Eastwood Town - A tribute to Gordon's modelling.

[Andrew P]

Hi Gordon, Just to prove I do pop in, I bought a coil of 20 meter LED Super Bright lights for a loft project I was starting last week, just a single UK plug and switch and the lighting was fantastic considering I didn't even get as far as fitting it up before abandoning the project after another heart scare whilst climbing about in the loft.

 

 

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by Andrew P

[martin_wynne]

47 minutes ago, Alister_G said:

I would take issue with this Martin, whilst it may be true for full-fat DSLRs, the majority of compact digital cameras require much more light than would be required for normal viewing, possibly due to limitations of lens optics, sensor size, and camera software.

 

For those wanting to take good close-up photographs down at track level, and therefore using small cameras or mobile phones, the more light the better.

 

 

Hi Al,

 

Well maybe for mobile phones, you can't really call those proper cameras with full controls.

 

But as far as I know, Gordon has a Fuji XF10 compact. I just checked online and the ISO will go up to 12800. With the aperture stopped down to f/16 for maximum depth of field, the shutter speed will be maybe between 1/4 second and a couple of seconds in dim room lighting. With the camera resting on a bean bag on the tracks, and using the self-timer, the results will be great. Much better than flooding the model with light and losing any shadows.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[gordon s]

Thanks Andy. Sorry to read about your heart scare. I hope you are making a full recovery. Just take it very easy....

 

I’m glad they have worked for you and Kevin. I can certainly see all the advantages, but now I’ve read a lot more, I have a couple of unanswered questions. I fully appreciate my concerns are probably without substance, but I seem to have become risk averse after all these years. No idea why.......

 

The first thing is putting mains through led substrate and then fixing it in accessible areas around the layout. I know we all have mains lighting and mains power supplies around a layout, but that’s generally obvious to the eye with thick cabling and earthed appliances. Having thin and cuttable pcb substrate with mains running through all seems a bit scary to me. I know you can get low voltage systems (I have them in my kitchen) but the led density and brightness seem to be of lower levels. It just reminds me of cheap Christmas lights back in the 50’s with 12v bulbs wired in series to the mains.....

 

The second question is the heat generated by super bright led’s and the recommendation they are mounted on aluminium channel made for these types of leds. Normal led tape appears to fit into 12mm channel, but the super bright strip is 18mm wide and if course you need a much wider extrusion with a higher cost, typically £7 per metre.

 

Once you add the channel into the cost equation, it becomes similar if not higher than led batten lights and with around 24m to illuminate costs rise rapidly. I’ve yet to find how the aluminium strip is earthed with mains led’s running through it.

 

I’m sure my concerns are unfounded, but with no cost advantage (unless you compromise on the heat issue by not fitting the aluminium channel), I’ll probably go with conventional led battens.

 

Maybe I’ll regret it, who knows.....

Edited November 13, 2020 by gordon s

[PMP]

You’ll be more than ok with LED light battens, see attached.

 

I never had any issues using LED tape attached to wooden battens and neither have any friends that have used them, however those have had plenty of space above them. 

 

The big issue with LED tape is that if there’s no diffuser on them you get reflections of each LED on rail heads where they align at a similar angle, which can give a very distracting ‘dash dot dash’ appearance to the rails. I’d try and angle the battens to a 60 to 45 degree angle to the flat baseboard datum, which will allow some  light under the running boards.

Edited November 13, 2020 by PMP

[gordon s]

Thanks PMP, that sounds perfect as the roof slopes behind two of the main runs down each side of the room. I have to negotiate three opening windows, but played around with a spirit level today and took a line vertically from the front edge of the station baseboard.

 

I plan to use 90 degree brackets off a wooden batten around 2’ above rail level. The batten will run right along the wall and across the two window openings and with a small compromise, the lights will sit just inboard of the front edge vertically and still allow the windows to swivel to horizontal.
 

The big bonus of mounting the lights at 90 degrees to the roof slope is that they will effectively point across the layout parallel to the roof slope as you suggest. I must admit I hadn’t thought of the reflection issues, so your comment has made me happy the mounting will be at the best angle.

 

I’ve gone for three 5’ battens each side and a single across each end, so the daylight led’s should supply enough light without being overpowering. 

 

Your pics look great and exactly what I hope to achieve. 

[PMP]

You’re welcome Gordon, the dash reflection happens with the tape where there’s no cover to diffuse it. If your battens have a diffuser like typical kitchen cabinet under lighting, you’ll be fine. Mine are 240v and come with linking cables and a standard 3 pin plug. Each batten has its own on/off switch. If you aim for 4000-5000k illumination you should be ok.

Edited November 13, 2020 by PMP

[gordon s]

Very similar...

 

Tried the 4’ ones, but 5’ gave more light and covered most of the station from one fitting.

 

https://www.screwfix.com/p/twin-5ft-led-batten-white-45w-4000lm/5440r

[Kylestrome]

On 11/11/2020 at 20:43, martin_wynne said:

To make something approaching model sunlight ...

 

... you need something like this:

https://petapixel.com/2020/11/02/how-to-build-a-fake-sun-that-looks-unbelievably-realistic/

 

David

[gordon s]

I’m glad he built a smaller version as the 500W water cooled LED and 4’ satellite dish might just get in the way......

 

I thought at one point he was building a Death Star. Switch that on and the Police would be round in case I was trying to dazzle pilots......

[Barry O]

Gordon, I am reading this with interest. During our loft conversion We had 6 ceiling lights fitted thinking that would be fine.. err nope!

I want someting which doesn't leave a mark on the ceiling so a framework will be required to hang the LED Strips off. 

 

I tried some LED "tape" but, apart from the ability to turn it into disco lighting using a handy gismo which cam with it..I may look for something a bit stronger light wise.

 

Baz

[gordon s]

From the pics I have seen, Baz, our two rooms are very similar, so I’m sure we’ll face the same issues. Today will be very much an experimental day as like you I don’t really want loads of holes in the walls or the trims around the Velux windows. I think the wooden battens down each side attached to the roof slope will work, even allowing the windows to centre swivel and open to the horizontal.
 

Each end may require a different solution and here I may use a plywood diffuser box suspended on chains from the raised ceiling, but I’m sure once the sides go in, all will become clear.

 

Whatever solution evolves, it will be a huge step forward as the current lighting is dire and it really puts me off working in winter evenings or gloomy overcast days.

 

Onward and upward......j

[BoD]

1 hour ago, Barry O said:

We had 6 ceiling lights

6 ceiling lights?

Luxury

We used to live in.....

 

Seriously, I have just one light fitting in the middle which is totally inadequate and I knew it would need addressing sooner or later,  so I too am watching your experiments with interest.

[Kylestrome]

1 hour ago, gordon s said:

Whatever solution evolves, it will be a huge step forward as the current lighting is dire and it really puts me off working in winter evenings or gloomy overcast days.

 

I have daylight fluorescent tubes lighting my layout. OK, it’s ‘old’ technology, but the 6500k colour temperature always gets me in a good mood on grey days.

 

David

Edited November 14, 2020 by Kylestrome

[eldavo]

LED battens would be my choice Gordon. We used them on the Winchester club's Redbridge layout hung about 3'6" above the boards and they give very good even lighting.

 

Cheers

Dave

 

[hayfield]

Gordon

 

When we had a new kitchen fitted my wife had to have one of those walk in cupboards, the one in the show room had LED tape lights inside. Rather than buy the retailers brand our electrician obtained one 5/6 meters long from the electrical wholesalers and it worked from its own transformer (12V ?). It lights up the whole L shaped unit excellently and being 12v completely safe. Its a case of the correct item for the problem in hand, so may not be as good in other situations

 

 

[Barry O]

We have used LED "cables" for lighting Chapel en Le Frith. I f you get board switching them onto "disco" gets peoples attention pdq!

 

Baz

[bigwordsmith]

Apologies for the mess, but this shows the effectiveness of LED strips = I found they worked really well, as you can see its a very even spread of light with no odd reflections off the rails, and when we moved I just peeled them off without damaging the ceiling paintwork

 

[Barry O]

what did you fasten them onto the ceiling with please?

 

baz

[bigwordsmith]

20 minutes ago, Barry O said:

what did you fasten them onto the ceiling with please?

 

baz

 

They have a sticky back so it just stuck to the paint.

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, Kylestrome said:

 

I have daylight fluorescent tubes lighting my layout. OK, it’s ‘old’ technology, but the 6500k colour temperature always gets me in a good mood on grey days.

 

David

When I had my railway room (the council thinks it's a garage) built, my electrician friend - who is also a railway modeller - tried to persuade me to fit LED downlights. I insisted on daylight fluorescent tubes, which provide a very bright and even light. After the room was finished, he acknowledged that I'd made the right choice.

 

As some here know, the room is 7m x 6m and I have eight 4ft tubes mounted in pairs and evenly spaced, parallel to the short axis (apologies for mixing metric and imperial units!).

[gordon s]

Well, so far so good....

 

Lashed up some old shuttering ply across the window to form a trough. I've spaced the backplate away from the wall to clear the Velux surrounds and you can still open the window a reasonable amount for through draught in the summer. It will all be painted inside and out once I can prove the theory.

 

 

 

I've only added one 5' tube at this point and have yet to add a front fascia. There will be another two tubes over this side of the layout to cover the whole 18' length. Each end of the station curves away, so they don't need to cover the full length.

 

 

Comparing the before and after is interesting. The existing down lights are standard not led's and as such appear much warmer. Of course my camera is probably playing around with the white balance, so it's not a true comparison.

 

Old lighting....

 

 

....and the new with just one tube.....

 

 

Needless to say, the lighting is so much more even across the whole platform length and will be a big improvement overall. The two shots above both used F2 but the shutter speed on the first was 1/30 second whereas the second was 1/160, so a huge difference as you would expect.

 

Downside? I've whacked my forehead on the front of the fascia several times......Ouch!

 

Of course, I'm 6'3", so others may not have a problem. I will experiment to see how to resolve this as it may well be I can narrow the depth of the fascia or lift it slightly. If not, I'll wear a hard hat.......

Edited November 14, 2020 by gordon s

[PMP]

Re the fascia, a good commercial sign printer will have foamboard. I’d suggest getting some 3mm, it’s light  and if you use Industrial Velcro it’ll stay on with no problem. It’s opaque and if you head butt it it doesn’t hurt. 

 

One element you might notice is the colour balance and tones on your models has changed due to the lighting. If practical make your workbench the same light value as the strips, then any painting you do will match the colour values of the layout. If you’re unable to match the layout value, make the workbench natural daylight ‘heat’, that’ll then minimise any discrepancy. If with the new lighting any existing weathered stock looks more vivid or subdued, that’ll be the reason.

Edited November 14, 2020 by PMP
Addition

[polybear]

7 hours ago, gordon s said:

....and the new with just one tube.....

 

 

 

 

Thanks Gordon - I think one of those tubes above my workbench would work wonders, though if it were dimmable too that would be a real bonus.

Do they give off much in the way of heat?

 

[gordon s]

The spec says they are non dimmable, but then they aren’t particularly expensive. Heat wise, they do appear to get warm, but the spec says up to 25,000 hours, so I would have thought they would have incorporated a heat sink somewhere within the plastic case. To be honest, I haven’t had one on long enough to see if it’s an issue, but I can’t see Screwfix selling anything if it was a problem.

 

Fitted the second tube in place and it’s a huge improvement. Still a fair bit of tweaking to do, but overall no regrets...

 

 

 

[BoD]

It looks very effective but a couple of questions if I may.

Are these 240V and if so, how are you wiring them in?

How do they compare, brightness wise, to ordinary fluorescent tubes. I mean how much higher do you think you could install them to increase the coverage but remain bright enough*

 

 

* Don’t bother applying the inverse square laws, a gut feeling will do.  
 

 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2020 by BoD