New & Improved Class 33

[Pennine MC]

I thought Mr Sutton was employed by Heljan as UK consultant on the original 33/0 model, so he surely must take some responsibility for the flawed model.

 

There were certainly rumours to that effect, do you have any evidence though?

[James]

My understanding from sonversations I've had was that Phil/REx supplied Heljan with information for Heljan's design work. This, Jeremey, seems rather different from what you're saying/implying.

[Lyddrail]

Heljan are out to make money from their models, the 33/0 had major problems, many were happy to buy them, however, look at how quickly they were sold off cheap. Most of my fleet of 33/0s, 33/1s and 33/2s were obtained for no more than £50.00 each (many for far less) so they didn't make a huge hit with the market.

 

I have done up my models and am quite happy, but as I said before I would happily buy these RE 33/0s as I will obtain much better models for next to no extra modelling time. Will I scrap my existing 33/0s, no, I can still live with many of them, but I will not do all of them up as I would have had to.

 

What sets will I be after? See pic below for a scene I could model.

 

 

The RE website gives much info, but not seen it mentioned that the Dutch pair include different bodies, 33047 without headlights and aerials, 33046 with both.

 

There is no reason to believe RE will not do further twin packs and single locos if enough interest is shown as their handout states. I hope more are forthcoming (sorry if the handout is not widely out, but I received some recently).

 

Cheers.

[gelboy45]

I have read these many posts with interest. I only wish I was reading about a new and improved N scale model....

 

Gerry

 

;o)))

[BR Blue]

 

Heljan have just released an accurate 0 gauge model, so they clearly have the option to release an upgraded model in 4mm if they think they won't lose money on it, but they haven't.

 

I don't think the 0 gauge one is accurate, the shape of the cab roof has come in for criticism. However I agree, they could have released an accurate 00 33/0 using the same roof profile as the 33/1.

[Pennine MC]

... the 33/0 had major problems, many were happy to buy them, however, look at how quickly they were sold off cheap. Most of my fleet of 33/0s, 33/1s and 33/2s were obtained for no more than £50.00 each (many for far less) so they didn't make a huge hit with the market.

 

 

I'm afraid I just do not buy this standard argument that gets trotted out, that sales of a particular model have been held back solely by some heinous error. Peaks going cheap? - oh, it's because they havent got the nose seam. Mk2 coaches not selling? - oh, it'll be the error in the grey. It might put a few off, but the reasons are IMO usually more complex than that - only now are folk realising that the Mk2 vehicles slow to move are the excess of brakes produced.

 

Lots of the current crop of higher spec models - since the Hornby Q1 and possibly before - have ended up being sold cheaply due to diminished demand for one reason or another; it's just the way the market goes. In a lot of cases I believe it may even be factored in at the start; retailing is bursting with examples of overstocks, line-ends and less popular colours or whatever being liquidated to make room for new stocks, just as I could probably walk into Burtons today and buy a shirt for £15 or so that would have been nearer £30 in the autumn.

 

TBH Paul, by mentioning the 33/1 and 33/2 in the same breath here I think you even defeat your own argument, because the /1 and /2 subclasses didnt have the incorrect cant profile that's caused so much angst. Admittedly they might not be as *popular* as the standard machines, but that's a different issue and is only to be expected given their smaller numbers. The stablemate 26 and 27 can also be found cheaply, and yet nobody has yet illustrated that they have some fatal flaw that's responsible for this. In fact the Bachmann 24/25 range is surely a good illustration of all these points - widely regarded as the least satisfactory of 'current spec' diesels, only occasionally to be found on clearance and yet new batches are regularly introduced - it still sells...

[Ed-farms]

I received a letter from them today covering all the details that the website has. However there was 2 key differences - they put in the letter that all early pre-orders will be entered into a draw to win a driver experience on a preserved 33, they also have on the order form expressions of interest for single packs of NSE, EWS, BR Blue with grey roof and Eastleigh Green. Did anyone see mention of these two facts online?

[Lyddrail]

Pennine,

 

Sorry, I did not make myself clear. I was not trying to say the 33/0 errors hit sales in a big way, just that all the 33s were over produced or whatever as they didn't retain their higher price for long. Maybe batch sizes are just too big for the market? Hornby new spec DCC fitted 56s were sold off, likely miss judged demand for DCC fitted at the time.

 

I did buy less 33/0s than I might have, but I still have quite a few. I love the 33/2 and have over 12 of those, and several 33/1s. Due to my specific modelling 33s will always be required in large numbers.

 

I felt there were a lot of small mistakes on Heljan's 33s in general which I could mostly work around, I don't know if others did. Livery colours being wrong, e.g. too dark grey on Dutch, Distribution red/yellow symbols in the wrong places on 33/2s, most examples with wrong fuel tank moldings (strange as the correct moldings are on the same sprue), these things may have been down to lack of research or checking specifications.

 

These sort of errors should not be present with REs involvement on their 33s.

 

Cheers.

[bluex5]

I'm actually considering one of these packs now after seeing the website (based on my first post in this thread it makes me a shocking hypocrite). It's not the roof profile thats swayed me, but the rest of the spec, especially the etched grilles. My only worry is the same as that with the Dapol D1000 - so much of a deal has been made of it being the definitive model of the prototype that the buying public will not tolerate any compromises whatsoever, i.e. just being pretty good won't cut it.

[John M Upton]

...and just to tempt me even more, a certain Mr Sutton was handing out the leaflets for these to the advance queue moments before we were let into Ally Pally this morning!!!

[BR Blue]

I received a letter from them today covering all the details that the website has. However there was 2 key differences - they put in the letter that all early pre-orders will be entered into a draw to win a driver experience on a preserved 33, they also have on the order form expressions of interest for single packs of NSE, EWS, BR Blue with grey roof and Eastleigh Green. Did anyone see mention of these two facts online?

 

The single locos have been mentioned on this thread and are mentioned in the PDF on the Rail Exclusives website. I did not see mention of the driver experience however.

[LaGrange]

Its nice to see someone putting their money where their mouth is and commissioning a model, but as has been said before, will it bring on a new era of 'no compromise' models??

[Horsetan]

... will it bring on a new era of 'no compromise' models??

 

No.

[Jeremy]

Can someone post a link to reviews of the O gauge model?

 

I saw the pre-production samples at Telford last year and purchased a Tower Models Ltd Edition example. I realise it is an early livery on a late bodyshell, but that was a decision made by Tower Models, not Heljan.

[Jeremy]

 

these things may have been down to lack of research or checking specifications.

 

These sort of errors should not be present with REs involvement on their 33s.

 

Cheers.

 

I for one am not likely to place an advance order (especially at that price level) because I'm not convinced they're any less fallible in this respect.

 

If it can happen to Heljan, Bachmann, Ixion (and there are probably others as well on the Continent or the USA) it can happen to them to.

 

I'll wait until I see the finished article before I part with what is a significant sum for me.

[James]

I'll wait until I see the finished article before I part with what is a significant sum for me.

That's perhpas the one problem with the way Rail Exclusive operate; prior inspection of the finished product isn't always an option.

 

The price of a hundred per loco isn't too bad - in the latest Model Rail, a Heljan Baby Deltic was advertised by Heljan for 119 GBP so it then doesn't seem that high. I filled my car up earlier today and that was pushing 80 from the warning light threatening to appear!

[Garry D100]

I'll wait until I see the finished article before I part with what is a significant sum for me.

Thing is they are "made to order" so you might not be able to order by the time you see the finished product.

 

Website quote "They will be manufactured in low volume twin-packs to justify the investment involved and can be pre-ordered immediately, via our guaranteed ‘made-to-order’ reservation system "

[mike tugsandsheds]

In my opinion Rail Exclusive (nee Express) 's reputation speaks for itself

 

The DRS 37/5's and DBS 37 were excellent

 

Both Ltd Ed 60's were on the money 081 and 074

 

Fastline Class 66 is also excellent

 

I'm awaiting my 37/7's but from what I've seen they are equally as good so I'm happy to place an order for the 33's

[Jeremy]

In my opinion Rail Exclusive (nee Express) 's reputation speaks for itself

 

The DRS 37/5's and DBS 37 were excellent

 

Both Ltd Ed 60's were on the money 081 and 074

 

Fastline Class 66 is also excellent

 

I'm awaiting my 37/7's but from what I've seen they are equally as good so I'm happy to place an order for the 33's

 

Yes but these editions were all pre-existing or based upon pre-existing tooling. This is slightly different because we don't know who is responsible for producing the tooling or the moulding work ( I'm assuming they're going down the Chinese route ). The very fact that these models are drawn and detailed thousands of miles away, and that there is a Mandarin - English language barrier , where certain subtleties of the English Language are not easy to translate, worries me that things will get lost in translation. REs are now entering the world of trying to control a sub-contractor, and I speak from bitter experience in my normal line of work, that they will really have to keep their eye on the ball to avoid mistakes being made.

 

We were all lead to believe that Vi Trains Class 37's would be superior to the Bachmann offering, and in my opinion, they're not, and they have a much poorer mechanism and chassis fitted to-boot.

 

I also think that the Vi Trains Class 47 is worse than the Bachmann one, but Mr Sutton seems to think that they are the superior product - again I disagree because for me, reliability performance, and running qualities, are more important than the accuracy of the shape. For me the Heljan 47 is fine, because of it's bomb proof build quality and performance.

[Garry D100]

The very fact that these models are drawn and detailed thousands of miles away, and that there is a Mandarin - English language barrier , where certain subtleties of the English Language are not easy to translate, worries me that things will get lost in translation.

I don't know everything about the design/production process, but isn't this why pre production models are made to check for errors?

[Jeremy]

I don't know everything about the design/production process, but isn't this why pre production models are made to check for errors?

 

If you have time to do so, yes. The problem is that, unless you are fluent in Mandarin, or the supplier is fluent in English, mistakes can still slip through.

 

By the time pre-production samples are made it's far too late, the production tooling has already been machined in metal to produce these ( and for injection moulding these tools cost tens of thousands of pounds each ). The pre-production sample are exactly that PRE-PRODUCTION, not pre-tooling. So by that stage you are at the point of no return ( unless you can afford to throw away tens of thousands of pounds and produce new tooling to replace the erroneous first iteration ).

 

Most errors have to be corrected on the drawings, or the CAD model, at the critical design review, before tooling is started. And if all the detailed dimensions are in Chinese characters, I, as an English engineer, wouldn't have a clue as to what they meant!

[Garry D100]

By the time pre-production samples are made it's far too late, the production tooling has already been machined in metal to produce these ( and for injection moulding these tools cost tens of thousands of pounds each ). So by that stage you are at the point of no return.

Why is it then when you see preprod shots of models sometimes it states things will be corrected on the production model?

Is that simply because the manufacturer is prepared to spend the money retooling?

 

Questions questions, I just find the process interesting

 

Thanks.

Garry

[The Stationmaster]

I don't know everything about the design/production process, but isn't this why pre production models are made to check for errors?

 

I understand that there is a particular problem with the Chinese who don't like to lose face (to use the old-fashioned expression) by being told that they have got something not quite right - so they just keep on offering things back with any early errors which crept in. Thus there is a need - as other folk have found out - to be extremely detailed and, if necessary, very repetitive with specification detail and requirements and to keep on at them until any shortcomings are corrected (which they will be if the client is persistent enough so I'm told). The results will possibly be as indicative of a commissioner who is100%+ on top of the task as they will be of a manufacturer who is really good at what they are doing.

[Jeremy]

Why is it then when you see preprod shots of models sometimes it states things will be corrected on the production model?

Is that simply because the manufacturer is prepared to spend the money retooling?

 

Questions questions, I just find the process interesting

 

Thanks.

Garry

 

These are probably kit-built mock-ups, and not representative of the finished article ( the 4-CEP shown in Bachmann's early photographs was built from a DC Kits kit ). You can manufacture items in resin, using cheap rubber tooling, but the tooling will deteriorate every time it is used ( this is how people like OO Works, or Silver Fox, produce their limited production runs ). Basically you are making a locomotive shaped candle !

 

After a few hundred items this type of tooling is worn out - it is not suitable for manufacturing large batch sizes. This is why Bachmann and Hornby always specify a minimum quantity of around 500 for each limited edition. The accountants have told them that this is how many that they have to produce ( and sell ) to pay back the investment in the metal tooling ( and all the other things like raw material, labour costs, design and development, production of artwork for tampo printing the livery, but that's true for every model produced by them ).

[Garry D100]

These are probably kit-built mock-ups, and not representative of the finished article ( the 4-CEP shown in Bachmann's early photographs was built from a DC Kits kit ). You can manufacture items in resin, using cheap rubber tooling, but the tooling will deteriorate every time it is used ( this is how people like OO Works, or Silver Fox, produce their limited production runs ). Basically you are making a locomotive shaped candle !

 

After a few hundred items this type of tooling is worn out - it is not suitable for manufacturing large batch sizes. This is why Bachmann and Hornby always specify a minimum quantity of around 500 for each limited edition. The accountants have told them that this is how many that they have to produce ( and sell ) to pay back the investment in the metal tooling ( and all the other things like raw material, labour costs, design and development, production of artwork for tampo printing the livery, but that's true for every model produced by them ).

Thanks for the interesting information