly!

 

 

Gears rarely screetch - that's a bearing - almost certainly one of the worm bearings, which are easy enough to oil if you pop the bogies off.

 

HTH,

Alan

[Flakmunky]

Thanks, will try that...

[MichaelB]

Hello all, I'm new to the forum but ,though I see I'm rather late, I would like to join with the initial question if I may? Of the four new Dapol's I've bought this year only one has worked at all, that's the 'Oliver Cromwell' Britannia. I've had two B17s both 'Barnsleys', one of which contrived to jump completely off the track, breaking on the floor, (invalidating my guarantee) the other just crawled and stuttered it's way through running in and if anything got slower and noisier. The latest failure is a B1 which died after running a couple of feet and then would not move at all. I've notified Dapol but received neither an acknowledgement nor response. In contrast, I've had only one minor problem with any of the half dozen or so new Farish models and nothing at all with the Union Mills ones bought this year. This isn't just a complaint though; really a hope for some reassurance as to whether it's worth continuing with Dapol at all. At the moment I confess to litttle confidence in their loco's and my worry is that Dapol will come out with a model I really want (instead of Farish doing so) but I won't feel able to chance buying it (if that makes sense). It's a great shame too, as their carriages and other rolling stock are such high quality.

[Dr Al]

Hello all, I'm new to the forum but ,though I see I'm rather late, I would like to join with the initial question if I may? Of the four new Dapol's I've bought this year only one has worked at all, that's the 'Oliver Cromwell' Britannia. I've had two B17s both 'Barnsleys', one of which contrived to jump completely off the track, breaking on the floor, (invalidating my guarantee) the other just crawled and stuttered it's way through running in and if anything got slower and noisier. The latest failure is a B1 which died after running a couple of feet and then would not move at all. I've notified Dapol but received neither an acknowledgement nor response. In contrast, I've had only one minor problem with any of the half dozen or so new Farish models and nothing at all with the Union Mills ones bought this year. This isn't just a complaint though; really a hope for some reassurance as to whether it's worth continuing with Dapol at all. At the moment I confess to litttle confidence in their loco's and my worry is that Dapol will come out with a model I really want (instead of Farish doing so) but I won't feel able to chance buying it (if that makes sense). It's a great shame too, as their carriages and other rolling stock are such high quality.

 

Your experience seems broadly similar to mine - Dapol being less reliable than Farish. Having said that the B17s I've got have always ran well once adjusted at first (one in particular had some horrible gunk from the wheel blackening process that made the wheels unconductive, and needed a lot of cleaning off).

 

Dapol have taken a while to converge on a common solution for locos and as such their most recent stuff is better - fewer design problems, and most issues really coming from quality control of assembly. Still needs improvement though!

 

I've persevered with Dapol given some awful experiences of their models. It's probably worth doing so, but try to buy from a reputable dealer so you can easily return the model if problems arise.

 

Regards,

Alan

 

P.s. Have PMed you regarding the B17s.

[MichaelB]

That does give me some hope, as a I do want the Middlesborough B17 when it comes out as I've already bought Carmine and Cream Gresleys for it; the B1 purchase was spur of the moment as they are so cheap from Hattons at the moment. Also I do want to buy the Hall when it does eventually come out and, again a suitable rake of carriages, the risk being that Dapol will have stopped making GWR carriages as soon as they produce a GWR loco, which seems to be their usual practice e.g for months producing several different LNER liveried B1s and B17s but no Teak carriages, making for extraordinary prices for the old ones on ebay; or for months producing carmine and cream Gresleys but only a late crest B17. I suppose I could wait until Farish bring out their A1 but, if their Ivatt 2MT is to go by then I could still be waitiing when my eyesight has forced me to move to Gauge 1.

 

I've replied separately re th B17s. Good luck

[grahame]

At the moment I confess to litttle confidence in their loco's and my worry is that Dapol will come out with a model I really want (instead of Farish doing so) but I won't feel able to chance buying it (if that makes sense). It's a great shame too, as their carriages and other rolling stock are such high quality.

 

In my experience, any Dapol issues are limited to steam outline models and are probably not significantly worse. The Dapol diesels by contrast are generaly as good, if not better than the Farish ones, where Farish have had a number of generic problems (such as splitting gears and poorly aligned pick-ups) which they have not yet fully resolved and have been replicated on a number of models.

 

G.

[Dr Al]

the B1 purchase was spur of the moment as they are so cheap from Hattons at the moment.

 

I think they are cheap because the Farish B1 is better!

 

Also I do want to buy the Hall when it does eventually come out

 

I would wait until there are some reports on running - otherwise you risk the "Dapol first release" woes...so often the first release is poorer that subsequent releases that have fixes to problems (e.g. 9Fs, Hymeks, 66s etc)

 

I suppose I could wait until Farish bring out their A1 but, if their Ivatt 2MT is to go by then I could still be waitiing when my eyesight has forced me to move to Gauge 1.

 

Farish are improving on delivery times. Demonstrator models of the A1 have been shown, so the tooling is cut, and therefore I'd be confident we'll see them in a timescale of months.

 

Cheers,

Alan

[Dr Al]

The Dapol diesels by contrast are generaly as good, if not better than the Farish ones

 

Sadly my experiences don't concur:

 

- early 66s (7 examples) were noisy, had hugely stiff gearing that could be so stiff it would burn out the motor (in one case). Dapol's response of oiling it doesn't generally work.

- 73 was noisy and is fitted with a 3 pole motor with no brush changing ability. Later 73s had a plastic chassis and resulting very poor haulage capacity. Also some split gears.

- 35 is as above, but also performs poorly on gradients due to huge slop in the gearing allowing it to 'jump'. Also early ones fitted with huge flanged wheels.

- 220 was hugely noisy and barely able to pull it's own weight due to hugely stiff pickups. Even with this fixed it runs as noisy as a Farish 101...

- 221 was much better but suffered tight back-to-backs, and pizza cutter flanges and did not run as well through turnouts as it could. Sticky at slow speeds due to 3 pole motor.

- 67 suffered problems with PCBs shorting due to them being covered in flux. I also had one where a motor bearing collapsed

- 156 suffers from loose bogies (that fall out!), contact springs that give up, and poor soldering of PCBs. Also the Tomix couplers on the outer ends don't always center.

- HSTs appear to be suffering from poorly assembled glazing on the powercars - seems to have been crudely glued on.

 

The two I've seen that haven't suffered anything are the 58 and 86, both of which seem to perform well (exceptionally well in the case of the 86).

 

But overall worse than Farish IMHO.

 

where Farish have had a number of generic problems (such as splitting gears and poorly aligned pick-ups)

 

Fairly limited these days and improving - seems to be early 66s (66135 and 66610), a few class 57s, and the class 20 (old tooling now discontinued and being retooled) that suffer.

 

Dapol suffer this too - I know of some 73s having the same trouble. Pickups are something they need to improve - nothing inherently wrong with the designs, but the assembly could be better.

 

Cheers,

Alan

[Karhedron]

I once spoke to a retailer who reported that the return rate was approximately the same for both Farish and Dapol overall. This suggests that people who have particular strong experiences for or against either manufacturer are probably just lucky/unlucky.

[Dr Al]

I once spoke to a retailer who reported that the return rate was approximately the same for both Farish and Dapol overall. This suggests that people who have particular strong experiences for or against either manufacturer are probably just lucky/unlucky.

 

Perhaps, though a sample set of one model shop isn't necessarily representative - for instance it's been reported in the past of shops stopping stocking some manufacturers products due to the large number of returns.

 

Sadly I can add an 8th first batch 66 to the list of Dapols that have had problems (drawing 300mA and running very slow again due to stiff gears - now freed and loco running on 125mA with good top speed......).

 

Cheers,

Alan