RMweb Premium New Haven Neil Posted January 13, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 13, 2021 Very pleased to hear your news, Gordon. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post gordon s Posted January 13, 2021 Author Popular Post Share Posted January 13, 2021 (edited) Morning all....Thanks for your best wishes. I really don't want this to become a health thread, but sadly we lost my BiL to liver cancer last night. As I said he had been unwell for months, so whilst we're sad for his family we all know he is now at peace and no longer suffering. Also heard this morning that my son was taken into hospital with Covid, so fingers crossed he'll be OK. 'Scuse me whilst I go outside and scream... I'm hoping to get stuck in again today. The paper plan has been overlaid and I can probably get away with the same sub board once stripped of all the track and underlay. Bit of a pain as it will mean no running for a week or two, but it has to be done. It's probable I won't be able to use the existing crossover as shunting it round the curve changes the radius. Oh to have standard Peco pointwork, where you could pick it up and plonk it down to your heart's content..... I will have to stay with turnouts as I now have the mimic panel finished and whilst I could probably incorporate a diamond, the benefits are not really there as the crossover in question has multiple options in terms of in and out of ET which would be negated with a crossing. Of course a slip could be an option, but then I'm back into changing the mimic panel, so I'll just accept the compromise at this stage. Several of you have suggested Marcway strip and I have used it in the past. At that time the width was inconsistent, but clearly things have improved, so may well be worth a try if cutting my own strip is still problematical in terms of width control and burrs. At least it's not all doom and gloom. Spurs have a chance to win the cup with a 1 in the year... Edited January 13, 2021 by gordon s 31 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
simontaylor484 Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 Sorry to hear of your troubles Gordon and please accept my sympathies Simon 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted January 13, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 13, 2021 I had forgotten that you had already built your mimic panel and it took you a lot longer to sort that, than it will to build a new board with new trackwork. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium St Enodoc Posted January 13, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 13, 2021 9 hours ago, gordon s said: Spurs have a chance to win the cup with a 1 in the year About time we did that again. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post gordon s Posted January 30, 2021 Author Popular Post Share Posted January 30, 2021 Evening all..... Although I've been lurking around in odd threads over the last two weeks, my posts were from hospital rather than home. Since the 13th, I've been back in twice to have stents fitted in my bile ducts which may solve the problem or at least provide an interim solution to my soaring bilirubin levels. I was dreading the procedure based on a previous experience, but so very glad to say I was sedated and never felt a thing when they stuck 3' of camera tube down my throat and then managed to slide a 120mm stent backwards into each bile duct. I can only stand in awe at the skills and technology required to even consider such a thing. Still not 100%, but hopefully I will certainly be better than before in a week or two and at least having taken some scrapings from the bile ducts they may be able to determine the cause of the problem. The good news is that whilst I was away, Marcway delivered 90' of 4mm strip for more crossover building. I just have one more to complete and then it will be a case of lifting old track work and fitting the new. That really is the last job on the main circuits and I was happy to get upstairs again today to start visualising some of the scenic elements. As it stands ET is a four track test circuit where trains just trundle around smoothly and quietly. I'm so pleased I took a lot of time setting up the boards and track carefully at the outset as everything just runs with no sign of hesitation or stalling. The track hasn't been cleaned for weeks, but it just works. Taking a leaf from Barry's instruction to test, test, test, I plonked some random stock on the circuits and happily ran four trains for an hour or so. Of course these have had little work done to them, but that can wait until the main circuits are completed and signed off. Note to self....I must stop parking locos on platforms.... 20 2 15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Barry O Posted January 30, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 30, 2021 Very nice Gordon! Hope the medics have sorted your problem out. The trains were running well.. but more testing of all stock will be required! Baz 2 3 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 Glad to hear the medics are working their miracles with you and that you are feeling better, keep safe and well 1 3 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post gordon s Posted January 31, 2021 Author Popular Post Share Posted January 31, 2021 (edited) Morning all...Glad to say things are looking up and hopefully I've turned a corner of sorts..... Talking of turning corners, I've made a start on the last crossover and whilst building it realised that over the years I have changed my way of building pcb turnouts, so here's a few pics of this mornings work. Starting point is my Templot print for the large C10 crossover. I use pre cut sleepers for normal timbers and have now changed to Marcway/SMP single sided 4mm strip for all turnout timbers. I use a low tack double sided tape to hold them in place as it's very easy to adjust them slightly as you go along. First job is to fit all the plain timbers and interleave them around the crossings. I have a small Proxxon saw to cut all the main timbers to length and being single sided there is no need to gap the rear to prevent shorts. Some see soldering as a bit of a black art, but providing you have clean joint surfaces and a good quality iron with plenty of heat, the solder should just flow into the joint. I use a multicore 60/40 solder from RS. I have tried Hydrox solder, but didn't like the smell it gave off and it seemed to have a watery flow when heat was applied. It will get used, but not on pointwork. Even though these are new strips from Marcway, I always give them a good scrub with a fibre glass pencil to remove any surface film. There are loads of ways of building turnouts and I guess we have our way of doing things. Mine is slightly different in terms of the order of build, but it suits me and seems to work well. First job is to file the V using the tried and trusted EMGS filing jigs. I bought a pair of these years ago and they have been used ever since. Well worth the money and they make the job very easy. The jig for crossing angles 5,6,7 & 8 is much smaller, but rarely gets used on ET as most of my pointwork is C10 or D12. Once filed to the correct shape, I solder the half vee directly to the sleepers and then file the other half and repeat. I like to solder the whole vee to the pcb strip, so very carefully apply a tiny drop of solder to the blunt nose tip for electrical continuity. Once the vee is in place, add the wing rails and use the 1mm shim to set them correctly for 00SF. These are simply made from short lengths of rail. Place in position to get the flare position and solder. Using the same shim, you can align this along the rail to determine the knuckle bend position. Repeat the process the other side and you will have most of the crossing completed. I tend to go off piste at this point as I realise the dimensions in the crossing area really are critical, so I fit the check rails, long before the outer rails. I find it allows me plenty of space to set them correctly and in any case the dimensions to the outer rails are not that critical. The position of the check rails is accurately set using the 00SF gauges. Despite appearances to the contrary, the check rails are in the correct position and not out from the drawing. I guess it's simply an optical illusion.... As this is a crossover, I use continual rail from one vee to the other, preferring to build the whole thing in one go. This means the second vee is now filed up and fixed in position. This is then correctly gauged to 16.2mm right through the whole crossover with the change to 16.5mm limited to the last two or three sleepers on the plain track. Eventually you should end up with something that looks like this. The 1mm shim and 16.2mm gauges are both used to accurately space the outer rails. Close up photography can be cruel, so before this crossover is prepared for painting, I will check all the solder joints to ensure they are all 100%. The final test I have is an Bachmann chassis with Markits wheels. This uses a relatively tight side play 0-6-0 set up and before I push on with the switch rails etc, my goal is to push this test chassis through the crossing and not to be feel any sign of the crossing at all. I hope you found this useful. Just a simple method that works for me. A full C10 crossover takes me around 3-4 hours to complete from scratch and personally, I find it quite therapeutic as concentrating on the build shuts out everything else.... To be continued.... Edited January 31, 2021 by gordon s 7 6 15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted January 31, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 31, 2021 Hi Gordon, Glad to hear that your surgery was a success and I wish you well, with your ongoing convalescence. I hope that the biopsy results are also favourable. Great turnout building as per normal, the only difference between your method and mine, is that I gap the sleepers and test them with a meter before I start soldering the rail to them. I find it takes less time to find unsolicited shorts, due to a whisp of copper across a gap. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted January 31, 2021 Author Share Posted January 31, 2021 (edited) That all makes sense....but when did common sense win over force of habit...... I gap all mine when I’ve finished using the edge of a slitting disc in my Proxxon drill. I make all the cuts as close to the inner rail as I can, the idea being it’s harder to see inside the layout and your eye is naturally drawn down the centre line of the two rails. I know the gaps should be filled, but find by offsetting them they almost become invisible once filled with paint. It’s back to what level of compromise you can accept and the return on time invested. Edit: Forgot to say I split the gapping to make life simple. First isolate the frogs on both turnouts and then test for any continuity between the outer rails and the central crossing areas. Only once you test both crossings and have no continuity, do I slit the remainder. This splits the whole testing for shorts into manageable chunks and will save a lot of time in the long run. I did have an issue a few months ago where the sleepers were interleaved and I eventually found it was one sleeper touching both rails inside the supposed isolated part of the crossing. I have now moved the isolation cuts in the rails further away from the interleaved section and that solved the problem completely. Edited January 31, 2021 by gordon s 4 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tender Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 2 hours ago, gordon s said: Once the vee is in place, add the wing rails and use the 1mm shim to set them correctly for 00SF. These are simply made from short lengths of rail. Place in position to get the flare position and solder. Using the same shim, you can align this along the rail to determine the knuckle bend position. Looking at the above picture am i right in assuming that you bend the knuckle once soldered in place? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted January 31, 2021 Author Share Posted January 31, 2021 (edited) 51 minutes ago, tender said: Looking at the above picture am i right in assuming that you bend the knuckle once soldered in place? Yes I do. The picture is slightly misleading as I took it before soldering the third joint just above the knuckle bend. It’s then very simple to align the shim along the crossing vee and then use a small pair of long nose pliers to make the bend in line with the drawing. Once the knuckle angle is set correctly, I solder the remaining two joints and then repeat the process with the second wing rail. Here I turn the shim to a vertical position where is acts as both the 1mm clearance for the wing rail and then doubles up to indicate the bend position. Of course the drawing is only a guide as every piece of rail is set using gauges. I’m sure it’s been said many times before, the knuckle bend is not a sharp bend, so doing it in situ provides a smooth knuckle that accurately guides the wheels in or out of the crossing. Edited January 31, 2021 by gordon s 8 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted January 31, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 31, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, gordon s said: I’m sure it’s been said many times before, the knuckle bend is not a sharp bend, so doing it in situ provides a smooth knuckle that accurately guides the wheels in or out of the crossing. Hi Gordon, Yes. The centre of the knuckle bend and the ends of the knuckle bend radius are marked on the Templot templates, but how you get there is up to you. It is always worth printing a duplicate copy of the template so that you can refer to details obscured by the timbers. But the actual bend radius, bend angle, and knuckle position are not critical. The three critical factors are -- the rails at the wing rail front must align with the vee rails; the flangeway gap must be correct alongside the nose of the vee; the flangeway gap must not be less than that anywhere else. The knuckle bend radius can be customized in Templot. Here is a much longer knuckle bend, as used by some pre-group companies such as the NER. It works fine: cheers, Martin. Edited January 31, 2021 by martin_wynne 1 1 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium polybear Posted January 31, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 31, 2021 Hi Gordon, How do you find the Marcway timbers now? ISTR that some time ago you mentioned that the edges weren't as nice as C&L, and the width could be a bit variable? Thanks Brian p.s Good to see that medical matters appear to be going well 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted January 31, 2021 Author Share Posted January 31, 2021 (edited) Very good indeed. They have completely changed their manufacturing process and they now use a similar technique to their range of pre cut sleepers. There are 100 sleepers per sheet or 25 4mm pcb strips. They are easily broken away from the surround and all the edges are sharp. One thing I did notice is that the pcb strips are 1.2mm and the pre cut sleepers 1.45mm. No idea why, but as that’s just 0.25mm or 10 thou, it doesn’t appear an issue. All are single sided fibre glass. Price wise, they are excellent at £13.50 for 18’ of strip. This was the pricing when the strips were separate, so by my reckoning, a sheet of 25 would be £18.75. Postage at £9.00 seemed a little on the high side, particularly as it came via Hermes, but the price of the strips was excellent so I just accepted it as part of the overall cost. I would certainly use them again...... Edited February 1, 2021 by gordon s 7 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post gordon s Posted February 1, 2021 Author Popular Post Share Posted February 1, 2021 (edited) OK, just to finish this build, here are a few more pics from this afternoon. At some point you have to transition from 16.5mm to connect to whichever flexible track you are using. Years ago I used to make that change within the turnout, but soon learnt the error of my ways, so I use 16.2mm gauges throughout and only make the transition to 16.5mm in the last 30mm or so. Typically like this... Once both crossings are complete there are four point blades that require filing. Martin has very kindly supplied planing lengths within Templot, so I use a very simple jig with a ratchet clamp to hold the rail in place and use a large file to create the shape. I file one side flat first, remove it from the jig and pull in back in line before turning it over and then filing the other side to the required planing length. John (Hayfield) has clearly shown this before, but the route that curves away, does require a set bend in the rail and then a short straight section before curving away. The positions of these are shown on the Templot diagram. Last job in the build is to attach the tie rod. For years I have used a PCB strip and have never had one come apart as I use Tortoise motors that generate no shock whatsoever on the blades. From the common crossing I solder back 12 sleepers towards the tie bar which leave loads of flexibility remaining in the blades. I do use a shim of card/paper under the blades when I solder to just raise the blades a few thou and remove any drag on the blades when they move across. This lifts the blade a few thou above the rail, but a few strokes with a needle file across the top of the blades allows them to sit snugly and provide a smooth change of direction. The 20p coin is perfect for spacing the blade away from the stock rail. In essence, that's it, job done......apart from the electrical gapping, a good scrub in hot soapy water and a coat of red oxide primer plus track colour. Disclaimer: I said at the outset, there are many ways to build pointwork. This method works for me, but I fully accept I make compromises and the finished article is not a scale representation of a C10 crossover. For a start there are no chairs...... It is just a way to generate free flowing pointwork which in itself offers loads of flexibility in layout design. I would rather have smooth running quality any day over poorly built chaired pointwork. Every time I look at Hornsey Broadway, I'm taken in by the whole scene and had never noticed Kier uses pcb turnouts on his wonderful layout. I probably still wouldn’t have noticed if he hadn't mentioned it a year or so ago. If I can get a finished product anywhere near that standard, I will be a very happy man. Up until a few years ago, I had never built a turnout and never believed I could. Go on, give it a try. You really only need a few gauges and a bit of patience. Turn on the radio and enjoy........ Edited February 1, 2021 by gordon s 10 2 1 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Rowsley17D Posted February 1, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 1, 2021 Couldn't agree more with your sentiments about having a go, Gordon. My first hand-built was copper-clad using a set of wagon wheels as a gauge! It was never meant for a layout, it was just to see what I could do. I went down the chaired track way but have never regretted building my own as I could have never built my current layout as it's all curved point-work. Hope you don't mind a photo. 10 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted February 1, 2021 Author Share Posted February 1, 2021 Mind? Not at all. Pictures of hand built track are always welcome here..... Some beautiful flowing curves Jonathan, that really can only be done with hand construction and Templot. There was another reason why I stayed with pcb construction and that was the sheer number of turnouts within ET. I’m guessing the final plan has over 70 turnouts and whilst I have built one chaired turnout before, the sheer learning curve to quickly and accurately build that number of turnouts meant I took the easy option. Knowing that Hornsey Broadway used pcb pointwork and I had never noticed before, just confirmed the decision was the right one for me. 5 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted February 1, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 1, 2021 Looks good Gordon. Just a reminder that the 20p coin is for 16.2mm gauge and EM. For anyone building 16.5mm gauge you need a bit more blade opening -- an unworn 10p coin is about right. Exact scale (1.42mm) would be about 80% of a 20p coin, so it's nearer to scale than a lot of other things on a layout. Martin. 1 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted February 1, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 1, 2021 1 hour ago, martin_wynne said: Looks good Gordon. Just a reminder that the 20p coin is for 16.2mm gauge and EM. , or a beer mat. Mike. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Regularity Posted February 1, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 1, 2021 2 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said: , or a beer mat. Mike. Wet or dry? They tend to swell up a bit. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium St Enodoc Posted February 2, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 2, 2021 7 hours ago, gordon s said: I file one side flat first, remove it from the jig and pull in back in line before turning it over and then filing the other side to the required planing length. You seem to have filed the foot off the inside of the rail too. Was that intentional? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted February 2, 2021 Author Share Posted February 2, 2021 Totally intentional as I didn’t know any different...... I refer my honourable colleague to my ‘Disclaimer’ statement, but will see if it can be done. Thinking about it, the rail end would be hidden within the solder blob holding the rail to the tie bar, so perhaps the effort may not be worthwhile from normal viewing distances anyway...... 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium St Enodoc Posted February 2, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 2, 2021 3 minutes ago, gordon s said: Totally intentional as I didn’t know any different...... I refer my honourable colleague to my ‘Disclaimer’ statement, but will see if it can be done. Thinking about it, the rail end would be hidden within the solder blob holding the rail to the tie bar, so perhaps the effort may not be worthwhile from normal viewing distances anyway...... It's not so much for viewing, it's to give the blade a bit more strength at the end. I'm sure @Martin Wynne or @hayfield can explain better than I. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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