Eastwood Town - A tribute to Gordon's modelling.

[martin_wynne]

About two weeks ago I bit the bullet and downloaded a free software called Winebottler and Wine to run Windows based programmes on my Mac. There are a few videos on YouTube with some helpful pointers too, albeit for the gamers of this world, but if read between the lines so to speak gives a good idea of its use on a Mac. It also saves having to partition the hard drive which some may know about.

 

Being rather nervous about the process all my fears have been allayed and I now run Templot without any problems. It may not be for everyone but possibly worth mentioning for those who wish to give it a try.

 

For those even more nervous, there is a paid-for option called CrossOver to easy-install Wine on a Mac which comes with full 12-month support from Codeweavers: https://www.codeweavers.com/

 

On the other hand, Winebottler does the same thing and is free: http://winebottler.kronenberg.org/

 

Martin.

[bgman]

For those even more nervous, there is a paid-for option called CrossOver to easy-install Wine on a Mac which comes with full 12-month support from Codeweavers: https://www.codeweavers.com/

 

On the other hand, Winebottler does the same thing and is free: http://winebottler.kronenberg.org/

 

Martin.

Thank you Martin, I meant to qualify the above with your comments and links to the various sites.

[gordon s]

Getting a bit fed up with these middle of the nights stints, particularly as I have a Winter League match this morning at 9.30.  Beware the sick golfer.......

 

ET has always been an open thread and I do welcome input as I don't have all the answers.  I really don't mind having a couple of days swimming around as that's so much better than ploughing on and then finding something doesn't work.

 

Picking up the new points raised.

 

Hi Gordon

 

I hate adding a criticism without offering a solution...  so as an "observation"; a double slip is a fairly expensive and mechanically complex bit of kit in real life.  I wonder how out of place it will look on a coaling stage road in a depot?  I haven't gone back and looked, but if you went through the ER and NER volumes of Paul Bolgers depot plans, I suspect you would not find too many double slips inside a steam era MPD.

 

I understand the issue is one of space, and compression, however as model coaling operations are imaginary, anyway, perhaps sacrificing true to life "operability" for a track arrangement that is simpler, but more visually in line with what you would see, is a compromise worth considering?

 

Always remember - It comes down to what *you* are happiest with. My opinion is only worth 2p. Some may say that needs discounting!    

 

Regards

 

Scott

 

No problem at all Scott.  Nothing has been decided and at this stage is just a paper exercise.  This design phase started with Pete asking about empty coal wagons and one of the suggestions came from Mike re incorporating a double slip.  My knowledge of real railways is limited, so I'll leave Mike to answer that one.....Immediately takes one step to the right.

 

I seem to recall somewhere discussions on slips and that they tended to be used in yards etc for the exactly the reasons quoted.  Space saving and flexibility, but Mike will certainly throw some light behind his original suggestion.

 

Hello Gordon,

                  Could you not use the PrtScr/SysRq  key to get a screen grab? I think it would be easier quicker and better than a camera shot.

trustytrev.

 

I was just rushing around last night Trev as we had quiz night and I had to get out.  Other than a trip to the Radcliife during the week for my bi annual check up, this was my first outing for a week.  I really enjoy quiz nights, so pushed myself.  It was really worth the effort as we finished second, just two points off braggin' rights with my golfing mates.

 

The picture was literally to save time. My two PC's are totally independent and the Windows one has nothing on it other than Templot.  Not even email, so normally I just save a screen shot or sketch board on a memory stick and swap between machines.  It's not ideal, but it works.

 

I could probably set up mail on this machine and shift things electronically between the two, but with various iPads and other devices already being used, it was an IT thing which I could probably do, but effort outweighed convenience and I couldn't be arsed, so I live with it.  If there is a simpler way and it's easy to do, then I'll look at it, but I'd rather spend the time on getting ET running.

 

 

Hi Gordon,

Ref your post #3392 " I work on a Mac (don't go there )

For several years I've been using an old PC running Windows for Templot and wished that I could use my MacBook for the programme.

About two weeks ago I bit the bullet and downloaded a free software called Winebottler and Wine to run Windows based programmes on my Mac. There are a few videos on YouTube with some helpful pointers too, albeit for the gamers of this world, but if read between the lines so to speak gives a good idea of its use on a Mac. It also saves having to partition the hard drive which some may know about.

Being rather nervous about the process all my fears have been allayed and I now run Templot without any problems. It may not be for everyone but possibly worth mentioning for those who wish to give it a try.


Grahame

 

 

I did try various programmes on my Mac to run Templot and it did work, but there was something at the time that required additional keystrokes that slowed the process down, so I reverted to type.  'If it ain't broke, don't fix it' can be a complete block to progress, but I do find myself trying something for an hour or so and weighing up the pro's and con's.  If I think it doesn't come second nature and the disadvantages outweigh the advantages, then I'll stop with what works for me.  When I get time, I will look at at it again.  From memory it was around the key board or Function keys, where additional key strokes were required and therefore it took longer to do things.

 

Templot is a wonderful piece of software, but I find I have very concentrated use for weeks when productivity soars and then I'll not use it again for months.  This is not ideal, as for me it is a complex programme.  One that I can fly though when I'm in the thick of it, but ask me again after a break of weeks and I'm back to 30% of my productivity until I get going again.

 

Of course this takes it firmly into the IIABDFI camp (if it ain't broke, don't fix it) so I tend to stick with what works.  It's daft I know, but one day when I have a spare morning I'll give it another go.

 

Either way, please keep suggestions/ideas coming forward.  I do read them all and there's loads of gems in these pages.....

 

Edit:  Apologies JeffP I meant to come back to you re types of storage.  I agree as my memories are similar.  It's something I will look at as I'm not strapped for space, but I needed to get the flow right first and then add additional standing space.  After years of the ups and downs of ET, reducing the amount of trackwork has been one of my priorities, so perhaps I leave out essential bits by mistake.  Once I get these empty coal wagons sorted, I'll look at standing space for loco's.  I have far too many of the blooming' things anyway and they have to go somewhere or they'll never get used.

Edited January 6, 2018 by gordon s

[Michael Edge]

I use a Mac as well but it has virtual Windows (XP and 7) machines running on it with VMware (free). Templot runs on these with no problems at all. The virtual machines are suspended rather than stopped when not in use, avoiding most of the irritatingly slow Windows star up.

[sixoh8sixoh]

Hi Gordon, lovely to see ET moving along at pace now. My layout plans have just been plans for probably as long as ET’s thread has been running, mostly due to lack of space (and more recently time).

 

I first tried using Parallels Desktop without much success, then partitioned my desktop Mac and had Windows running on it, and my advice is don’t bother. I had a full version of Photoshop installed and found myself avoiding going in as the process for swapping partitions was slow, I spent my time worrying about Windows-targeting viruses and in the end just ended up using lighter weight software on the Mac instead! (I know that’s not an option for Templot though!)

 

I’d say stick with tried and tested - and fast - methods until you find a genuine and pressing reason to change - no-one here will mind a picture of a screen taken in a hurry as opposed to a proper screenshot!

[gordon s]

Hi Mike and Mike!

 

Great to hear from you again.  OK Mike 1.  Can you humour me for a few minutes?  Can you fire up Templot on your Mac and tell me if the F keys function without additional keystrokes?  Just to prove I'm not a complete Luddite, I will try Wine Bottler over the weekend, but certainly can't promise it will stay there....

 

Mike 2's experience is similar to my own.  I can't say that with 100% certainty, but there was something that infuriated me, so off it came.  Right now I have the two PC's next to each other and my Windows machine does nothing other than run Templot.  I know email is not set up and I'm not even sure it's hooked up to the web.  This machine must be 15 years old and was running XP until that finally keeled over and died.  At that time I wiped the whole thing clean and started again with a new version of Windows 7 I bought to run with Parallels.  It now steams along and does all I need.  A big old pair of comfy slippers that work.

 

Spoke to soon!  Just fired up my Windows machine and got a Failed to start up message....

 

Now see what you've done!.....

 

CHKDSK is starting......

 

There are times when I love IT, but today is not going to be one of them.

 

Meanwhile my Mac desktop goes on and on and on without fail.....

Edited January 6, 2018 by gordon s

[gordon s]

OK crisis over.  It went through a whole series of tasks and one I saw was 'recovering orphaned files' so I have no idea what happened.  It's run perfectly until today.  It is hooked up to my router so does have internet access, but no email set up.

 

As I said it's not a real problem for me saving Templot pics etc to a memory stick and then plugging it into my Mac.  

 

Just hoping Windows doesn't go AWOL again....

[hayfield]

Sorry John, took me a while to understand what you meant.

 

Using switched crossings instead of a K crossings is one option and I seem to recall building one that way a while back.

 

Food for thought....

 

Edit:  Just drawn one up in Templot.  That's a possibility. 6 Tortoise motors on one piece of track would be expensive....

 

Just as well I bought several when they were £10 each. 

 

OK, Mike, let's assume I can build one.  Can you scribble out a pencil sketch of your proposal so I can see exactly what you were suggesting and I'll have a go in Templot tomorrow.

 

 

Gordon

 

Why would you require 6 point motors for a switched crossing? or as usual I have missed something

 

Re switched crossing always build 2 Y's back to back, or go completely the other way and build an outside slip, beware they are massive !!!

[unravelled]

I'm showing my ignorance here but part of the solution might lie in how the coaling tower is worked, in the sense of being topped up with coal. How many days/hours/wagons of coal does it hold? Is a string of full wagons kept at the foot, to be manhandled/capstanned on to the lift and moved clear when emptied. This is essentially what I've seen at GW coaling stages. From time to time a loco will remove the empties and replace with full wagons. If the full wagons come from off scene won't the empties go off scene at the end of the operation? OK they need to be briefly left somewhere while the fulls are placed, but does this have to be a dedicated siding. Alternatively operation could simply be a shunter bringing in some fulls, working the rake through the tower one at a time, then departing with the empties.
So, do you need this extra siding at all? As long as the tower is placed midway along the siding, so that all  fulls can left one side be accommodated clear of the tower when empty all will be well. If you have emties to get rid of, surely you are in need of some fulls to replace them.

Always good to see progress on this project.

 

Thanks

 

Dave

 

Dave

[martin_wynne]

Can you fire up Templot on your Mac and tell me if the F keys function without additional keystrokes?

 

Hi Gordon,

 

I know nothing about a Mac, but I can use Google:

__________________

 

If you prefer the top row of keys to always behave as standard function keys without holding the Fn key:

• Choose System Preferences from the Apple menu.
• Click Keyboard.
• Click the Keyboard tab if it's not already highlighted.
• Select "Use all F1, F2, etc. keys as standard function keys"

_______________________

 

I don't know if that means they then work normally in Templot/Wine, but I'm sure I have posted this before and you said yes.

 

Martin.

[The Stationmaster]

Right, best I could do in an hour or so.  The make double slip option certainly helps, but it took me ages to work out how to get the slip going in the right direction to get to the correct roads and still be able to access the turntable correctly.

 

Apologies for the camera shot.  Templot is on my windows PC and I work on a Mac (don't go there!).  The sketch facility is great, but shows the whole plan so the slips etc lacked the detail I needed.

 

Got there eventually, so quite happy.....

 

DSCF9056.jpg

 

That's exactly what I had in mind Gordon - well read from my scrappy description (or attempt at a description).  BTW I doubt you would be likely to find a switch diamond where points are worked by hand levers - good recipe for a succession of derailments.

 

Incidentally there were definitely examples of hand lever worked slips in yards - in fact I came across a photo of one yesterday while wandering round the 'net looking for something else so in a cramped location I wouldn't necessarily consider it unusual.  I think you've arrived at a reasonable length of siding for accommodating your coal wagons and their number is inevitably going to be selectively compressed even if their length won't be.  In reality of course empty coal wagons would be loaded out with ash at some depots but even then some would have been worked away empty so no problem with sending empties out.

Edited January 6, 2018 by The Stationmaster

[Michael Edge]

Hi Mike and Mike!

 

Great to hear from you again.  OK Mike 1.  Can you humour me for a few minutes?  Can you fire up Templot on your Mac and tell me if the F keys function without additional keystrokes?  Just to prove I'm not a complete Luddite, I will try Wine Bottler over the weekend, but certainly can't promise it will stay there....

 

Mike 2's experience is similar to my own.  I can't say that with 100% certainty, but there was something that infuriated me, so off it came.  Right now I have the two PC's next to each other and my Windows machine does nothing other than run Templot.  I know email is not set up and I'm not even sure it's hooked up to the web.  This machine must be 15 years old and was running XP until that finally keeled over and died.  At that time I wiped the whole thing clean and started again with a new version of Windows 7 I bought to run with Parallels.  It now steams along and does all I need.  A big old pair of comfy slippers that work.

 

Spoke to soon!  Just fired up my Windows machine and got a Failed to start up message....

 

Now see what you've done!.....

 

CHKDSK is starting......

 

There are times when I love IT, but today is not going to be one of them.

 

Meanwhile my Mac desktop goes on and on and on without fail.....

 

Not sure which Mike I am but VMware is fairly bulletproof, my son uses it in his business to run his client's Windows software on his Mac. The virtual machines are subject to the usual  Windows crashes but the last version of XP was pretty reliable (Turbocad crashes it occasionally though) and the virtual 7 machine hasn't crashed at all. Both machines are only connected to the network (internet) if I choose to, normally they aren't, they can read all the files on the Mac and OneDrive, the Mac can open files with them if required, when suspended they aren't doing anything. Templot runs all the time on them, only connected to the network to get updates.

Mike

[gordon s]

Glad to say we won our match today, but boy was it cold.....

 

Sniffed the whole way round and chipped in on the last hole to win the match.  I told you, beware the sick or injured golfer.....

 

Anyway, back to the important stuff.

 

 

 

Hi Gordon,

 

I know nothing about a Mac, but I can use Google:

__________________

 

If you prefer the top row of keys to always behave as standard function keys without holding the Fn key:

•  
• Choose System Preferences from the Apple menu.
•  
• Click Keyboard.
•  
• Click the Keyboard tab if it's not already highlighted.
•  
• Select "Use all F1, F2, etc. keys as standard function keys"
•  

_______________________

 

I don't know if that means they then work normally in Templot/Wine, but I'm sure I have posted this before and you said yes.

 

Martin.

 

 

 

Probably, but I have a memory like a sieve.......

 

 

That's exactly what I had in mind Gordon - well read from my scrappy description (or attempt at a description).  BTW I doubt you would be likely to find a switch diamond where points are worked by hand levers - good recipe for a succession of derailments.

 

Incidentally there were definitely examples of hand lever worked slips in yards - in fact I came across a photo of one yesterday while wandering round the 'net looking for something else so in a cramped location I wouldn't necessarily consider it unusual.  I think you've arrived at a reasonable length of siding for accommodating your coal wagons and their number is inevitably going to be selectively compressed even if their length won't be.  In reality of course empty coal wagons would be loaded out with ash at some depots but even then some would have been worked away empty so no problem with sending empties out.

 

How about one of these....

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/93181-barry-slips-at-barry/

 

I've already built one just for the fun of it, but then sold it to Capt Kernow.  Knew it would come in useful one day.  It could be the answer.  The only downside I can see is that you can't pull the empties out into the headhunt before the turntable.  They would have to go out the way they came in and then straight across into the empties road.  Loco then has a choice of straight out or across to the turntable. Empties can come out straight across.

 

The only thing you can't do is go from the coaler filling road to the turntable.  That would work....

 

Gordon

 

Why would you require 6 point motors for a switched crossing? or as usual I have missed something

 

Re switched crossing always build 2 Y's back to back, or go completely the other way and build an outside slip, beware they are massive !!!

 

 

Two each end for the point blades, although they could be paired and two for the switched crossings.

 

I'm probably going to make a start on this next week, so any more thoughts?  Rule 1 may eventually apply.

Edited January 6, 2018 by gordon s

[Regularity]

I don't know if that means they then work normally in Templot/Wine, but I'm sure I have posted this before and you said yes.

 

With one or two exceptions due to key combinations already being allocated to other actions, yes it does work.

The exceptions are nothing that should be laid at your door, Martin, and are simply a consequence of running Templot on an unsupported and unintended erasing system. Happy to put up with the odd conflict.

[gordon s]

I did take a look at Winebottler this evening, but didn't feel confident about downloading it. I'm always wary of a 'free lunch' and dislike any software website where there's several sets of software and one click in the wrong place or misleading instructions can install all sorts of unwelcome stuff.

 

Not really sure what I will gain by having Templot on my Mac anyway other than the odd occasion where I need to show something on this thread. I'll probably stay as is......

[martin_wynne]

With one or two exceptions due to key combinations already being allocated to other actions, yes it does work.

The exceptions are nothing that should be laid at your door, Martin, and are simply a consequence of running Templot on an unsupported and unintended erasing system. Happy to put up with the odd conflict.

 

Hi Simon,

 

Thanks. I do try to provide alternative key combinations for Wine if possible. I can detect if Templot is running under Wine, but I don't think there is an easy way, or any way, to detect if it is doing so on Linux or a Mac.

 

If you say which keys are problematic, I will see if I can provide a fix which won't affect Linux users.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[Kylestrome]

I did take a look at Winebottler this evening, but didn't feel confident about downloading it. I'm always wary of a 'free lunch' and dislike any software website where there's several sets of software and one click in the wrong place or misleading instructions can install all sorts of unwelcome stuff.

 

Spurred on by posts on this thread, this evening I had a go at opening Templot on my Mac (OS 10.11.6 El Capitan) using Winebottler and failed. After two fresh attempts the whole lot went in the bin.

 

It would seem that Wine is not a "free lunch" for everyone. 

 

David

 

PS. To get Wine to open at all I had to switch off the security settings in System Preferences, which is always slightly risky.

Edited January 6, 2018 by Kylestrome

[Regularity]

Hi Martin,

 

I can use control-shift-F3, but not control-shift-F4. Similarly, control-shift-F8, but not control-shift-F7. As these are “paired” operations, I don’t mind using the keys to select the shift transition start point, and to then click on the toggle button for the paired functions to adjust the transition length, etc; similarly I can select rotate group with keys and switch to shift group. Not a major problem, as things go, and I would rather not be able to use certain key combinations rather than have non-standard key combinations that confuse should Apple’s arrogance finally get too much for me. (The Mac I use is now over ten years old, and only just starting to show its age. Turned out to be great value!)

[Regularity]

I have used Crossover, after nasty experiences with Parallels.

 

Since I only use it for Templot, I don’t buy a new one every release, nor every year: if it works, it works, and it is not one of their supported programs, so I have no qualms only over buying it twice in the 8 years since I gave up on Parallels. Besides, since Templot is free, it us but a small expense.

[martin_wynne]

I can use control-shift-F3, but not control-shift-F4. Similarly, control-shift-F8, but not control-shift-F7.

 

Hi Simon,

 

Have you printed the F key chart? See the help menu.

 

You will see on the chart that there are easy alternatives to those shortcuts. I assume they work on a Mac:

 

For SHIFT+CTRL+F3 -- just press [

For SHIFT+CTRL+F4 -- just press ]

 

For SHIFT+CTRL+F7 -- just press \

For SHIFT+CTRL+F8 -- just press /

 

Make sure the trackpad has focus (click on it).

 

Martin.

Edited January 6, 2018 by martin_wynne

[Regularity]

Havn’t printed it out for some time, and indeed have lost it. Must re-check!

 

Ta.

[gordon s]

Spurred on by posts on this thread, this evening I had a go at opening Templot on my Mac (OS 10.11.6 El Capitan) using Winebottler and failed. After two fresh attempts the whole lot went in the bin.

 

It would seem that Wine is not a "free lunch" for everyone. 

 

David

 

PS. To get Wine to open at all I had to switch off the security settings in System Preferences, which is always slightly risky.

 

 

Thanks David, much as I felt.  I'm on 10.12.6 Sierra.  Woke up 15 minutes ago, switched on my Mac and found I had around 30 desktop icons appear where I usually have around 10.  Right up front, in case this is misconstrued, I have absolutely no issues whatsoever with Templot, more about straying off piste and the risks associated with downloading free software.  I have to say that, as I've seen before how you can oft be requoted by others for their own agenda.

 

I've run Malwarebytes and other tools and glad to say my Mac is still clean.  Never had any issues whatsoever with Malware on my Mac, but it's certainly a coincidence this strange occurrence on my desktop is directly after my attempts to install Winebottler.

 

It may well work perfectly for other's, but I now realise I'm quite happy with the my set up of two machines.  Much safer for me.  I have a Mac that works perfectly and a Windows PC with Templot that also does what I need.  All the risks re virus infections and Malware are then with my Windows machine and that's not a problem as I can wipe that clean and start again with little inconvenience.

 

Thankfully all is well in ET world, so I'll now plough all my energies back into the joy of building a model railway and leave IT to others.......

[gordon s]

Hi Gordon,

 

To show full template detail on the sketchboard -- on the sketchboard control panel, trackplan tab, untick the in diagram mode tickbox, and then click update now button.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

 

 

 

Thanks Martin, works a treat....

 

 

Right, back to building....

[Michael Edge]

Wouldn't a single slip be enough there? You don't need access to the turntable from the empty wagon road.

[The Stationmaster]

Wouldn't a single slip be enough there? You don't need access to the turntable from the empty wagon road.

 

You do if you're using it as a headshunt for coal wagons otherwise your coal shunts go right across the busiest road off the turntable towards the coaler. (crikey, I'm getting into LMS 'ideal loco shed layout').

 

And Gordon I don't think a Barry slip would work operationally in taht location nice tho' it would be to have one. (Although oddly the Perway designer working on one of my track layout plans back in the early 1990s finished up having to put on in as it was the only way he could get things to fit.  Alas we were disappointed because were both looking forward to a 1990s flat bottom rail version of one but the site was dropped from planning and I had to work up a plan for another site where, fortunately, the designer noticed I had sketched in a single slip where a double slip was needed - that one was built.)