Eastwood Town - A tribute to Gordon's modelling.

[martin_wynne]

26 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

The changeovers could just be switches, not relays, depending on what point motors you are using (I'm sure you've told us but I can't remember).

 

 

Hi,

Gordon has Tortoise point motors, and does have a spare changeover switch on each. But understandably he doesn't like working underneath the baseboards making soldered connections. Getting the logic connections correct while doing so would also be challenging.

 

Much easier to lay out the relays on a board replicating the track plan. You can then see immediately which contact has to be connected to which other contact.

 

The relays need to slave the turnout motors. That's easily done direct from the Tortoise motors, but would need a lot of wire back to the control panel, and again working under the baseboard.

 

I'm sure there must be DCC interface boards which supply on-off output connections. If an output is given the same DCC code number as the turnout, it would presumably slave the turnout and could switch the relay coils on and off at the same time as the turnout.

 

There may be interface boards with on-board changeover relays. That would save buying separate relays, but loses the advantage of laying them out to replicate the track plan. The inter-connections between the contacts would need to be carefully transcribed from the track plan without making errors.

 

Unfortunately I know nothing about DCC, so I can't help with any of that.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

Edited August 7, 2020 by martin_wynne

[gordon s]

Thanks Martin and Co. The penny has finally dropped as I can now see the logic of your proposal. I was probably getting confused with power feeds or similar. 
 

It wasn’t a good day yesterday as my Sky Q TV system has gone on the blink. I can get a satellite signal to the main Q box and that TV is fine, but each of the mini boxes around the house come up with the same message ‘no satellite signal‘......

 

I must have spent several hours rebooting the system, the incoming BT router and every box trying to get it to work all to no avail. Whether it was the heat, I don’t know, but none of the Googled methods worked, nor could Sky technical support assist. Now in a battle with Sky as they can’t get an engineer here before the 28th August and with the Champions League football final stages in the next two or three weeks, I’m not a happy bunny.......
 

With no conventional TV aerial, it’s back to the 1950’s with just one working TV. Couldn’t even get Sky Go to work last night on an iPad, so it could be terminal. Of course they could just send me a new Sky Q box, but that would be too easy....

Edited August 8, 2020 by gordon s

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Having seen the traffic between Gordon and Martin, it makes me glad I'm using servos and Megapoints boards!

My head would have exploded weeks ago.

 

Mike.

[gordon s]

Still putting mine back together......

 

Just glad DCC only needs two wires.....

 

The good news is that I did get led’s on and off yesterday by feeding from the adjacent turnout led. Even had it working with a diode each end so it could be fed from either end. Where would I be without you guys?......

 

Once my front panel arrives I can start fitting leds and then we’ll see what happens....

[gordon s]

One for Martin. Did a bit more digging this morning and found in the DCC Concepts Mimic panel manual that it is possible to add up to 10 led's on each output.  Assuming a typical 20mA per led that's 200mA to play with. I measured one of the outputs and it was around 2.6v, so if you can find 3v SPCO relays, it could be driven by the existing led output from each output on the DCC Concepts Mimic panel and that would save me soldering under the boards.

 

Not saying I'm going that way as I'm still exploring the options, but thought it may give you ideas....

 

How about...

 

https://resources.kitronik.co.uk/pdf/relay datasheet.pdf

Edited August 8, 2020 by gordon s

[martin_wynne]

2 hours ago, gordon s said:

One for Martin. Did a bit more digging this morning and found in the DCC Concepts Mimic panel manual that it is possible to add up to 10 led's on each output.  Assuming a typical 20mA per led that's 200mA to play with. I measured one of the outputs and it was around 2.6v, so if you can find 3v SPCO relays, it could be driven by the existing led output from each output on the DCC Concepts Mimic panel and that would save me soldering under the boards.

 

Hi Gordon,

 

I would be wary of driving relays directly from that DCC interface board. The load is likely to be near the limit and may affect the performance. In addition relays are inductive devices which would need quenching diodes, and 2.6v is very limiting in the choice of relay.

 

What you need is a MOSFET driver between the output and the relay.

 

I imagine that someone somewhere supplies DCC interface boards which include on-board MOSFETs, and are designed for driving relays.

 

If not, maybe you could use these:

 

 https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/mosfet-drivers/0464110/

 

£4 for a pack of 10. Each one is a dual, so one pack would be enough for 20 relays. You could probably find cheaper elsewhere.

 

They are surface-mount, but don't need to be -- you could glue-gun them down somewhere and solder wires directly to the tabs if you are quick with the soldering iron.

 

Here's the data sheet:

 

 https://docs.rs-online.com/6536/0900766b8151e5be.pdf

 

They are designed for 12v relays, and you would need a 12v power supply for them (and for the relays). It needs to be a regulated 12V supply (14v max).

 

Here is the circuit diagram for each one.

 

 

Alternatively there are masses of other MOSFET drivers available, at a wide range of voltage and power ratings, and prices.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[gordon s]

 

 

Thanks for letting me know the pitfalls, Martin. 

 

That's a shame as I thought I had found a simple solution and was going to experiment to see if it would work via relays driven by the led outputs. I had ordered 20 3v relays from Amazon to play around with and see where it took me. Thankfully I managed to cancel them a few minutes ago. Clearly I would need more components to go down that route, so I'll come back to it if all other options fail.

 

I'll have a play around with diodes etc and see what happens. If it doesn't work, you'll be the first to know....

 

I still have the fall back of manual switching with one touch per platform on the ECoS. Strangely that is becoming quite attractive with zero cost and zero work......

Edited August 8, 2020 by gordon s

[Grovenor]

All this effort for a few LEDs in platforms that provide no additional information to that already provided by the point indications and hence are not helpful or required.

If you actually have routes with signals involved then you will have the information needed to operate the LEDs and they will add value. With the current setup they don't add value.

Just my threepennorth.

Edited August 8, 2020 by Grovenor

[martin_wynne]

39 minutes ago, gordon s said:

That's a shame as I thought I had found a simple solution and was going to experiment to see if it would work via relays driven by the led outputs. I had ordered 20 3v relays from Amazon to play around with and see where it took me. Thankfully I managed to cancel them a few minutes ago.

 

 

Not so fast Gordon. If you want to use 3v relays, these are all you need and they are only 26p each:

 

 https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/mosfet-drivers/7931068/

 

You could glue one alongside each relay, and then it is only a single extra connection from it to the relay coil.

 

On reflection 5v relays might be a better option. Lots of relay options available, and the same MOSFET above will  drive them. More significantly, a 1amp 5volt regulated power supply is available using one of those plug-in USB phone chargers, I'm sure you have a spare one.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

Edited August 8, 2020 by martin_wynne

[martin_wynne]

38 minutes ago, Grovenor said:

All this effort for a few LEDs in platforms that provide no additional information to that already provided by the point indications and hence are not helpful or required.

 

 

For a single platform I agree a LED doesn't add much information.

 

However, Gordon has 6 or more platforms. Being able to see at a glance which ones are currently routed and which are not, without tracing through several incoming and outgoing crossovers, would be very helpful. Also, seeing a LED on at both ends of a platform tells you instantly that a through route is set, so trains could be left to run through.

 

It's the DCC stuff which is a mystery to me. For example, if you have a train approaching on the Down Slow, and want to route it into platform 5, how do you remember that means setting route number 37? Whereas with a row of levers in a signal box, you can easily remember which pulls are needed in sequence to set which route.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

Edited August 8, 2020 by martin_wynne

[gordon s]

Quite easily Martin. Each platform has four buttons corresponding to the four running lines numbered one to four from the inside. Just one button press sets all the turnouts to go from the ‘down slow’ to platform 5. Job done.

 

There are just four buttons in each platform. You decide where you want to go and that’s it. You don’t need to know route 37,  that doesn’t exist. Line one (first button) on platform 5 is all you need to know. 
 

In addition it will be possible to cross right across ET station approach if required and that will shut down any conflicting routes with a clear indication to others to stop or proceed with care. That is why I want the platform leds to go off if no route is available. I think that was your suggestion right from the beginning and I can see that makes a lot of sense now.

 

This is still very early days with no signalling and no interlocking. Once I get the basics sorted, then I can add the detail afterwards,

 

Nothing could be easier and with each route lit on the mimic panel, I will be able to see at a glance what is going on.

 

Might not be to traditional tastes, but rule 1 applies.......

Edited August 9, 2020 by gordon s

[martin_wynne]

6 minutes ago, gordon s said:

There are just four buttons in each platform.

 

 

Thanks Gordon.

 

Where are these 4 buttons? I didn't see them on the mimic diagram. Presumably there are 4 at each end of each platform?

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[gordon s]

There’s nothing on the mimic diagram. Let’s go back one step, the mimic just replicates what’s on the ECoS. I did look at making the mimic panel a full switching panel, but DCC Concepts don’t have the route selection facility that the ECoS has, so there was no no benefit to me spending more money on the switching without route selection.

 

I have asked several times about route selection from an external source back into the ECoS but no one could come up with anything. That would be my preferred solution as the screen size on the ECoS is smaller than I would like. I would love the buttons on the mimic panel feeding back via the S88 port, but no seems to know how to do it.

 

The compromise for me was to set up all the routes on the ECoS and see them on the mimic.

 

Here is a shot of the ECoS screen. You can see the platforms and each of the buttons. Nothing could be simpler. Just two things you need to know. Which line am I on and where do I want to go. Even a child could it. No turnouts to switch, just one button.....

 

Ignore the lamps, that was me trying to set up the platform leds. Just touching each symbol will toggle them on off, hence my thought that if it gets too complicated, I'll do it manually.

 

Seven platform lines and two sidings. Four buttons representing each line reading left to right, 1, 2, 3, 4. Another ECoS failing is that you cannot add text, or the buttons would be numbered.

 

Bottom line is a train leaving platform one on line one........Three crossovers set correctly in less than a second sequentially. Now try and think of the complexity of a curved layout with multiple turnouts and visually comparing a straight track plan with a curved station 18' across and then tell me you would would know which lever to move and in which sequence. Yes, it can be done, but anything for a simple life for me. Anyone could come here and in two minutes explanation they could run up to four trains at once....

 

By the way, the blank button on the left is the total reset button. One touch will reset every turnout on the layout (70 of them by the time I finish) to a default position, so when you start an operating session (I wish) everything is set correctly to run four trains without touching any control switches. Makes life very simple and avoids trying to work out who left what where the last time. Trains will be running for visitors in seconds.....

 

Ideal when the younger members of our family arrive....

 

 

Edited August 9, 2020 by gordon s

[martin_wynne]

Thanks Gordon.

 

But the buttons (I assume it's a touch screen?) are laid out in a horizontal row, and the tracks they refer to are in a vertical column? That would drive me nuts. There is no way I would remember which button is which track. Can the buttons and the tracks be colour-coded?

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[gordon s]

There’s no facility whatsoever to add text or anything similar on the ECoS. Yes, it is a touch screen and most of it is brilliant...

 

I’m very happy with the diagram and it makes perfect sense to me to have the buttons laid out horizontally. Of course our brains are all different, so Rule 1 comes into play......
 

I really would prefer to have all the route buttons on the mimic, but no one has come forward with a solution and I’ve moved on.
 

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

After that lot Gordon you must find the R &A golf rules simple?

 

Mike.

[Buhar]

1 hour ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

After that lot Gordon you must find the R &A golf rules simple?

 

Mike.

Rule 126f:- If you're approaching the green from the southwest after Spurs have lost at home in the preceding five days you have to calibrate your approach shot using Templot and the club selected must have blue LEDs down the shaft. 

Alan 

[gordon s]

You forgot the ball must be 18.83mm diameter and definitely not 16.2mm as that has been proven not to work.......

[St Enodoc]

18 minutes ago, gordon s said:

You forgot the ball must be 18.83mm diameter and definitely not 16.2mm as that has been proven not to work.......

My balls are bigger than that and oval in shape.

[gordon s]

Have you seen a doctor?.....

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, gordon s said:

Have you seen a doctor?.....

Doctor who?

[Oldddudders]

Back in the mid-'80s, some of St E's erstwhile senior colleagues at Croydon HQ were trying to identify just who among them was the awkward one. In an era of increased scheme development and sharing of ideas, someone was perceived by other departments to be unhelpful. He, whoever he was, had been christened Dr No!

[St Enodoc]

8 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Back in the mid-'80s, some of St E's erstwhile senior colleagues at Croydon HQ were trying to identify just who among them was the awkward one. In an era of increased scheme development and sharing of ideas, someone was perceived by other departments to be unhelpful. He, whoever he was, had been christened Dr No!

For the avoidance of doubt, I was (and am) not Dr No. As it happens, I can think of more than one potential candidate...

 

There was someone in Sydney a few years ago who became characterised as "someone who wouldn't take yes for an answer". My opinion was that he suffered from "reverse Del Monte syndrome". Whereas "The man from Del Monte says yes!" this fellow always said "No!". A number of us got hold of tins of Del Monte pineapple slices, which sat on our desks - upside down. He never twigged.

[Enterprisingwestern]

2 hours ago, gordon s said:

You forgot the ball must be 18.83mm diameter and definitely not 16.2mm as that has been proven not to work.......

 

The bat shaft must also be bullhead not flat bottom.

 

Mike.

[St Enodoc]

4 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

The bat shaft

Isn't that what houses the lift from Bruce Wayne's mansion to the Bat Cave?