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Dapol 'Western'


Andy Y
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Yep, it's a lovely looking model but not when you look at the underside and examine one of the bogies:

attachicon.gifWesternBogie.jpg

Look at the middle axle. When placed on the track the loco ran well but as soon as the loco went through the first point the rear bogie jumped. Examination revealed that there is no lateral movement in the middle axle as well as the back-to-back measurements being a bit off.

Made contact with DCC Supplies yesterday and arrangements being made to return the loco to them - hopefully it will be an easy replacement of the middle axle. In the same package, however, will be a headcode disc Cl.22 which does not run smoothly - it sort of surges faster-slower-faster etc. These two locos will join Western Sovereign which worked well at first but then expired...and is now waiting for a replacement chassis to be sourced.

Three problem locos is more than I would like but, touch wood, no problems with Western Enterprise, another headcode disc Cl.22, three headcode box Cl.22s,the LMS twins, three Beattie Well Tanks and four Sentinels have materialised. 3 out of 17 locos purchased.......and with more Dapol locos on backorder I sincerely hope things do get better.

Keith

EDIT: removed duplicate posting of picture

 

....just another example of Dapol's persistent failure to insert penalty clauses into contracts with their Chinese factories. It is cheaper and more profitable for them to give you faulty products... than to do the job properly.

 

Dave

Edited by Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71
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....just another example of Dapol's persistent failure to insert penalty clauses into contracts with their Chinese factories. ..

 

You appear to be assuming that it would be easy to enforce under Chinese law. The Chinese legal system is at a very early stage in development and more still depends on what influence you have with the officials who matter rather than what you know.

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...don't defend the indefensible H. The bottom line is that a considerable amount of these models are not fit for purpose and I'm not hearing of any plans by Dapol to improve the situation. If the Chinese can't deliver then they should be kicked into the long grass...not rewarded with yet more contracts...it sends the absolute wrong message.  

 

Dave

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...don't defend the indefensible H. The bottom line is that a considerable amount of these models are not fit for purpose and I'm not hearing of any plans by Dapol to improve the situation. If the Chinese can't deliver then they should be kicked into the long grass...not rewarded with yet more contracts...it sends the absolute wrong message.  

 

 

In that case, we should not have any Westerns available at all, and all of the work - Dapol's, yours, RMWeb contributors, etc. - has been wasted.

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...and supplying models which are only fit to shove in a glass case isn't an equal or greater waste of time?? 

 

If a company is going to manufacture/contract for working models...then that is exactly what they should be...not a half-baked excuse for the damn thing!! 

 

Dave

Edited by Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71
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...and supplying models which are only fit to shove in a glass case isn't an equal or greater waste of time?? 

 

If a company is going to manufacture/contract for working models...then that is exactly what they should be...not a half-baked excuse for the damn thing!! 

 

Dave

For me they are works of art - having them run, light up , make sounds is a bonus. My girlfriend is an art collector - she acknowledges them as being such.

 

best colbard 

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If a company is going to manufacture/contract for working models...then that is exactly what they should be...not a half-baked excuse for the damn thing!! 

 

The claim, "If your wheels are true...they're most likely Ultrascale" seems to be saying "most wheels need work". Given this firm wanted a five-month lead time when I enquired (I did not order!), most of us are using someone else's wheels and making them work as needed. As a railway modeller, as opposed to a purchaser of railway models, I learnt how to fix wheels and back to backs when I went to code 75 track.

 

A railway model can be made to a higher specification (try the Fleischmann DB BR 218, list about £185), but imagine the outcry if the Western price went up to match and people said "it's exactly the same!"

 

The typical British modeller is conditioned to expect to pay rock-bottom prices for perfection, and manufacturers like Dapol face something of a risk to get the price and the product to tally. I know the wheels should be spot on ... but at the present price point, it is a lot easier to set up some wheels or tweak some other detail than build the model from a kit or from scratch; and the result will be first class, and a good deal cheaper than the Flesichmann.

 

Richard.

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Colbard...it isn't a bonus to have a product advertised as a working model....that actually runs. It is the bare minimum that makes it 'fit for purpose' and saves the manufacturer from the trade description act. Work of art suggests static and hanging on the wall...now you're talking.

 

Richard...the difference is that you are warned before you order Ultrascale products of when you should expect delivery (of something that is fit for purpose)...it is then your choice as to whether you place an order. If Dapol had to list all of the potential problems with their products on the front of their loco boxes...then they wouldn't have any customers. As for paying £185 for something that does what it is supposed to do...then where is the problem? Paying £120 for something that doesn't, is a 100% waste of money. 

 

Dave

Edited by Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71
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Richard ... As for paying £185 for something that does what it is supposed to do...then where is the problem? Paying £120 for something that doesn't, is a 100% waste of money. 

Perhaps a good compromise would be for the manufacturer to fit an EM profile wheel, set to 00 gauge but able to be regauged to 18.2. For me (using 00), this would be worth paying for. The P4 people would have to pay the extra and still throw away the wheels, not so good. The Continental manufacturers don't have to put up with all this! I do currently expect to change the wheels on a RTR wagon or a coach, but not on a locomotive, which is probably a bit silly one way or the other.

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...don't defend the indefensible H. The bottom line is that a considerable amount of these models are not fit for purpose and I'm not hearing of any plans by Dapol to improve the situation. If the Chinese can't deliver then they should be kicked into the long grass...not rewarded with yet more contracts...it sends the absolute wrong message.  

 

Dave

 

Hi Dave,

Sorry mate, but 'a considerable amount of these models are not fit for purpose' is incorrect, inflamatory and potentially damaging to any company.

 

Please let me and your fellow modellers on here know how many is 'considerable' out of the almost 4000 models out there? I'm sure we'd all be interested to know please.

 

Back in the real world, I can totally appreciate frustration and annoyance when a model someone buys from us (or anyone come to that) does not perform as advertised. It's not good for the customer, the stockist or the manufacturer. I sympathise, and will go out of my way to get any problem for customers rectified personally if I can. I hate problems.

 

Now the problem with the Western isn't an epidemic, it's a relative few out of the whole production batch. That doesn't mean the whole lot are like it, and it doesn't, I assure you, mean a 'considerable' amount. so far, and yes I understand the argument that;

1) People might have them in cabinets and not ran them yet ergo problems might be latent for the time being.

2) People may not have noticed.

3) People may have a problem but have decided to live with it

4) There might be loads sitting in model shops (pretty much sold out but a possible valid argument)

 

But I can tell you that so far DCCSupplies have , as of my conversation this morning with Andy, only now had a grand total of 30 Westerns back as faulty in 1 way or another. so in other words less than 1% have been returned and only 3 of those 30 have been written off so far. This has been due to Dapol making sure that we have a great repair/service agent in place and a large batch of spares when the product was launched, just in case.

 

Now again, this is not saying that 30 isn't a high figure (I know it isn't) but morally, taking into account where I hope OO manufacture to go to in respect of reliability I don't like it at all, and will always strive to have better figures.

However we are in good company here as I don't think for an instant (based on the less than 1% ive quoted) any of the other manufacturers come close in terms of reliability.  There certainly wont be a Western on the to clear section of the Dapol stand at Warley this year I can tell you!

 

As for posting 'potential problems' on the front of our box before selling them, i'm sorry that's a daft statement. Would you say that to every other manufacturer? if so I look forward to you posting that to their forums too. :jester:

 

Any product should work as advertised out of the box. the fact it doesn't seriously makes me unhappy, and we do endeavour to put it right under the warranty.

Rest assured the Western doesn't portray us sitting back on our laurels and trying to rake in the kudos, we look at problems and action  them, where possible,

as I hope others on this forum would testify.

 

Cheers

Dave

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Dave,

 

It just so happens that most of the intended diesel stock for TG comes from your range... therefore I am paying particular attention to your products. I already have 6 of your hydraulics (3 x class 22 and 3 x class 52) which is a considerable sum of money already spent...with more planned. Every one has had problems...which I have rectified in some way. Each loco is tested when it arrives but then undergoes many hours of detailing/weathering etc which means that direct replacement for any future problems is poor compensation. Also, out of all of the modellers which I know, who also have these models (towards 20).... I have heard of problems with each model that they have. Whether they put up with the problems or contact you.. I can't say. 

 

At the very least it makes me extremely nervous to keep on ordering your products...wondering how long each will run before it expires.

 

Based on my personal experience a 'considerable number of defective models' is bang on. If you don't like to hear it...then raise your game...mate!

 

Dave           

Edited by Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71
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Dave.

Yes its me again.

Not to slag you or Dapol off but seeing that members/everyday general modelers are reporting faults at now an alarming pace how many have not been sent back to dcc supplies.

I have had 5 westerns and now 2 class 22s fail me and witnessed another 17 westerns in shops run to below par standards so what are the shops/members doing with them.

All I can say it gives false information and no one wants to take the blame and a local model shop to me lossed a lot off trade due to these issues ( I had planned for at least 16 westerns alone).

Lets hope for the future that things come to light and all the best to you and the Dapol team and we can all settle down and injoy them.

 

Richard.

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Colbard...it isn't a bonus to have a product advertised as a working model....that actually runs. It is the bare minimum that makes it 'fit for purpose' and saves the manufacturer from the trade description act. Work of art suggests static and hanging on the wall...now you're talking.

 

Richard...the difference is that you are warned before you order Ultrascale products of when you should expect delivery (of something that is fit for purpose)...it is then your choice as to whether you place an order. If Dapol had to list all of the potential problems with their products on the front of their loco boxes...then they wouldn't have any customers. As for paying £185 for something that does what it is supposed to do...then where is the problem? Paying £120 for something that doesn't, is a 100% waste of money. 

 

Dave

 

 

Colbard...it isn't a bonus to have a product advertised as a working model....that actually runs. It is the bare minimum that makes it 'fit for purpose' and saves the manufacturer from the trade description act. Work of art suggests static and hanging on the wall...now you're talking.

 

Richard...the difference is that you are warned before you order Ultrascale products of when you should expect delivery (of something that is fit for purpose)...it is then your choice as to whether you place an order. If Dapol had to list all of the potential problems with their products on the front of their loco boxes...then they wouldn't have any customers. As for paying £185 for something that does what it is supposed to do...then where is the problem? Paying £120 for something that doesn't, is a 100% waste of money. 

 

Dave

 

 

 

Oh dear, has your wife run off, your kids nowhere to be seen, even the dog packing its bags?

 

best colbard

 

 

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...I'm curious Colbard...why are you suggesting that standing up for my rights as a consumer is in some way a personality issue?

 

If more did it, then we wouldn't have need of this exchange now.

 

Dave

 

Hi Dave

 

It's probably because Colbard has formed the same impression of Dave Jones that I have, based on his many contributions to RMWeb - ie he's a thoroughly decent bloke who is trying hard to deliver continuous improvement for his customers and who always tries to sort out problems when people raise them. So using the kind of language that you've used in the posts above might be seen as slightly unfair to someone who has regularly gone the extra mile for forum members over the years. I may have completely misread things, but I'd be very surprised if he isn't very concerned about the feedback on the rogue Westerns and 22s and already looking to ensure that issues like this are minimised in any future production runs.

 

David

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Hi David,

 

...based on my observation of this forum over several years I would agree with what you say.

 

Unfortunately, I am battling with avoidable defects in a number of his products, whilst hearing more reports of similar from friends and reading of yet more on various e-forums.

 

These are complex models which require considerable manufacturing ability in order to produce them to a high standard. 

 

I'm not seeing that

 

Dave

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Hi Dave,

 

Surprisingly I agree with you, just not the inflammatory way you have put it over on here.

 

You say you've fixed every model. Great, and I mean it sincerely.

However, you are quite right ,you shouldn't have to.

 

Maybe the problem is with you?

 

Thought that would get your attention. Yes you and the other modellers who fix their model rather than send it back.

After all its a 1 year warranty extended to 2 for a cheap service in between.

 

And........(and here's the point) if you keep fixing it when you shouldn't have to we don't get the model back via DCC supplies who then would normally fix then send a monthly report to Dapol listing faults and suggesting remedies.

 

We need to see a pattern in returned loco's I'm afraid. Just saying its a 'wrong un, but don't worry I fixed it' helps neither you, your fellow modeller or Dapol investigate and improve things.

 

Bitching here is all well and good and is your right of ourse but let us see the model. It helps everyone.

 

Again, the use of the word considerable is emotive. Considerable in my books would be 3% and I'm afraid whether your contributing to the lower figure or not, is the one we and the Conese go on.

 

Cheers

Dave

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Hi Richard,

 

Got out from under that bridge I see, it must be the heat.

 

Congratulations on winning this weeks 'Dapol wooden spoon award' for stirring and services against Dapol while still ignoring help from RMweb members.:-)

 

Dave

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Hi Dave,

 

Surprisingly I agree with you, just not the inflammatory way you have put it over on here.

 

You say you've fixed every model. Great, and I mean it sincerely.

However, you are quite right ,you shouldn't have to.

 

Maybe the problem is with you?

 

Thought that would get your attention. Yes you and the other modellers who fix their model rather than send it back.

After all its a 1 year warranty extended to 2 for a cheap service in between.

 

And........(and here's the point) if you keep fixing it when you shouldn't have to we don't get the model back via DCC supplies who then would normally fix then send a monthly report to Dapol listing faults and suggesting remedies.

 

We need to see a pattern in returned loco's I'm afraid. Just saying its a 'wrong un, but don't worry I fixed it' helps neither you, your fellow modeller or Dapol investigate and improve things.

 

Bitching here is all well and good and is your right of ourse but let us see the model. It helps everyone.

 

Again, the use of the word considerable is emotive. Considerable in my books would be 3% and I'm afraid whether your contributing to the lower figure or not, is the one we and the Conese go on.

 

Cheers

Dave

 

Dave,

 

Once I've spent several hours modifying a model e.g. the bogies in order to fit P4 wheelsets...given your wheelsets to someone else to replace defective ones under their loco and received a bag of detailing parts back in exchange, to make up for the one missing from mine. Then I go on to attempt to gain access to the cabs to fit the crew/headcode blinds to fit the details but find rounded off screws which then have to be drilled out...then I start to wonder at how much training was given/time allowed to/for the incompetent who built the damn thing to do his/her job.

 

I have invested too much of my time already, at each stage, in order to part with the loco and risk not getting it back.

 

I don't mind, and expect occasional issues but currently there are too many, too often.

 

Quality control should not be being done by your customers in the first place...it should be being done at the point of manufacture or else on entry to this country.

 

Dave  

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Just to add another perspective

 

5 locos on Abbotswood

 

2 x 22s, 3 x westerns

 

Problems to date -

 

1 failed stub axle in a class 22 wheel set, replacement supplied by DCC supplies, didn't want to send model back as already weathered etc so bore cost myself

 

1 stripped screw on a Western - all 3 require the mods I listed above

 

Now if I was a run it straight out of the box modeller not able to tinker that would have been enough to cause me frustration

 

But like probably all others on here I am not - and I consider the time and effort invested well worth while to get the best version of one model and the only version of the other on our layout.

 

Thanks Dave - please come up with further versions and please continue to seek the improvements in quality already alluded to.

 

Phil

Edited by Phil Bullock
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Dave.

I rest my case.

I have merely pointed out that I have had many problems with a product you pay a lot of money for and time again sending back to the shop who then has to pay to send via dcc supplies then on return find it still fails.

I have still yet to see a western in person behave itself.

I have not refused help in anyway and have had 5 returned to dcc supplies to help hopefully solve the issue with no success.If this aint working its beyond your help which I praise you for.

If this is stirring/ scare mongering then let it be and wont be buying Dapol products again due to the above remarks.

All I have done is highlighted there is a big fault in running operations and this is the response I get,so much for customer satisfaction and many of weeks of frustration as to what on the outside is beautifull model.

Its good nite from me as someone needs to own up on its running abilitys.

 

Richard.

 

 

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Hi Richard,

 

Members here have suggested possible remedies to you, not to put the blame on you but to try and eliminate possibilities to help you.

You have ignored people's suggestions and not had the courtesy of thanking them, merely put the 'your trying to blame me' defences up.

 

A little humility and less trolling would help you in every way here, but I doubt on your past postings and lack of respect for your peers on here that that will happen.

 

Dave

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Apologies for not having the time to read all of the above, but just to throw my two penneth in if it helps anyone. I've had two Westerns through my hands recently and they've both been fine and really good runners. One maroon, one blue. 

 

Don't model the western region myself but I have to say I'm very impressed with them from what I've seen with the two that I've had. 

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Another perspective.  

 

I have four 22s.  None has exhibited anything I would call a problem.  There is very slight wheel wobble on two which is less than that exhibited by random other locos from all the major brands.

 

I have two 52s with more in the mail.  Neither has a running issue though the maroon spy has the slightest hint of waddle at one end.  Again it's well within what I would consider acceptable limitations of scale and neither detracts from looks nor performance.  The only issue has been that on both received so far one body fixing screw has been severely over-tightened.  It's the same one as well.  Leading end (as determined by the fitted pipework) beneath the driver's seat.  Neither was able to be removed other than by force; both have now been removed complete with their "female" insert meaning the bodies are refitted with only three screws after crews have been added.

 

I could have chosen to return those in question to DCC Supplies or my retailer.  Both would mean another trip back across the planet but if they failed to work to my satisfaction back they would have gone.

 

I also have three Beattie well tanks of which two perform faultlessly and one - admittedly the one not intended for running and which has not therefore been run in - is occasionally reluctant at slow speeds.  I have no intention of doing anything other than enjoying these.

 

Three more of Kernow's limited editions are in transit somewhere between China, Camborne and Australia and if any fails to work correctly then I shall be in touch.  But for now I have to say I am more than satisfied with my purchases which work as well as any others and look rather better than their equivalents.  

 

We all set different personal standards and levels of expectation.  A small number of us (not including myself) is skilled in the engineering of fixing minor irritations which might include resetting back-to-backs for example.  I acknowledge the fact that some of the locos in question have not lived up to the expectations of some purchasers.  The same would probably be true of other brands and items as well.  At least we have in Dapol Dave a customer-focussed member of our community willing to take on board comments and seek solutions.  The value of that input should not be under-estimated; no other manufacturer does as much in such a public and helpful manner.

 

Personally I have every confidence in my future purchases (the remaining 52s and a fleet of D600 Warships together with some bubblecar DMUs) working as intended within the limitations of scale and adding substantially to the motive power fleet and interest in my projects.

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