RMweb Gold Steve Hewitt Posted March 23, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 23, 2011 Some time ago there was discussion about the value of working ground signals - were they worth the effort? I said then that I believed they were, so I'll document my current effort with the hope of showing its not too much effort, and the results are OK. I'm starting with the MSE kit for two GWR 16" disc signals - part number GS006/1. The kit comprises cast white metal signal bodies and lamps, with a small etch of the two discs, balance arms and back blinders. There is a piece of wire to form the pivots. I've found that good engineering of the pivots or bearings in any signal is a key requirement for good operation. In this case, I started by adding a short piece of 1/32" brass tubethrough the body casting as the bearing for the disc. This is slightly over-long at present. It will ensure the disc is clear of the body with room for the operating link to the balance arm to pass behind. The balance arm needs to have its pivot beefed up to ensure it moves only in the vertical plane. Any slop here would give a very wobbly movement. This is achieved by soldering two small washers, one each side, to the pivot. Similar washers are soldered over the holes for the operating links. The outer one is for the link to the servo motor, the inner one for the link to the signal disc. The next bearing is to support and guide the operating wire from the servo up through the baseboard and signals mounting plate. The signal will be installed using a brass tube under its mounting plate to ensure security. This is 5/16" dia and carries the bearing for the operating connection. The bearing is a length of 1/16" dia. brass tube, which will guide the operating wire's lower end which in turn will be soldered into a 1/32" brass tube. The telescopic feature of these brass tubes gives a very good range of bearing sizes which I use extensively in my signals. The basic assembly of the body to its foundation plate and attachment of the lamp is next. The lamp is a bit over scale, so the lens can't line up with the spectacle holes in the disc. I've filed some off the lamp body to mave it in a bit closer, but it's still a bit too far out. The signal disc is attached to its pivot, in this case a .45mm diam N/S plated brass pin. This is a good fit in the bearing. The back blinder has its mounting hole beefed up with a small length of 1/32" brass tube. This will make it much easier to mount accurately on the shaft at a later stage. A trial assembly to ensure it all works smoothly. Now its all to come apart for cleaning, polishing etc then into the paint shop. Steve. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
-missy- Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Hi Steve It looks really good so far. Little details like this are so easily overlooked but really make a difference to me. The light really needs to work though! Missy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
10800 Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Very useful Steve - Eridge has about a dozen of the little beggars to do (MSE also but BR(S) Westinghouse type). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Slattocks has a few to do of a lattice type open construction to L&Y practice . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted March 23, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 23, 2011 Slattocks has a few to do of a lattice type open construction to L&Y practice . Just mount them on posts Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Steve Hewitt Posted March 23, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 23, 2011 Very useful Steve - Eridge has about a dozen of the little beggars to do (MSE also but BR(S) Westinghouse type). Like this? I built these for a model of Gravesend. The "I" section post is an assembly of three etched bits, and the bearing has to be drilled front to back right through the web! The bearing for the balance arm is another use of 1/32" brass tube. You can see on this shot how the operating wire to the balance arm, and the connection to the disc are just one piece. Steve. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Steve Hewitt Posted March 23, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 23, 2011 Hi Steve It looks really good so far. Little details like this are so easily overlooked but really make a difference to me. The light really needs to work though! Missy Hi Missy, Working lights not part of the spec for these, but should be possible using fibre optics from a source below the baseboard. Having said that, the light would only be seen from a fairly "head on" vantage point, which is not often possible. Steve. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Just mount them on posts Not sure what you mean Dave? I'll check the prototype on Saturday for you as there has already been a test etch done. They were about the height of the ones shown here but an open square metal thing. edit: Handy coincidence reading the preservation area, I think its basically this type Those SR ones look great too Steve. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted March 24, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 24, 2011 This is on old GWR disc at Earlswood Lakes in 1978. Note the position relative to the points and the integral detector, which detects the closed switch when the points are reverse. Also the wire wheel is part of the whole unit. The WR went over to a tubular post with the fitting attached with u-bolts, but I am not sure when. There are still a few around so there may be some castings with dates on. The signal at Matlock is a standard LMS/BR(M) type. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted March 24, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 24, 2011 Not sure what you mean Dave? I'll check the prototype on Saturday for you as there has already been a test etch done. They were about the height of the ones shown here but an open square metal thing. edit: Handy coincidence reading the preservation area, I think its basically this type LYR ground signals were (also ?) mounted on posts Photo of a model I photographed this type at Bolton pre colour lights. As SignalEngineer says the signals in the link are BR/LMR standard ground signals Those SR ones look great too Steve. Agreed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Steve Hewitt Posted March 24, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 24, 2011 Back from the paintshop and re-assembled, its time for the operating bits to be put together. These signals are designed to be installed on 9mm baseboards, through a 5/16" hole. The servo is mounted on a little sub-board which uses the 5/16" brass tube to ensure good alignment. This shot from below should make things clear. I mentioned previously the operating wire and its bearing. Here are the parts: The visible wire is .3mm N/S, soldered into the 1/32" brass tube, which runs in the 1/16" tube in base of the signal. The 1/16" brass tube bent to a right angle is for the connection to the servo motor. The Embedded Controls unit is set to mid throw for both "On" and "Off" positions. This will set the servo to this safe position when all connected up and before making the connection to the signal. The operating wire is installed in the signal, and the disc set to "half way" between "On" and "Off". The connection to the servo can now be made. The relationship between the various parts of the linkage is adjusted and then soldered in place. Final task is to adjust theservo's throw to give the correct movement of the signal. Extremely easy with these controllers, use a small screwdriver in the "On" and "Off" adjusters. I'll add a short video clip to YouTube and add it to RMWeb later. (When I can remember how to do it!) Steve. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 LYR ground signals were (also ?) mounted on posts Photo of a model I photographed this type at Bolton pre colour lights. As SignalEngineer says the signals in the link are BR/LMR standard ground signals Oh ok then, I guess we were using LMS type then . A couple of those L&Y ones may give us something different though as well as looking a bit simpler. I'll save the page and discuss with the chaps on Saturday, thanks. Steve have you ever tried putting a weight on these so they hang at danger and the servo pushes them in one direction? The reason I ask is we wanted to be able to pull some of ours out for maintenance without fiddling underneath. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Steve Hewitt Posted March 24, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 24, 2011 Steve have you ever tried putting a weight on these so they hang at danger and the servo pushes them in one direction? The reason I ask is we wanted to be able to pull some of ours out for maintenance without fiddling underneath. Not weights, as our Club's boards can spend time in strange positions, on edge etc. Our "removeable" signals have a sprung plunger in the base, which rests on the servo arm - like a cam and follower. The signals are easily removed for storage, transport etc. They locate in a similar way, but use telescopic tubes for ease of insertion/extraction and are retained in place by a small screw. Steve. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Steve Hewitt Posted March 24, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 24, 2011 I'll add a short video clip to YouTube and add it to RMWeb later. (When I can remember how to do it!) Steve. I hope these video clips show that the effort was worth it. Steve. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted March 24, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 24, 2011 Nice job there Steve. Your next mission is to make a working LNWR miniature arm shunt signal Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Steve Hewitt Posted March 24, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 24, 2011 Nice job there Steve. Your next mission is to make a working LNWR miniature arm shunt signal I'm waiting for the etches to be produced. It will be a double arm version for Liverpool Lime Street. It will be working and lit. Steve. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted March 24, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 24, 2011 I'm waiting for the etches to be produced. It will be a double arm version for Liverpool Lime Street. It will be working and lit. Steve. Splendid - I look forward to that, I own a real one B) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim V Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 Working ground signals are worth the effort, especially when they are used as in the prototype to prove the route. You say 16" disc, have you checked the disc is in fact 16" (1'4") in diameter? The last time I checked the MSE kit, it only had a 12" disc in the etch. You can just see my 16" disc in the top right hand corner of this picture - from the rear. I had to make a new disc for my model. By the way all the ground signals work and are used on my model. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted March 24, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 24, 2011 Working ground signals are worth the effort, especially when they are used as in the prototype to prove the route. Tim - have you made working detection in 4mm ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim V Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 Proper detection isn't possible in 4mm, but I use a microswitch activated by the crank on the turnout operating unit, not just one of the switches in the point motor. That would only prove the motor had worked, not that the point had thrown. By running the power to the signal through the switch, if the point has thrown correctly, the signal will go off. As on the prototype, if the signal won't go off, investigation is needed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted March 24, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 24, 2011 Proper detection isn't possible in 4mm, but I use a microswitch activated by the crank on the turnout operating unit, not just one of the switches in the point motor. That would only prove the motor had worked, not that the point had thrown. By running the power to the signal through the switch, if the point has thrown correctly, the signal will go off. As on the prototype, if the signal won't go off, investigation is needed. We are wandering off Steves topic - how does that cope with the blades detaching from the tiebar, which is the most common problem I've seen on our layouts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted March 24, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 24, 2011 Nice job there Steve. Your next mission is to make a working LNWR miniature arm shunt signal How about an LNW rotating one? IIRC at least one survived under the wires at Littletons Colliery SF. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 I'm waiting for the etches to be produced. It will be a double arm version for Liverpool Lime Street. It will be working and lit. Steve. Steve, are these etches a commercial project. I may need some for the extension to London Road (when our signalling expert tells me what's wanted). Jol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Steve Hewitt Posted March 25, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 25, 2011 Steve, are these etches a commercial project. I may need some for the extension to London Road (when our signalling expert tells me what's wanted). Jol Yes, they should be. I can't say any more at present, but I will be chasing the supplier for a progress report shortly. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
10800 Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Like this? I built these for a model of Gravesend. That's the ones Steve - very nice, thanks for the pics Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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