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Eastwood Town - A tribute to Gordon's modelling.


gordon s
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Hi Gordon, you said this earler:

 

On 29/07/2020 at 16:19, gordon s said:

I could do a formula in Excel with 'IF' but that doesn't help in electronics...

 

Actually it does. Logic gates are the electronic equivalents of "If" statements. If you can condense the whole thing down to a set of those, then you can build a set of Boolean gates that match that table.

 

Al.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Barry O said:

Gordon

 

I must be missing something here..

 

If you set a rout into Platform1 that route should show LED indicators as the route is set by the Point machines.

 

If another route into platform 1  is selected then each turnout should light the LEDs for the turnout. position.  

But, if the route selected does not go to Platform 1 - say it went to 2, the route to that Platform would again be lit up as the points get to the correct position and hence into Platform 1 If this means the points into platform 1 no longer are "set".. then Platform 1 shouldn't be lit.

 

It should be a domino affect. 

image.png.e46d1d68fee9c19a5c12ca44aa8c6b22.png

 to go into platform 1 needs A,C, B AND D turnouts to be correctly set. LEDS should show route into 1

If route to Platform 2 selected then "C" and "D" turnouts will change.. hence Platofrm 2 lEDS will be lit

etc..

 

or is it me being stupid??

 

Baz

 

Sorry Baz, for some reason I missed your post. I can't disagree with your logic, but you only have one line coming in, whereas ET has two parallel lines, each of which can access any platform.

 

I keep looking at it and I can't see a time when the lights in platform 1 will be off.

 

1386713938_Screenshot2020-07-30at19_30_09.png.f23fb863ecc77d15c41268a357e0f01c.png

 

Martin is suggesting that the lights in the platform should only come on when a route is selected needing that platform. I can't argue with that, but can't see how it can be done via the turnout switching. Bear in mind this is only one platform and you can multiply this challenge by 7 as every other platform will have the same problem.

 

The two turnouts that control access to P1 are 1 & 2 and both can be straight or curved to allow access, so various combinations of those turnouts will always be set to P1, even if it is not required. 2 is a crossover and both are switched together. There is nothing I can see that generates a situation that P1 lights are off, if they are driven from turnout switching. The diesel shed, L1 or L2 all have access to P1.

 

There needs to be switching mechanism that is independent of the turnouts. If L2 is going into P2, nothing is running on L1 and no light loco's are required from the shed, then P1 lights should be off. 

 

The problem I have is I can't see how that can be done using turnouts and any setting on the turnouts will switch the lights on. Sadly, I cannot see a position of turnouts 1 & 2 that will leave the lights off.

 

The only person that can override that is the signalman..........and that will be independent of the turnouts.

 

The alternative is not to have any lights on the platform lines and only light up the routes in the junction. My problem with that was the large gaps between junctions where the platforms are.

 

I wish the light would come on in my head......:D

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Sitting watching the Fulham v Cardiff game and still pondering.  Within the ECoS system, every turnout is allocated a DCC address that is fed into the main bus. Those DCC signals are then picked up by the NCE Switch 8 which provides the power to switch the Tortoise motors.

 

There is also a facility within the ECoS display to set up virtual signals and lights and each of those has a DCC address fed into the main bus. A Switch 8 module would cover 7 virtual signals or lights for the 7 platforms and the output could possibly be used to switch the platform leds on and off.
 

You can make those signals/lights part of the route setting process, so that way the platform lights would only come on if a route was set.
 

Bonkers?........

Edited by gordon s
Added in lights as an accessory.
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1 hour ago, gordon s said:

 

I keep looking at it and I can't see a time when the lights in platform 1 will be off.

 

1386713938_Screenshot2020-07-30at19_30_09.png.f23fb863ecc77d15c41268a357e0f01c.png

 

Hi

 

If the crossover from track 1 to track 2 is set to cross over and points 2 are set straight and point 1 is set to curved there isn’t a route through platform one and the lights should be off.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

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2 hours ago, gordon s said:

 

I'm using Tortoise motors with dual switching. One switch is covering frog polarity, which leaves one free switch which could be used.

 

Bingo! It's dead easy.

 

You could wire it all up under the baseboard, linking one point motor to the next following the tracks. But I know you don't like working under the baseboard, so a single wire back from each motor to a relay under the panel might be preferable. 

 

Where is the power for the point motors coming from? How is it switched on and off?

 

It will work exactly as you want if the wiring mimics the track through a changeover switch for each turnout -- if a train can get to the platform, so can the leccy, and light the LED. If a train can't get to the platform, nor can the leccy, and the LED will be off. It's that simple.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

Edited by martin_wynne
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Gordon..in reality you look at the "King" point on the route into the platform.. in the diagram the king point for platform 1 the crossover betweem lines 1 md 2 give the first part of the route, line 2 point 2 is the next as is line 1 point 1 then the line 1  point 2. I will try and put this into some semblance of a logic diagram..but..KISS must be applied..

 

Baz

Edited by Barry O
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And you have each route into each platform already mapped so you just pull the logic you already have and reuse it in a slightly different way..

 

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40 minutes ago, gordon s said:

the NCE Switch 8 which provides the power to switch the Tortoise motors.

 

 

Great. Got some info at last. From the DCC Concepts web site:

 

"This decoder is designed to control Tortoise, SwitchMaster or other low current "stallmotor" switch machines. The outputs are rated for 50mA maximum. Most Tortoise machines draw 10 to 20mA with normal track voltage (about 13-15 volts)."

 

So we have about 15-20mA spare to drive a relay. Off to the catalogues...

 

Martin.

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43 minutes ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Bingo! It's dead easy.

 

You could wire it all up under the baseboard, linking one relay to the next following the tracks. But I know you don't like working under the baseboard, so a single wire back from each motor to a relay under the panel might be preferable. 

 

Where is the power for the point motors coming from? How is it switched on and off?

 

Power to drive the Tortoise motors comes from the DCC bus into a NCE Switch 8 module. They are stall motors so always on as long as the layout is switched on.

 

 

Quote

 

It will work exactly as you want if the wiring mimics the track through a changeover switch for each turnout -- if a train can get to the platform, so can the leccy, and light the LED. If a train can't get to the platform, nor can the leccy, and the LED will be off. It's that simple.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.


There is never a situation that the electricity is switched off as this is DCC control. Every single part of the layout is live all the time. The only time there is no power to a platform is when the whole thing is switched off.

 

Apologies if I’ve misunderstood.....

 

Edit:   I now realise you are talking about the electric supply to the leds, but going back to some of the points I made earlier, I suspect there are few if any situations where turnouts will be set not to go into a platform even if it is not required. Paul has picked up one for Platform 1, that I missed, so I will take a look tomorrow.

 

The ECoS lighting accessory option is also worth looking at. If each set of leds in every platform was given an address, then each lighting accessory becomes an item that is part of the route setting. All it then needs is a Switch 8 module inside the mimic panel with each output wired to a set of leds in each platform. 
 

No additional wiring back to the layout as whatever route is chosen the leds cannot come on unless they are part of a selected route. As each route overwrites any other that requires the same turnouts, the process of selecting a route will automatically switch on or off the platform leds if they are not required.

 

I can’t see a problem driving leds wired in parallel with suitable resistors from the Switch 8’s so that may be an option.

 

Quite happy to look at relays as an option if that is a better solution.

 

Thanks for all your inputs, guys. It certainly helped me understand the problem and think about possible solutions.

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5 minutes ago, gordon s said:

Apologies if I’ve misunderstood.....

 

 

Yes you have. there is no connection needed to the track power.

 

On reflection if I was doing it I would use a separate power supply for this relay logic, and keep it entirely separate from the DCC. That way it won't affect any warranty on the DCC stuff if you make mistakes or don't fit quench diodes on inductive components.

 

You could put the whole thing in a nice varnished wooden case with brass fittings -- this is a steam railway after all. :)

 

I will try to draw up some diagrams, it's a really simple concept if you lay the relays out on a board to match the track plan. I guarantee it will do this -- if there is a route set through the turnouts into a platform the LED will be on. If there isn't, it will be off. If that's what you want? No connection with any part of the DCC system or the existing LEDs. Just using the spare contacts on the Tortoise motors, some wire, some relays, and a source of power from somewhere -- you must have a spare 12v power unit somewhere?

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

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Hello,

       I think it is all getting rather too complex. Surely a green led illuminating whichever way the turnout is set will show which routes are possible. Just follow the green led's along the route will show the way.

If it is not illuminated green it is not accessible. One would just need an on-off-on switch operated by the tie bar to illuminate the relevant led. Turnouts are usually set one way or the other depending on the route chosen.

trustytrv.:)

Edited by trustytrev
wrong word
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Thanks Martin. I have edited my post above and will take a look tomorrow. 

 

Trev. My original mimic panel did exactly that with leds on the turnouts, but I felt there were some large gaps in the illuminated route between turnouts either end of each platform. The original mimic panel was 1m across and the gaps were probably up to 500mm between some turnouts and I was looking to improve the route tracing by adding extra leds on each platform. This discussion has been how to control them.......;)

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You all seem to be missing the point here, Gordon is only providing point position indications not route lights. As such there is no logic available to control platform LEDs in platforms with several access paths like platform 1.

Why put in permanently lit LEDs? trhey will confuse rather than enhance clarity.

Better to leave the platforms dark and just see the point settings in each fan. Clear and simple.

 

The concept of route setting with route lights only works if you have signals, or at least virtual signals, then the route lights come on only when both signal is clear and points set, this allows route lights in plain line sections as well, including platforms.

 

As I understand it Gordon is using route setting buttons which could provide the required logic provided that the route buttons are directional, I'm not sure all of them are, but it could be wort looking at if route lights in the platforms are really wanted.

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Hi Gordon,

 

I fully understand that you would rather do it with programming and electronics than lie under the baseboard with a soldering iron.

 

But in that case I'm out, because I know nothing about DCC.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

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Looking back at the pics of the panel all the routes buttons seem to be directional except the ones for the sidings.

So I think a relay operated by the route button for incoming trains could light up the platform LEDS, leave them dark for departures and siding moves.

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2 hours ago, Grovenor said:

You all seem to be missing the point here, Gordon is only providing point position indications not route lights. As such there is no logic available to control platform LEDs in platforms with several access paths like platform 1.

Why put in permanently lit LEDs? trhey will confuse rather than enhance clarity.

Better to leave the platforms dark and just see the point settings in each fan. Clear and simple.

 

The concept of route setting with route lights only works if you have signals, or at least virtual signals, then the route lights come on only when both signal is clear and points set, this allows route lights in plain line sections as well, including platforms.

 

As I understand it Gordon is using route setting buttons which could provide the required logic provided that the route buttons are directional, I'm not sure all of them are, but it could be wort looking at if route lights in the platforms are really wanted.

I was coming to the same conclusion as Keith. The discussion seems to have developed to the point where it has mixed up point indication and route indication.

 

My suggestion is to fit, or make provision to fit, all the LEDs you might need in future for route indication but don't wire up those that are nothing to do with the points. Just have point indication at this stage. Later you can change over to route indication when you are ready.

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I'm just a beginner with no experience of the kit that you're playing with.  I probably don't have a good understanding of the problem being described beyond it involving conditionally driving some additional LEDs.  However, ...

 

8 hours ago, gordon s said:

You can make those signals/lights part of the route setting process, so that way the platform lights would only come on if a route was set.

 

... that's what I would try.  If your ECoS has the sufficient outputs, you could just consider each platform as though it were a psuedo-turnout and include it in the route definition that (I presume) you program into the ECoS.

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Morning all, wow a lot has been posted whilst I’ve been asleep.......;)

 

I can see how the crossover from turnout selection has morphed into route selection. In actual fact there is no confusion on my part in terms of what I want to see, just how to achieve it.

 

 I’m really grateful for all your input and will consider all the options, but if it can be done electronically without having to clamber under the boards, then that is certainly preferable for me. It was a combination of all your ideas and stepping away to golf that stimulated the thoughts of doing it via the ECoS and setting the led’s up as accessories that can be switched via the route selection buttons.


I can’t do away with the twiddly knob thing as that is what is driving the mimic panel and much as I would like to switch routes via the mimic panel it can’t be done as DCC Concepts do not have route capability.......and how would I drive the trains?.........:D


My dear lady has lots of jobs lined up for me over the next few days, but I have all the bits to knock up a mock up of the platforms with led’s switched via the ECoS and a Switch 8. Can’t wait to see the outcome and if it provides the solution.

 

I’ll be back......;)

Edited by gordon s
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Another 2 cents worth, that's 4 I owe you!

Although there are many ways to skin a cat, IMHO,  you've gone down the wrong avenue.

As someone with a similar skill level to yourself when it comes to electronic/computer thingies, I've tried to keep it simple and separated the various feeds and functions and not lumped it all together in one box.

Whilst re-wiring Wibdenshaw I'm using a variation on a theme of this;

 

 

Dave at Megapoints is very helpful, which helps in my case!

 

Mike.

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10 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

Dave at Megapoints is very helpful, which helps in my case!

 

Mike.

 

I'll second that. Both of my questions to Dave have been to do with using his products in completely non-standard and unsupported ways and he is a true gentleman.

 

- Richard.

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4 minutes ago, gordon s said:

Wrong Avenue?......There’s been a few of them in this this thread.....:D

 

I honestly don't know. Best see what Mike says. :blush:

 

- Richard.

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As you would expect, I couldn't wait to test the theory, so grabbed a few minutes whilst make up and hair were being attended to......;)

 

Lashed up 5 leds in series to cover the output from the NCE and set up a light symbol with a DCC address in the ECoS. Programmed the NCE Switch 8 to recognise the address and voila! the led's came on and went off again with a simple touch.....:dance_mini:

 

Went into routes and selected the led's to come on only when a route was set into platform 1.

 

DSCF1205.jpg.d94bd6cdb05a72f66c44ab35b85cf5fa.jpg

 

Selecting L1 into platform 2 reset the route and turned off the led's....

 

DSCF1206.jpg.277b8d608fb3de593f8d08f49ff8e706.jpg

 

One very happy punter who can now get on with the panel.....

 

Thanks again for all your suggestions. It certainly made me think about how it could be done and in the end the simplest solution was right in front of me....:drink_mini:

Edited by gordon s
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