New & Improved Class 33

[dibber25]

The value for money factor typically seems to be skews the overall mark, maybe it ought to be left out of what otherwise is a rating of how accurate a model is.

It does skew the mark. I wondered about inverting the score so that the better the value, the lower the mark, but that doesn't work, either. Anyway, it's not my call.

CHRIS LEIGH

[scorpion]

better than reading a review is to look at the model, if it looks like a 33 then buy it

 

if you have to go looking at a drawing then perhaps you don't know what a 33 looks like

 

rule 1 , if you like it buy it, why would you look for reasons not to

 

oops, kicked the worm can over

[Butler Henderson]

better than reading a review is to look at the model, if it looks like a 33 then buy it

 

if you have to go looking at a drawing then perhaps you don't know what a 33 looks like

 

That applied with Bachmanns first attempt at a 37, I know people who bought it because it was said it was a 37 on the box, they might as well as labelled as Deltic as well then.

[jjb1970]

The value for money factor typically seems to be the one that skews the overall mark, maybe it ought to be left out of what otherwise is a rating of how accurate a model is.

I don't know about rating in a review and maybe some sort of weighting could be applied but for sure value is important and it is entirely correct to expect more from a high end expensive model than a budget hobbyline/railroad style model. One of my hobbies is collecting (and occasionally running) US and Japaese outline brass models and my tolerance of error, poor finish or anything untoward on those models is close to zero. Conversely, if buying a budget model I am willing to give quite a bit of leeway providing the overall impression is good. As with most things, expectations do have a link to cost and I think it fair that a budget model that manages to make an excellent impression should be rated highly, with the opposite true for full price models with failings. On the whole I think Model Rail get it about right really.

[griffgriff]

That applied with Bachmanns first attempt at a 37, I know people who bought it because it was said it was a 37 on the box, they might as well as labelled as Deltic as well then.

... would it of looked more like a 40 than the 40 too

 

However this is an interesting point.  Knowledge of the prototype is key IMHO. Much of my familiarity of 33's was developed from the steps of the 'hot water bottle store' on the end of platforms 2/3 at Salisbury station.  I remember seeing them bounce across the point work through the western throat, I know them pretty well.  I had a Bachmann class 40 and I thought it an impressive model so I bought one but then I wasn't half as informed about their body work so I was quite happy.  However it really shouldn't be like that should it

[Enterprisingwestern]

better than reading a review is to look at the model, if it looks like a 33 then buy it

 

if you have to go looking at a drawing then perhaps you don't know what a 33 looks like

 

rule 1 , if you like it buy it, why would you look for reasons not to

 

oops, kicked the worm can over

 

You've missed the can by a mile.

We'll all look forward to coming and seeing your layout, which presimably consists of Triang series 4 track, Triang class 31's and 37's and Lima class 33's etc etc, because they look like what they are supposed to be?

 

Mike.

[brushman47544]

I bought the original Heljan 33/0 because it was a far better effort than the Lima one and I could live with the incorrect roof profile. Yes, it was a shame Heljan didn't get it right, but up to now it's still the best 33/0 available RTR. Whether I will replace it will depend how much better the new version is, since the existing one still runs very well.

 

Similarly the early Bachmann 37 (I have the BCC L/E of D6717) is despite it's obvious faults in my opinion better than the Lima one (yes, I'm sure not everyone will agree but I particularly don't like Lima's cabs) and I am happy to keep it.

 

On the other hand, the errors with the bodyside grills on Heljan's 86 were too obvious and detracting, so I didn't buy it.

 

Don't we buy our models based on what is currently available, particularly if we "need" it for our layouts, and it looks sufficiently like the real thing for your own tastes? I certainly would think of waiting in case something better came along in the future.

[black and decker boy]

I think the quest for ultimate fidelity in models is a personal one. There are those modellers who will chase the ultimate 33 model, ultimate 37 model etc. They may do this via wishlists, conversions or making their own. The majority of modellers will happily buy a reasonably priced, reasonably accurate, reasonably reliable model. The Heljan 33/0 falls into this bracket for me. I did buy some of the original version as any errors were lost on my untrained eye. I also have had over time many Bachmann 37s and 24s & 25s as they were an improvement on the older generation from Hornby & Lima. I have now sold my 33/0s on the basis of the original REx proposal but as that has fallen through and Heljan are offering an upgrade, I will be sticking with Heljan. There may still be a market for both 33/0 models as if REx do produce 'the ultimate' in due course then all those that want such a model are likely to still buy one. The middle market will always have had the original Heljan version on discount \ 2nds so competing against their upgraded model (which by then will be on discount) is little different. With a new manufacturer, the REx model must be looking at 2015 or even 2016 now?

 

Absolute howlers such as the Heljan 86 have remained off limits for me too which is a great shame as I had intended to buy some. Detailing up a Hornby 87 / 90 etc to a decent level is easy and gets you a good representation of the loco. Rebuilding the HJ 86 to acheive the same is nigh on impossible and life is too short. I still hope for a retooled body but fear it will be  along wait.

[JSpencer]

Is the market big enough for TWO corrected 33/0s? Probably not but I,ll have 2 of each anyway.

 

I don,t doubt REx could out do the revamped Heljan model. But how marginal or much that will be? Only time will tell - if the REx one does not drop off the radar (here we can only hope those who placed orders for two packs, keep to there word to purchase them).

[frobisher]

JSpencer, on 09 Dec 2013 - 23:00, said:

Is the market big enough for TWO corrected 33/0s? Probably not but I,ll have 2 of each anyway.

The abundance of competing Class 47 and 37 models would indicate probably yes. Because the 33 was an early Lima model, I think it's more heavily lodged in the modelling psyche than perhaps it should be based on historical geographical distribution.

[JSpencer]

The abundance of competing Class 47 and 37 models would indicate probably yes. Because the 33 was an early Lima model, I think it's more heavily lodged in the modelling psyche than perhaps it should be based on historical geographical distribution.

True and Bachmann just redid their class 40.

 

In any case REs have sent a mail saying they still intend to do theirs despite Heljan,s announcement and provided a little extra info that the revised Heljan one did not meet ALL their requirements.

 

I suppose it will be like 10000, with one making a very good model followed by another making a perfect one!

[JSpencer]

I think the quest for ultimate fidelity in models is a personal one. There are those modellers who will chase the ultimate 33 model, ultimate 37 model etc. They may do this via wishlists, conversions or making their own. The majority of modellers will happily buy a reasonably priced, reasonably accurate, reasonably reliable model. The Heljan 33/0 falls into this bracket for me. I did buy some of the original version as any errors were lost on my untrained eye. I also have had over time many Bachmann 37s and 24s & 25s as they were an improvement on the older generation from Hornby & Lima. I have now sold my 33/0s on the basis of the original REx proposal but as that has fallen through and Heljan are offering an upgrade, I will be sticking with Heljan. There may still be a market for both 33/0 models as if REx do produce 'the ultimate' in due course then all those that want such a model are likely to still buy one. The middle market will always have had the original Heljan version on discount \ 2nds so competing against their upgraded model (which by then will be on discount) is little different. With a new manufacturer, the REx model must be looking at 2015 or even 2016 now?

 

Absolute howlers such as the Heljan 86 have remained off limits for me too which is a great shame as I had intended to buy some. Detailing up a Hornby 87 / 90 etc to a decent level is easy and gets you a good representation of the loco. Rebuilding the HJ 86 to acheive the same is nigh on impossible and life is too short. I still hope for a retooled body but fear it will be  along wait.

Indeed REx just mailed that theirs are still going ahead. I for one will not cancel my order. In any case it would be at least 2 years before they appear which is enough time for anyone with them on order to save up for them.

[the-gog]

Model Rail today posted a factory-decorated sample of D6510, which will be their mag's limited edition

 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151919134273207

 

 

Richard

[BR(S)]

Same question I posted in the Model Rail thread, in case some don't look there:

 

There is a question mark raised in the Facebook comments as to whether the white should actually be cream.  Can anyone confirm which it should be?  Best picture I have been able to find, which looks white:

 

http://www.flickr.co...N02/6263638748/

[dibber25]

Same question I posted in the Model Rail thread, in case some don't look there:

 

There is a question mark raised in the Facebook comments as to whether the white should actually be cream.  Can anyone confirm which it should be?  Best picture I have been able to find, which looks white:

 

http://www.flickr.co...N02/6263638748/

They were past my home dozens of times a week when I was living at Egham. I remember them as white. It may have been 'off-white'. It certainly wasn't cream. Equally, I remember the Hymek window surrounds as being a pale 'duck-egg' blue, not white. They look white in some photos, however.

CHRIS LEIGH

[BrushVeteran]

Here is my image of D6510 taken back in March 1967 whilst on a northbound freight passing through Oxford. This was used as the basis for the Heljan model.

 

[lapford34102]

Crompton window surrounds were "light grey", BS2660-5-058, Hymek's were white.

HTH

Stu

[the-gog]

BS2660-5-058 is Gossamer, a light cream:

 

http://www.e-paint.co.uk/Lab_values.asp?cRange=BS%202660&cRef=BS%205-058&cDescription=Gossamer

[orcadian]

I've been looking carefully at three good full-colour 'picture books', all published by Ian Allan, viz.-

Derek Huntriss 'Green Diesel Days', Molyneaux & Robertson 'Diesels in Wessex' and Michael Welch 'Diesels on the Southern'.

It is very clear to me from the several photos of Green 33s, including some less than a month in service,  that the colour seems to vary considerably, depending on the strength of the sunlight, the angle at which the  sunlight strikes the loco, and the camera angle!

Yes, it's somewhere between white and pale cream, not grey!  In some photos showing more than one loco, these variations of light and angles produce different colours on each loco, and most certainly the colour appears to change on different parts of the loco, even on a fresh, clean machine. 

 

In the Huntriss book (which unfortunately lacks page numbers!!!!), D6502 is shown at Folkestone on 5th June 1960, very clean, at the head of a rake of similarly-clean crimson & cream Mk 1s. The colour on the loco looks slightly paler than the coach cream to me at the far end of the loco, whilst the nearer endcathching the sunlight looks whiter!

 

Probably the 'whitest' picture I've found is the title page of the Welch book, D6511 almost brand new at Gravesend, but even this doesn't seem as white (to my eyes) as an equally fresh 'Hymek' in the same book, at Weymouth on 22nd July 1962.

One near-certainty from the photos is that the window surround looks to be the same colour as the waistband stripe in my opinion.

 

I recall the keenest aircraft plastic modellers I have known have quite often found that the 'genuine, authentic' colour as applied to a:1 scale sheet of metal doesn't look so 'exactly' right on an 1:72, or 1:48 plastic surface. 

 

So if Model Rail (or Heljan) have access to the 'official' colour specified by BR, or colour swatches/flakes from Eastleigh (BRCW no longer being accessible!), then just go for it!  It won't  stop the  'discussions', but as I've said, my picture books don't do that either!

 

By the  way, Chris, I'm willing to lend you any or all of those titles if you don''t have them or would like to see them - give me a PM!  Sorry, but that's not a general invitation!

 

Richard

 

Edited to include the reference to the D6502 photo.

Edited January 8, 2014 by orcadian

[charliepetty]

I've been looking carefully at three good full-colour 'picture books', all published by Ian Allan, viz.-

Derek Huntriss 'Green Diesel Days', Molyneaux & Robertson 'Diesels in Wessex' and Michael Welch 'Diesels on the Southern'.

It is very clear to me from the several photos of Green 33s, including some less than a month in service,  that the colour seems to vary considerably, depending on the strength of the sunlight, the angle at which the  sunlight strikes the loco, and the camera angle!

Yes, it's somewhere between white and pale cream, not grey!  In some photos showing more than one loco, these variations of light and angles produce different colours on each loco, and most certainly the colour appears to change on different parts of the loco, even on a fresh, clean machine. 

 

In the Huntriss book (which unfortunately lacks page numbers!!!!), D6502 is shown at Folkestone on 5th June 1960, very clean, at the head of a rake of similarly-clean crimson & cream Mk 1s. The colour on the loco looks slightly paler than the coach cream to me at the far end of the loco, whilst the nearer endcathching the sunlight looks whiter!

 

Probably the 'whitest' picture I've found is the title page of the Welch book, D6511 almost brand new at Gravesend, but even this doesn't seem as white (to my eyes) as an equally fresh 'Hymek' in the same book, at Weymouth on 22nd July 1962.

One near-certainty from the photos is that the window surround looks to be the same colour as the waistband stripe in my opinion.

 

I recall the keenest aircraft plastic modellers I have known have quite often found that the 'genuine, authentic' colour as applied to a:1 scale sheet of metal doesn't look so 'exactly' right on an 1:72, or 1:48 plastic surface. 

 

So if Model Rail (or Heljan) have access to the 'official' colour specified by BR, or colour swatches/flakes from Eastleigh (BRCW no longer being accessible!), then just go for it!  It won't  stop the  'discussions', but as I've said, my picture books don't do that either!

 

By the  way, Chris, I'm willing to lend you any or all of those titles if you don''t have them or would like to see them - give me a PM!  Sorry, but that's not a general invitation!

 

Richard

 

Edited to include the reference to the D6502 photo.

I think if I was Mr Sutton (Rex) I would put my pride to one side and get something else out, either a brilliant 37 or better still a batch of differing 47s.   More profit in that!!!!

[Enterprisingwestern]

I can't see very clearly from the photo's, but I would hope the most glaring error has been corrected, viz, the bogie springs?

 

Mike.

 

I'll answer my own question, obviously not it would seem.

 

Mike.

[Andy Y]

I'll answer my own question, obviously not it would seem.

 

Mike.

 

They do look as though they're set back further than they originally were. The side-grilles are still leaving me a bit cold (but we know a man who may be useful ) but the SYP really needs correcting to avoid a respray session.

[Enterprisingwestern]

They do look as though they're set back further than they originally were. The side-grilles are still leaving me a bit cold (but we know a man who may be useful ) but the SYP really needs correcting to avoid a respray session.

 

Flaming footsteps!

 

The problem with the side is grilles is the lack of depth of the plastic body moulding to allow a full depth representation of the framing behind, milling out the chassis casting seems to be the only, rather extreme, way to achieve the required dimension, because "useful man" wants to do it properly, as ever.

 

Mike.

[phil gollin]

.

 

I note that the Model Rail "Facebook" page states ;

 

" .......  Note the much-improved body and cab shape, fine etched metal details and extra detail under the bufferbeam.  ......."

 

However, nothing regarding any changes to the much criticised roof.

 

.

[the-gog]

http://www.modelrailoffers.co.uk/product/42297/3412_Heljan_MR_Class_33_Diesel_Locomotive_number_D6510

 

 

"Based on Heljan’s all-new Class 33/0 tooling, this exclusive model features BR green D6510 in mid-1960s condition with small yellow warning panels and white trim. Improvements over the old ‘33’ include fine etched metal radiator grilles and footsteps, finer handrails and a much better overall body shape."

 

Richard