RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted November 26, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 26, 2012 Well I can think of two gents who fall into that cetegory Dave. I'm sure either will produce a sound scheme to match the fidelity of your loco Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kal Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 Hi I can think of 3, but only one that puts it on a decent sound chip. Regards Kal Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted November 26, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 26, 2012 Thanks for the update Dave Will we see the BFYEs in the shops for Xmas? SWMBO wants my Xmas list! Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 I don't need such a massive upheaval just to justify one of these, after all, the Westerns managed to find their way to the ER and LMR on railtours, that'll be good enough for me! And the southern end of the MR mainline. Sitting in the pub on Friday lunchtimes I saw this train regularly as it crossed the skew bridge in Harpenden, but never photographed it - possibly because by then they were blue!. Paul Bartlett Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DapolDave Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Hi guys, So those that saw the maroon ones at the weekend, are they too pink? We have colour matched them quite well i think for loco maroon, but as ever this needs to be correct. opinions please. Cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted November 27, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 27, 2012 Hi guys, So those that saw the maroon ones at the weekend, are they too pink? We have colour matched them quite well i think for loco maroon, but as ever this needs to be correct. opinions please. Cheers Dave Lighting and looking through glass can make a difference but I thought all three of the painted complete locos had main body colour which looked correct, including the maroon. But (there had to be a 'but', sorry) compared with my recollection of the original early Swindon painted maroon locos the colour did look paler - the original Swindon maroon always seemed very dark to me when new but we mustn't overlook that once in traffic appearance changed quickly and the impact of natural lighting conditions also alters our perception of colour. The other thing with the 1000s was the effect of weathering which, especially on maroon locos, seemed to have a fairly quick impact and, in my view, often lightened the perceived colour of the loco. It is of course around 50 years since I was looking at brand new 1000s standing outside A Shop and my eyes have also changed over the years plus I'm looking to remember colour (which can be tricky although I'm usually pretty good at it) but I thought the trio looked right. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold MikeParkin65 Posted November 27, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 27, 2012 Hi guys, So those that saw the maroon ones at the weekend, are they too pink? We have colour matched them quite well i think for loco maroon, but as ever this needs to be correct. opinions please. Cheers Dave Afternoon Dave, It was I that described the maroon as 'too pink' on the other thread under news. Maroon does seem to be a hard colour to replicate (look how many shades Hornby has used on its LMS Pacifics) and The Stationmaster above is closer in saying that the rendition on the Western samples at Warley looks 'pale' or 'weathered'. Very hard to describe colour without matching to a (real) sample but I would say it should be a deeper and more vibrant colour than the samples. Bachmann BR coach maroon is close but a little flat. Heljans maroon Western (sorry!) which in all other respects yours knocks the socks off of! is better again. Best maroon I saw at Warley was the live steam OO Duchess - did you get chance to see it? I'd buy a maroon one if I thought the shade was right but will be perfectly happy with a green one - not that any Western really fits in with my collection but its such a good model it has become a 'must have'! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Lighting and looking through glass can make a difference but I thought all three of the painted complete locos had main body colour which looked correct, including the maroon. But (there had to be a 'but', sorry) compared with my recollection of the original early Swindon painted maroon locos the colour did look paler - the original Swindon maroon always seemed very dark to me when new but we mustn't overlook that once in traffic appearance changed quickly and the impact of natural lighting conditions also alters our perception of colour. The other thing with the 1000s was the effect of weathering which, especially on maroon locos, seemed to have a fairly quick impact and, in my view, often lightened the perceived colour of the loco. It is of course around 50 years since I was looking at brand new 1000s standing outside A Shop and my eyes have also changed over the years plus I'm looking to remember colour (which can be tricky although I'm usually pretty good at it) but I thought the trio looked right. What we don't know is how these were prepared and what undercoating was used. For example, was it the same as the coaches of the time or different - it is quite possible that being a much more expensive piece of kit that they took more time in preparing for the finish. This has been the problem with maroon ever since the Midland Railway used it, with their numerous (14 has been suggested) coats and rubbing down. David Jenkinson would tell anyone that would listen that the colour had not changed from MR times through to the 1960s, only the preparation. The other 'problem' is that the WR was using a harsh cleaner in their coach cleaning automatic plant - by the early 1960s when I was 'spotting' Hawksworths were down to bare metal along the centre line. I suspect that the same would happen to their locos, so fading as you suggest. Lovely colour though for a loco which was so slab sided. Unlike the hiddeous desert sand which I thought looked like vomit. The Warships in maroon always looked very "rich" in their finish as well. Paul Bartlett 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DapolDave Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Hi Mike, Thanks for the mail. sorry i didnt attribute the original to you and no offence meant but i did need to post here to try and gauge thoughts. Checking BR Loco maroon samples i have it seems spot o, and nowhere near BR Coach maroon which was on some of the first built ones before the specification changed from coach to loco maroon. I certainly dont think the hall lighting helped as it is too yellow, but here on my window ledge they look fine. However this also doesnt mean they 'are' fine, as i am open to offers. lol I've also checked against Railmatch and Precision BR Maroon and find the railmatch definately too pink, but precision very close, if that helps? cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted November 27, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 27, 2012 What we don't know is how these were prepared and what undercoating was used. Paul Bartlett Visible on various visits at Swindon - a pinkish red primer and some locos (not sure about the maroon ones) had a grey undercoat - which gradually became visible on quite a few thanks to the CWM action you've described. And to reiterate my earlier comment - it looked correct to me at Warley (subject to caveat re the lighting) but was paler than the original Swindon colour. If the latter was not clear I meant as it was on e.g. D1007 when first built, not the later maroon subsequently adopted as standard - which accords with what Dave has said in post No. 817. While it is b&w my pic of D1007 which lurks somewhere on RMweb shows just how dark the original maroon was. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold MikeParkin65 Posted November 27, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 27, 2012 Hi Mike, Thanks for the mail. sorry i didnt attribute the original to you and no offence meant but i did need to post here to try and gauge thoughts. No offence taken - I was a little worried myself that I had offended you by failing to find a better description than 'too pink'! I take your point about the lighting at Warley although the both the blue and the green versions in the same display looked exactly right so I do think there is an issue with the maroon, Allowing for all of the limitations of digital photography and variations in machine settings is there any chance you could post some images on here of all 3 (blue, green and maroon) so that we can view them comparatively? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DapolDave Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Hi Mike, I'll try and do this tomorrow. I think1 of each one then a group shot in natural light may help. Cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon020 Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 (edited) Digital Sound..! Hmmm, perhaps this could be offered as an add-on for those that pre-ordered what was on offer on the basis that DCC Sound was not going to be factory fitted (pretty sure that was the status earlier this year when I asked anyway)? Would be nice to know if such an option was likely to exist. Thanks... Jon Edited November 27, 2012 by Jon020 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DapolDave Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Hi Jon, Sorry but Dapol isn't offering the Western as DCC fitted or even DCC sound. All I am doing is facilitating what I consider one of the best DCC sound recordists in the country the chance to record, mix and offer the most dynamic and complete DCC recoding yet available. Cheers Dave 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickL2008 Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Be nice to see more pictures of the final(?) products, the pictures on Facebook I saw didnt show the entire thing! NL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon020 Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Dear David, I apologise, my misunderstanding then. However, I'm interested, so I'll watch with interest ... pre-order still standing firm. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 (edited) ...This has been the problem with maroon ever since the Midland Railway used it ... Having only ever seen 'authentically' seen this shade in routine livery use in BR's tender keeping, the aspect that struck me was just how much it varied with lighting conditions and surface finish. Just to pick one consequence, surely others must have seen the effect on a bright summer day as a train went from direct solar illumination to the shade from a cloud, and back into sunlight: blazing red / subdued almost purple shade / blazing red? Lovely colour, lovely effects, biggo problem in model form... Edited November 28, 2012 by 34theletterbetweenB&D 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DapolDave Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Hi guys, sorry its late but as promised some pictures taken outside in sunny conditions of all 3 (BR Blue, Maroon and Green) Westerns. Please note the grey roof isny on the model and that the double arrows are incorrect. Interesting to note the maroon is pink in one picture but in others darker (as it looks with the naked eye. sorry about the blurriness of some as i was handholding the camera with a wide shutter to try and get a good depth of field. As usual comments welcome cheers Dave 15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted November 29, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 29, 2012 (edited) The middle shot with the "pink" maroon also renders the rail blue almost as pale as on the 22s. I guess that's a factor of using low-angle winter light which is relatively weak yet can throw up odd effects. That same image shows the green to look about right to me yet that appears a bit closer to olive in the solo shot! That much said and bearing in mind I haven't seen the samples the maroon is a definitely pale compared with my recollection of the real thing and printed images in numerous books but the naked eye may interpret the colour rendering of the samples differently. The circulated images of the Kernow weathered blue sample look spot on. We are also dealing with the difference between coach-painted metal on the real things and tinted plastic for the models which is an altogether different colouring process and may never look as gloss as an ex-works loco with a near mirror finish on deep colours. Edited November 29, 2012 by Gwiwer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted November 29, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 29, 2012 Alright by me Dave - the 'darker' version of the maroon looks perfectly ok and as it looked on Saturday (allowing for different lighting). The green looks a bit 'muddy' in one of the above pics but looked perfectly ok on Saturday and certainly does not put me off in the least and the blue also looks good. The only pristine liveries which interest me are green and very early maroon and I find both of them to be quite acceptable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gerbil-Fritters Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 I wonder how a coat of Kleer will effect the depth and sheen of the colours - it has a pretty spectacular impact on certain steamers of this parish... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 They look to be exhibiting the prototype variance of colours in those shots nicely. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy1963 Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Hi guys, sorry its late but as promised some pictures taken outside in sunny conditions of all 3 (BR Blue, Maroon and Green) Westerns. Please note the grey roof isny on the model and that the double arrows are incorrect. Interesting to note the maroon is pink in one picture but in others darker (as it looks with the naked eye. sorry about the blurriness of some as i was handholding the camera with a wide shutter to try and get a good depth of field. As usual comments welcome cheers Dave They all look great, can't wait to get hold of my Maroon with small yellow warning panels. A question for Dave regarding the name plates. I know they are going to be supplied without the name and number plates attached my question is, are the name and number plates going to be self adhesive or are we going to have to super glue them on? I've seen a lot of people make a dreadful mess with super glue which would be a shame. Also, how will they be positioned correctly? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D1030western musketeer Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Nice one dave. Look western and thanks for all the hard work in getting it right. Roll on january. richard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the penguin of doom Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Having seen these at Warley, I agree that the Maroon may have been a little light. I wonder though if this may be an optical illusion? The Maroon one has a full Yellow end and I'm thinking this may alter the perception as opposed to one with a small, or no warning panel? The reason I say this is, when one is painting a model, each different colour that is applied changes the overall look of the model as one goes along. Just a thought..... Cheers. Sean. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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