Eastwood Town - A tribute to Gordon's modelling.

[Denbridge]

You wont need to use the flap all the time. A simple matter to just move a few trains back a little on the occasions you want to reach the other side for maintenance or what ever.

[gordon s]

Well I'm sitting here once again chuckling away to myself and as always reminded of the joke 'Can you tell me the way to Dublin'? Yes, but I wouldn't start from here.....

 

ET is a fictitious place, designed for me to enjoy watching trains run and relive those times back in the 50s and 60's when steam was still the norm, but diesels were just appearing on the scene. I know little about the operation of a railway, so going to shows for me is all about running quality and overall scenic presentation and not looking to see that everything conforms to prototype practice. 

 

Apart from a few tweaks, I am where I am regarding a layout plan, so any changes to bring it in line with real life would mean scrapping what I have and there I don't have the time, money or motivation to even consider it. I'm stuck with this, but can see past it's faults and limitations and still enjoy building and running trains on my big train set.....

 

Where I'm really grateful for input is where I'm stuck on a particular problem and a fresh pair of eyes is a great help. Working on your own can be hard and tunnel vision is often a problem, stopping you seeing the obvious. Your support and encouragement over the years has been invaluable and long may it continue as I bumble along in my own way.

 

Right, 'nuff said....so back to this particular problem.

 

I probably have 100 or so loco's and enough stock to fill ET several times over. I'm looking to have a storage area hold 15 complete trains that can be pulled up onto the main circuit as required and run a few laps. It may well be in future that should this become boring, then I'll start to delve into timetable running etc, but that is a long way away. The storage area is no different to anything you see on most layouts, other than design constraints mean it has to be single ended.

 

15 trains require 15 loco's and I believe the shed area and other places around the layout will allow me to have around 40+ locos on display and available. Every few weeks, loco's and stock will be changed and swapped with the others from my bulk store. The reason for the turntable at the end of the storage is simple. It provides a storage area for 15 complete trains and allows me to turn loco's around to return from storage. Once returned to the main layout, they can go on shed or be replaced by another loco.

 

Bear in mind this won't happen every five minutes, so whilst wrong road running probably breaks all the rules, I can live with it. Without that, I'm reducing the number of locos available by 15. Of course I could remove them and hold them in small cassettes on their own, but that means additional handling and more room required to hold the cassette and locomotives.

 

I recognise the storage as it stands is not ideal for the reasons you have mentioned, hence my original question. It was only after those replies did the idea of a mobile cassette storage unit arise which would take up far less space and improves access considerably. This is still 'blue sky thinking' in my world, so I have no idea at this stage whether it is feasible or practical within the space confines I have.

 

As I said earlier, I really appreciate your guidance and assistance when I get stuck, but ET is a fictitious place and so my main priorities are  track building and a scenic element that will take me back 60 years or so. 

 

If that means I have a train set and not a model railway, then I can live with that....

 

Edit: Just revisited your suggestion, Martin and I can see where you are coming from, but unless any station pilot is going to push the empty stock all the way to storage, won't I have the same problem with tank engines etc trapped in the storage area?   

 

I appreciate you were talking about detaching the loco and then free wheeling coaches down a slope. That may be may be exciting, but my new RB coach has a mind of its own. I have never seen such free wheeling capability. The slightest slope from level and its gone..........

 

Possibly easier to handle tank engines and diesels rather that Pacifics, but I'd like to try and avoid handling unless there is no option.

 

 

Edited February 25, 2021 by gordon s

[BoD]

48 minutes ago, gordon s said:

Edit: Just revisited your suggestion, Martin and I can see where you are coming from, but unless any station pilot is going to push the empty stock all the way to storage, won't I have the same problem with tank engines etc trapped in the storage area? Possibly easier to handle tank engines and diesels rather that Pacifics, but I'd like to try and avoid handling unless there is no option.

 

 

Only have 14 trains stored in the fiddle yard (you did say you would be swapping things in and out anyway) and leave the central road for locos to run round from the turntable? Assuming your cassette idea won't work.

[Ray H]

Using cassettes only for the locos would allow you to change locos more frequently without increasing the handling, wouldn't take up as much space as a turntable and could equally just be used as a turntable by turning the cassette.

 

I don't have anywhere near as much stock as you and run a sequence instead of a timetable. The sequence is printed out for the use of the (up to) four operators so has the loco identities printed on the sequence sheets. As a consequence I find that the locos in the drawers are seldom used. It might be different if you're the sole operator but you may find it difficult to recall the various loco numbers.

[martin_wynne]

1 hour ago, gordon s said:

Edit: Just revisited your suggestion, Martin and I can see where you are coming from, but unless any station pilot is going to push the empty stock all the way to storage, won't I have the same problem with tank engines etc trapped in the storage area? Possibly easier to handle tank engines and diesels rather that Pacifics, but I'd like to try and avoid handling unless there is no option.

 

Hi Gordon,

 

My suggestion was to use gravity shunting. The storage sidings are on a gentle down gradient* from the entrance, levelling out at the buffers. When the pilot engines arrives at the entrance to the sidings with a set of coaches it stops, detaches from the coaches, and runs forward into a short spur. The guard in the coaches then releases brakes, i.e. you dab them with a bit of sponge on a stick**, and they roll gently down into the required siding. The pilot can then emerge from its spur, back on to the next required set of coaches, and bring them to the station.

 

**on the better class of model railway, a device in the track lifts up and gives an axle a nudge.

 

*if you have a whole fleet of 08 shunters, you could accept having them trapped at the buffers in the storage sidings. You then don't need the gradient or sponge stick. 

 

I can see that what you really want is a traditional roundy-roundy, with a station on one side and a massive run-through storage yard on the other side. But with a turntable-single-ended fiddle yard, 90% of your operating time will take place in the storage yard, turning engines and running round. What happens in practice is that after half an hour's running you end up with the fiddle yard full of trains all with engines at the wrong end. All running then stops for an hour while you sort them all out.

 

A better solution would be to have 10 trains and 20 engines, and accept that the train engines will be trapped at the end of the fiddle yard until another engine comes and takes their train away. You then have a lot of light engine running to and fro from the MPD for turning, or you could put some engine spurs at the entrance to the fiddle yard. Train engines could then take the next set to station tender-first, and run round in the station or go on the MPD for turning. 

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

Edited February 25, 2021 by martin_wynne

[Enterprisingwestern]

18 hours ago, gordon s said:

Needs a bit of work, but job done.....

 

This is the budget model.....

 

 

You're spending far too much time in hospital Gordon, you've just re-invented the drugs trolley!

 

Mike.

[Barry O]

Gordon

 

It is your layout..rule 1 applies!

I also have an over abundance of stock and motive pwer. Some is boxed in storage cases for use when layouts go to shows. Even with that I intend to do a loco/stock swap when I feel like it. I have added a cassette link onto Leeds (London Road) to make it easier to swap things round. All part of using my railway...

 

Baz

[gordon s]

1 hour ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi Gordon,

 

My suggestion was to use gravity shunting. The storage sidings are on a gentle down gradient* from the entrance, levelling out at the buffers. When the pilot engines arrives at the entrance to the sidings with a set of coaches it stops, detaches from the coaches, and runs forward into a short spur. The guard in the coaches then releases brakes, i.e. you dab them with a bit of sponge on a stick**, and they roll gently down into the required siding. The pilot can then emerge from its spur, back on to the next required set of coaches, and bring them to the station.

 

**on the better class of model railway, a device in the track lifts up and gives an axle a nudge.

 

*if you have a whole fleet of 08 shunters, you could accept having them trapped at the buffers in the storage sidings. You then don't need the gradient or sponge stick. 

 

I can see that what you really want is a traditional roundy-roundy, with a station on one side and a massive run-through storage yard on the other side. But with a turntable-single-ended fiddle yard, 90% of your operating time will take place in the storage yard, turning engines and running round. What happens in practice is that after half an hour's running you end up with the fiddle yard full of trains all with engines at the wrong end. All running then stops for an hour while you sort them all out.

 

A better solution would be to have 10 trains and 20 engines, and accept that the train engines will be trapped at the end of the fiddle yard until another engine comes and takes their train away. You then have a lot of light engine running to and fro from the MPD for turning, or you could put some engine spurs at the entrance to the fiddle yard. Train engines could then take the next set to station tender-first, and run round in the station or go on the MPD for turning. 

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

Thanks Martin, I'm with you. No problem having 20 engines as I have far too many anyway. Don't we all.....

 

.....but surprisingly I have found I have room to rotate an 8' cassette trolley, which can now double as a drugs trolley when I go to hospital. Thanks Mike....

 

When I was a young lad, I recall Peter Denny's train turntable on Buckingham, so it's funny how these things come around. Just been upstairs and the bottom of the trackbed would be 970mm from the floor, so allowing 200mm for the bottom frame and wheels, I could have 7 layers of 110mm each. I suspect that may be too close between the layers, so I'll probably have to come down to 6 at 128mm each. the idea would be a single access road on top of the frame which is pushed up to the incoming road and a train can just run on. There would be a minimal distance to move the cassette down onto a holding position and once all trains had accessed storage, the whole rack can be rotated, so all trains are now facing the right way.

 

Probably a totally hair brained scheme, but I won't know without some drawings and a mock up. Advantages is that it can be moved out of the way easily and shouldn't measure much more than 8' long. Width may be an issue as it has to be stable and of course the wheels etc have to be man enough to support the weight. Centre of gravity will also be important. The last thing you want is everything tipping over.

 

This is my wife's dog grooming trolley I built for her, so something along these lines.....Cassette storage will be a bit bigger I grant you, but the principles are the same.

 

Edited February 25, 2021 by gordon s

[martin_wynne]

Hi Gordon,

 

???

 

You are going to rotate through 180 degrees a tea trolley containing 15 8ft long 00 trains, and none of them are going to derail? And it won't move a fraction while trains are running on and off? And it is going to have some sort of mechanical up-down lift movement? And there is space in your room for you and your visitors as well as a half-rotated trolley?

 

Well ok...

 

Martin.

[SteveyDee68]

3 minutes ago, martin_wynne said:

Hi Gordon,

 

???

 

You are going to rotate through 180 degrees a tea trolley containing 15 8ft long 00 trains, and none of them are going to derail? And it won't move a fraction while trains are running on and off? And it is going to have some sort of mechanical up-down lift movement? And there is space in your room for you and your visitors as well as a half-rotated trolley?

 

Well ok...

 

Martin.

 

Please check out a suggestion by DavidCBroad to exactly that problem in the short thread in the planning forum under Two (or more) Heads Are Better Than One ... or ... Too Late! That Ship Has Sailed!

 

(Sorry, I would provide a direct link but I still don't know how to do it!)

 

Steve S

[SteveyDee68]

3 hours ago, gordon s said:

Where I'm really grateful for input is where I'm stuck on a particular problem and a fresh pair of eyes is a great help. Working on your own can be hard and tunnel vision is often a problem, stopping you seeing the obvious.

 

Gordon, you have put very succinctly what I waffled on about over on the above mentioned thread regarding a mental block I had over operating a model train ferry. Tunnel vision (absolutely no pun intended when discussing model railways!) is something we - and even committees of like minded people - can suffer from and a "fresh pair of eyes" (and a new way of thinking) can often provide a solution.

 

Vive le RMWeb!!

 

Steve S

[gordon s]

59 minutes ago, martin_wynne said:

Hi Gordon,

 

???

 

You are going to rotate through 180 degrees a tea trolley containing 15 8ft long 00 trains, and none of them are going to derail? And it won't move a fraction while trains are running on and off? And it is going to have some sort of mechanical up-down lift movement? And there is space in your room for you and your visitors as well as a half-rotated trolley?

 

Well ok...

 

Martin.

I’m sure you may well be proven right, but sometimes you have to try things. I have used these braked wheels on both my wife’s dog trolley and my mobile saw bench that allows me to move my large De Walt saw around the outside of the house and round to the garden when I’m working out there. The wheels are very free running and it’s easy to move around, not only on flat surfaces but even across our gravel drivel. 
 

The cassettes will be designed to hold trains in place, so possible derailments are something to think about. There is no mechanical lift, just done manually.
 

I’ll never know without trying and it may be the first model doesn’t work, but these things often provide an alternative solution.

 

Will it work? No idea, but worthy of further consideration.

 

 

Edited February 25, 2021 by gordon s

[martin_wynne]

45 minutes ago, SteveyDee68 said:

Sorry, I would provide a direct link but I still don't know how to do it!

 

Here you go Steve:

 

 https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/162631-two-or-more-heads-are-better-than-one-or-too-late-that-ship-has-sailed/&do=findComment&comment=4338320

 

[martin_wynne]

19 minutes ago, gordon s said:

There is no mechanical lift, just done manually.

 

Hi Gordon,

 

Does that mean that you are going to manually extract an object 8ft long from a shelf somewhere near your knees? And then while keeping it perfectly level, lift it up and place it on top of the trolley?

 

I suggest first trying that with a dummy cassette to prove that you can do it. For added interest, lay a couple of yards of track on it, and add a dozen golf balls.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[gordon s]

Where's your spirit of adventure?....

 

They said we'd never get on the moon, let alone Mars, so I'm sure collectively we can come up with a solution. It may be something completely different, but at least we tried.....

 

Some form of latch with a form insert to protect the loco should hold it in place, so being absolutely level shouldn't be an issue.

 

I could even have foam lined, hinged side panels that hold a whole train in place.......Who knows, until you see the real pitfalls.

 

Gordon S. Overdosed on optimism.......

[CHAZ D]

Why not have a "Ferris Wheel"/Tombola  with 2 or more rings held apart by  long bars which have long (Maybe double ? balance clearance  problems) track sections hung and attached by some sort of bearing.  On the outer ring X number of tracks then x/2 tracks inside maybe more rings. The inlet from the baseboard to the "cassettes" would have to protude to allow attachment. It would also need a locking system. When moving it would be much gentler on the stock as a slight swing would not necessarily dislodge the stock.

Maybe my warped mind is not working properley.

[Regularity]

1 hour ago, CHAZ D said:

Why not have a "Ferris Wheel"/Tombola  with 2 or more rings held apart by  long bars which have long (Maybe double ? balance clearance  problems) track sections hung and attached by some sort of bearing.  On the outer ring X number of tracks then x/2 tracks inside maybe more rings. The inlet from the baseboard to the "cassettes" would have to protude to allow attachment. It would also need a locking system. When moving it would be much gentler on the stock as a slight swing would not necessarily dislodge the stock.

Maybe my warped mind is not working properley.

I think it would need to have the appropriate (fairground organ) music to accompany it as it rotated, though...

[Regularity]

1 hour ago, gordon s said:

They said we'd never get on the moon

Are you sure they did?

[martin_wynne]

1 hour ago, gordon s said:

I'm sure collectively we can come up with a solution.

 

Of course we can.

 

 

Martin.

[Phil Himsworth]

15 minutes ago, Regularity said:

I think it would need to have the appropriate (fairground organ) music to accompany it as it rotated, though...

I was thinking more "Welcome to the Wheel... Of... Trains!"

 

<spins train storage device to see which train runs next>

ticktickticktickticktick..tick...tick.......tick.........tick.........

[gordon s]

1 hour ago, CHAZ D said:

Why not have a "Ferris Wheel"/Tombola  with 2 or more rings held apart by  long bars which have long (Maybe double ? balance clearance  problems) track sections hung and attached by some sort of bearing.  On the outer ring X number of tracks then x/2 tracks inside maybe more rings. The inlet from the baseboard to the "cassettes" would have to protude to allow attachment. It would also need a locking system. When moving it would be much gentler on the stock as a slight swing would not necessarily dislodge the stock.

Maybe my warped mind is not working properley.

 

Well in-between fitting decoders into Deltic and an A1, I've been nipping in from time to time and Chaz you win the prize for suggesting something way beyond my capabilities......

 

The appeal of cassettes is the whole unit is portable and can be wheeled about. It may be 8' is a bit ambitious and thinking about my dog grooming table it may be a wheeled crate holding twice as many 4' cassettes could be a better alternative. That could easily slide under the shed board when not in use and a 4' balancing act may be easier than 8'. I'll find out sooner or later......

[Barry O]

if you have a clip on cover with foam in it (as used on the likes of wibdenshaw) the stock can stay in place. The 4 foot length sounds more manageable - could you "borrow" the grooming trolley for some trials? in previous times these would be a "Proof of Principle "(PoP) trial.

 

Baz

[martin_wynne]

Hi Gordon,

 

Did the coach sets running up and down the ECML get turned end-for-end overnight?

 

So you don't need to turn the whole train round.

 

You need 3 trolleys, all 2ft-6in front to back, with 15 tracks on them. Which fit end to end.  1ft long + 6ft long  + 1ft long.

 

The locos are on the short 1ft trolleys. The short trolleys can be pulled out, turned end-for-end and/or swapped with each other.

 

The coaches are on 15 tracks on the long middle trolley, which can move endways just enough to get the loco trolleys into position, but doesn't need to rotate. 

 

No lifting needed, unless you have more than 15 locos. Maybe a mixture of fixed tracks on the loco trolleys and a slot for one or more cassettes.

 

The lower shelves of the tea trolleys can serve their proper purpose, with a selection of fancy cakes and cucumber sandwiches.

 

Martin.

Edited February 25, 2021 by martin_wynne

[gordon s]

11 minutes ago, Barry O said:

if you have a clip on cover with foam in it (as used on the likes of wibdenshaw) the stock can stay in place. The 4 foot length sounds more manageable - could you "borrow" the grooming trolley for some trials? in previous times these would be a "Proof of Principle "(PoP) trial.

 

Baz

 
No chance Baz. It all fitted out with drawers and cupboards. It also sits downstairs in the kitchen and there’s no chance at all of getting it upstairs. It weighs a ton as I tend to over engineer things......

 

[Denbridge]

5 hours ago, gordon s said:

I’m sure you may well be proven right, but sometimes you have to try things. I have used these braked wheels on both my wife’s dog trolley and my mobile saw bench that allows me to move my large De Walt saw around the outside of the house and round to the garden when I’m working out there. The wheels are very free running and it’s easy to move around, not only on flat surfaces but even across our gravel drivel. 
 

The cassettes will be designed to hold trains in place, so possible derailments are something to think about. There is no mechanical lift, just done manually.
 

I’ll never know without trying and it may be the first model doesn’t work, but these things often provide an alternative solution.

 

Will it work? No idea, but worthy of further consideration.

 

 

I would be very concerned about the prospect of bending down to near floor level and then safely lifting an 8' cassette to layout height. Especially as one grows older. Im only in my late 50's and find lifting my friends shorter cassettes from a shelf just under 18" to layout height rather uncomfortable.