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New & Improved Class 33


Andy Y
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I can't imagine Phil Sutton would be happy with that!

 

It sounds like Rail Exclusive own the rights to the tooling for this model and it would be this which will affect any future production, which sounds unlikely from what I've read so far.

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I would assume in this case Rail Exclusives will own the tooling as Heljan wouldn't benefit from taking it on afterwards as they already had a 33/0 that could sell. The 37 variants from Bachmann were different in that it was something completely new.

I wasn't sure whether to come back on this, because I don't want to appear negative about the project. I think it is a great idea and hope it is a success. But I simply don't understand the statements that these will be the only models produced using the Rail Exclusive tooling. Making such a declaration now does not make economic sense unless it is to persuade us to buy now.

 

There appear to be two scenarios (and I have no idea which is the case); either Heljan owns the tooling or RE does.

 

If Heljan owns it, presumably they will agree not to produce any models using it for a certain period of time, after when standard releases can be produced. This is, as I understand it, the way it works for the Bachmann 37 tooling. Heljan may even decide not to produce any models using the old tooling during the "embargo" period to ensure the demand was there when the new models appeared. Why wouldn't Heljan take it on? They are likely to sell far more units of a better model than an inferior one unless the inferior one was very much cheaper. And Heljan doesn't have a track record in that direction.

 

If RE owns it, then of course it can decide when or if further models are produced. But having paid for the tooling, would RE really "bin it" rather than seek to make money from it by producing further models in the future? Assuming the initial investment was recovered from the initial production runs, as I would expect them to plan, then it is only the production costs that need to be covered by sales of additional models.

 

I would expect the amount RE would have to pay for the new tooling etc. to be less if Heljan retained an interest in it than if did not, because when discussing costs RE could legitimately say that Heljan would also benefit financially by producing models from it in the future. On that basis, why would RE pay more for ownership of the tooling if it had already decided not to use it again in the future. That does not make economic sense. This is a commercial project for RE - to deliver something we all want, for which they should be applauded. Why should RE care whether Heljan produces more models from the tooling in the future provided the project has already been a financial success for RE unless it plans to make more money for itself? Would RE want to take the risk involved, for a higher initial outlay?

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Awesome, glad to see Rail Exclusive is keeping the good stuff coming. Those triple grey construction sector ones look great for starters! No exactly cheap @ £200 a pair though, but as they say you get what you pay for.

 

Well done Phil! wink.gif

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But I simply don't understand the statements that these will be the only models produced using the Rail Exclusive tooling. Making such a declaration now does not make economic sense unless it is to persuade us to buy now.

 

 

I think, as Martin observed earlier, that you have a definite talent for answering your own questionswink.gif

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I have been observing this thread with interest. It seems to me that RE and Heljan are perhaps 'shooting themselves in the foot', as the class 33/0 was a fairly numerous class, is quite popular as I understand it, and did manage to get around a bit off the home turf, so is not exactly region restricted. It simply does not deserve to be a somewhat restricted, and doubly expensive limited edition.

 

Plus, RE have chosen liveries and numbers that are at least in some ways restricted. I was (and continue to be) interested in a good model of the 33/0 in standard blue, but it would need to be possible to get more Eastleigh based examples. Only one in the blue two pack is Eastleigh based. Now of course it probably wouldn't be too hard to renumber the other one, but in limiting the number of blue examples to two specific ones, every other one purchased would need renumbering. That doesn't make much sense to me and I know I wouldn't want to have to do that to every new locomotive I buy.

 

As far as I can see it would be far more lucrative in the long term to have a proper production run. However, as it is right now I don't even have two pennies to rub together so it's all a bit academic, but I wouldn't be buying in this fashion even if I had the money.

 

The 33/0s deserve a decent quality, proper unlimited release.

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My memories of 33's include seeing Dutch ones running in pairs on Meldon workings, Railfreight Construction ones runing in pairs on Channel Tunnel workings so there is logic in selling them as pairs.

 

For me though, I have enough 33's (2x 33/0, 4x 33/1, 3x 33/2) mainly due to the Hattons bargains that were for sale last year. Will still be tempted when they come out though!

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Decided I am going to go for a pair of Construction ones and register interest in a possible Eastleigh and NSE version.

 

Totting up cost, it occurred to me that if I were to buy the depot plaques, nameplates and etched double arrows separately for two locos I would be looking at well over twenty quid plus for them so with them already being supplied, to me that makes the locos work out at about £85 each which is good value.

 

One slight spanner in the works thought, my current credit card runs out in July, can I risk holding on until my new card arrives before I place the order?

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Decided I am going to go for a pair of Construction ones and register interest in a possible Eastleigh and NSE version.

 

Totting up cost, it occurred to me that if I were to buy the depot plaques, nameplates and etched double arrows separately for two locos I would be looking at well over twenty quid plus for them so with them already being supplied, to me that makes the locos work out at about £85 each which is good value.

 

One slight spanner in the works thought, my current credit card runs out in July, can I risk holding on until my new card arrives before I place the order?

I would be pretty sure they would allow you to change your card details after you order. So don't let that stop you :)

 

I have often ordered items which take a long time to come to market and have to change cards while I am waiting. I will probably have changed my card more than once before for my order for D600 arrives.

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One slight spanner in the works thought, my current credit card runs out in July, can I risk holding on until my new card arrives before I place the order?

I too would have throught RE will happily take a pre-order now with the old card details, which you can update when the new card arrives. If not you could always phone the card company now and say that the chip has stopped working on your card (so you do not have to go through the rigmarole of a lost or stolen card). They will then send a new one now. I know someone who did that (NOT me) to avoid a card expiring whilst they were on a long holiday abroad ;)

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If not you could always phone the card company now and say that the chip has stopped working on your card (so you do not have to go through the rigmarole of a lost or stolen card). They will then send a new one now. I know someone who did that (NOT me) to avoid a card expiring whilst they were on a long holiday abroad ;)

I got a new card when I went to the bank to say how worn my card had become after a number of shop assistants had commented on it too; it was hard to read the numbers and it showed the effects of being in and out of ATMs and chip 'n' pin machines. They happily sorted a new card for me.

 

So no need for dishonesty at all :)

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The price per loco doesn't seem too bad for 'brand new tooling'. As it's a limited edition, rather than a special edition, the manufacturer agrees to never ressurect the production line, which would indicate RE own the new tools. And theres the added benefit that with this limited edition you don't have to be a plumber to buy one.

Sorry, but the RE webpage and its flyer say that they are Special Edition Models not limited editions. Also, limited editions are normally a predetermined number of models, whereas in this case the actual numbers made will be based on the number of pre-orders. And RE also say that the additional singletons will only be produced if there are enough expressions of interest. They don't say by when you have to express an interest, but I presume this will be the same date as for pre-orders of the twin packs so they can have one long production run of models, which are then decorated depending on the numbers of each that have been pre-ordered.

 

Finally, I have seen nowhere, except in a comment by Lyddrail, that Heljan has no plans to release their own versions and RE's flyer only says that "reruns are unlikely for the forseeable future, if at all". Nowhere in the RE announcement have I seen a statement that Heljan will never resurrect the production line. All references carefully say only "these" models. As we know from other manufacturers, a different loco number or a minor livery tweak is enough to be a different model. Understandably, neither RE nor Heljan are going to tell us what the contractual arrangements are, so we will have to wait and see what happens.

 

As far as the price is concerned, I think it's excellent value for two models considering what is being done.

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I wasn't sure whether to come back on this, because I don't want to appear negative about the project. I think it is a great idea and hope it is a success. But I simply don't understand the statements that these will be the only models produced using the Rail Exclusive tooling. Making such a declaration now does not make economic sense unless it is to persuade us to buy now.

Not sure if you got that idea from my post but I certainly don't think that would be guaranteed.

 

Obviously they wont commit to further models until these ones sell out well and they make their money back. Further batches would be profit after production costs indeed but they'd need to be pretty sure they could sell x thousand of them. If the initial ones don't sell then there probably wouldn't be a rerun from anyone.

 

For Heljan any sales using the existing tooling would be profit and people still seem to buy the things so I can't imagine them shelling out to help the new tooling. That is why I think Rail Exclusives would own it.

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....One slight spanner in the works thought, my current credit card runs out in July, can I risk holding on until my new card arrives before I place the order?

 

Depends if they're using the same system as the Olympic ticket booking process :lol:

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Whilst my username may give away my interest in all things '33', I certainly won't be rushing to buy any simply as money is tight; I have two Heljan 33's that look ok to me (I'm not whatever the diesel equivalent of a rivet counter is) and whilst I can understand someone wanting to upgrade from, say, the old Lima one as the difference would be noticeable, it's not so great to me from the Heljan one - which, rushing past at a scale 50mph from 2ft away you probably can't tell anyway.

 

I mentioned this to my other half yesterday as justification to place an order for the Taunton Cider cargowaggon, which although expensive as far as wagons go, is an acceptable purchase when i suggested to her the twin pack sound fitted 33's at £400.

 

I also, of course, need to figure out finishing a layout to run the 33's I already have on ... and strangely enough, paying for a wedding later this year is considered more important than expanding my already too large loco fleet according to her.

 

*shrug*

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Well, even though (like Pugsley), I'm not that bothered by the current 33/0 (I mean, it passes the Captain's 'Black 5' test... ;) ), I am sufficiently tempted by the prospect of a green SYE example and have sorted out a 'shared purchase' with someone else. Full marks to RE for doing this.

 

On the other hand, I'm extremely put out, dismayed, really upset and have wailed and gnashed my teeth a lot, over the fact that they haven't bothered to consult Somerset & Dorset enthusiasts, in order to get the correct numbers for the many 33s that worked regularly into Bath Green Park up until 1966.... ;) :P

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and strangely enough, paying for a wedding later this year is considered more important than expanding my already too large loco fleet according to her.

I think someone needs to sort their priorities out...

 

A wedding lasts for a day, models can last for years!

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... and strangely enough, paying for a wedding later this year is considered more important than expanding my already too large loco fleet according to her.

 

I think someone needs to sort their priorities out...

 

A wedding lasts for a day, models can last for years!

 

Surely the only option is to put the models on the wedding present list.

That way you get married, get the models....... and you don't have to pay for them.

Gloss the twin pack up as a his n hers model , someone will go for it lol :D

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I enquired about the sound option and this is the reply I got;

 

"The sounds are being provided by a very reputable source who has vast experience of Heljan products and ESU decoders. They will take full advantage of the new sound chip’s capability. All the usual and expected functions will be included and I can assure you that you will not be disappointed."

Howes then maybe ??

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A new 33/0 is pointless, especially at that sort of money. While I can see the shortcomings of the current tooling, it's hardly in the league of the original Bachmann 37 or 40 for being offensive to the eye.

 

I've got to agree with this and in these cash straightened times surely this is a recipie for commercial suicide.

 

Most people will have bought a large number of Heljan 33/0 's if they were ever likely to buy one ( they have been around for 6 or 7 years now ), and to expect them to just throw them away for a new loco is stupid.

 

Now a case for just producing replacement bodies seems much more sensible, but not at silly prices. And the number of liveries proposed is limited compared to what is possible, or wanted.

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A new 33/0 is pointless, especially at that sort of money.

My guess is that they will sell really well! A hundred isn't a huge amount really - RRPs of other ready to run diesels are that or more in some cases, and in real world terms on loco is only just more than a tank of petrol and just over half the cost of a tyre.

 

I wouldn't mind a DRS example but I don't know if I want it enough to spend the money when I have other projects which I should be getting on with!

 

While I can see the shortcomings of the current tooling, it's hardly in the league of the original Bachmann 37 or 40 for being offensive to the eye.

Before Bachmann's annoucement of revising their calss 40, I suspect that RE could have made an absolute killing on a fully accurate Class 40 model!

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I've got to agree with this and in these cash straightened times surely this is a recipie for commercial suicide.

I think RE will have done their home work and would have considered these "cash straightened times" as you put it before deciding to proceed with the project.

 

Most people will have bought a large number of Heljan 33/0 's if they were ever likely to buy one

What? Why assume people will buy a large amount if they are going to buy any?

I have one because thats what I needed, 2 new ones for me is no big deal if the spec is as they say it will be.

 

and to expect them to just throw them away for a new loco is stupid.

Again, what? Why imply RE expects people to throw away existing models, thats just nonsense !

 

they have been around for 6 or 7 years now

Due an update then ! :rolleyes:

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Surely the only option is to put the models on the wedding present list.

That way you get married, get the models....... and you don't have to pay for them.

Gloss the twin pack up as a his n hers model , someone will go for it lol :D

Nice idea. I did make the mistake of musing one day, in front of TFMP, whether a model shop would do a wedding list.

 

Suffice to say, it did not go down well!

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Hi Garry D100,

 

I enquired about the sound option and this is the reply I got;

 

"The sounds are being provided by a very reputable source who has vast experience of Heljan products and ESU decoders. They will take full advantage of the new sound chip’s capability. All the usual and expected functions will be included and I can assure you that you will not be disappointed."

Howes then maybe ??

 

I think you are most likely to be right there! Howes' 'programmer' has plenty of experience on these matters and is very enthusiastic about the whole sound subject. IF they have chosen him to help them with their enquiries ;) , then the sound should be just fine. Other sound programming companies are also available... :D (Well, it is Friday...!)

 

Thanks also, Garry D100, for bringing a useful/interesting new bit of information to the forum about these models.

 

Cheers,

Ixion.

 

P.S. cromptonnut - good luck with your wedding list! Who knows, after 7 years, you should celebrate the Anniversary with a request for a Class 07 to go with the 33s (assuming someone makes one by then)!!

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I thought Mr Sutton was employed by Heljan as UK consultant on the original 33/0 model, so he surely must take some responsibility for the flawed model. I believe this gives some explanation as to why Heljan were reluctant to accept his criticism in reviews.

 

If he is in charge of an upgraded model what assurances are there that history won't repeat itself ?

 

Heljan have just released an accurate 0 gauge model, so they clearly have the option to release an upgraded model in 4mm if they think they won't lose money on it, but they haven't.

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