Eastwood Town - A tribute to Gordon's modelling.

[Dan6470]

Hi Gordon,

 

I've been following your progress with great interest and appreciate the difficulty that you've had over the last weeks with your injury. Nevertheless the description of your methods for track construction is very encouraging for those modellers that are wanting to try to construct their own turnouts but haven't done so yet, I include myself amongst those modellers. We have communicated on the subject previously but just now reading through the Eastwood Town - Update I have a couple of questions that hopefully you can help me with.

 

Now, there are several ways of making pcb track and this is the one that works for me. I'm not suggesting that this is the right way and it's not intended as a teaching exercise. I said at the beginning that the critical part of a turnout in my experience is the check rail distance from the crossing and not the actual track gauge. When I first started making my own track, I was gauging the outer rails from the crossing and then setting the check rails from the outer rails. Having now read a lot more about track issues, I changed my assembly method to set the check rails first, so the next thing is to cut and form the check rails and then gauge them from the crossing rails.

 

 

 

The next stage for me is to now add the outer rails. The important thing for me is the smooth flowing lines of any trackwork and whilst Templot is very good, I also use my own eyes to check that the rails are in a nice flowing curve and do not have any minor kinks. I only tack solder every few sleepers at this point in case something is not quite right.

 

 

 

 

 

So that just leaves the point blades to be filed. These are done by hand using a needle file. Once formed and cut to the correct length, these are gauged from the outer rails. To simplify things, particularly on hidden turnouts, I just use PCB strip as a tie bar, replacing one of the normal sleepers. The ends of the blades are carefully gapped using the 1mm shim and then soldered to the tie bar.

 

 

 

.....and basically that's it. A custom built curved turnout that cost a fraction of a RTR one and took less than 3 hours to build. The last job is to check all is OK and then solder the rest of the sleeper/rail joins and lighly cut through the copper strip with a slitting disc to isolate both rails.

 

 

Making pcb track is not that difficult once you have the right tools. A set of gauges, a decent soldering iron and a bit of patience is all that is required. It's a great way to spend a few hours and very rewarding once you have finished.....Add to that the cost savings that can be had and the freedom it gives in layout design and it scores all round.

 

Go on, give it a try....

 

From the above photographs I notice that each of the gauges that you are using have four grooves in them. I'm assume that the gauges can be used as roller track gauge and also for check rail gauge. Can you please confirm? Also can you please advise what standard you have adopted. Clearly high, I mean with regard to the gauge DOGA intermediate, which I think they call universal now, DOGA Fine or 00-SF.

 

Thanks

 

Dan

 

Ps. Do be aware that any answers you give will probably result in further questions

[Dan6470]

Hi Gordon

 

I don't understand why the photos didn't show up but the post that I refer to is number 28 on the second page of Eastwood Town.

 

But here, hopefully, are a couple of the photographs.

 

 

 

Dan

[gordon s]

Hi Dan, my hand has virtually recovered now and I started work on the layout proper once again this afternoon. Thanks for your best wishes...

 

Gauge wise, I started off with DOGA fine as a standard which is 14.5mm between check rails and 1mm flange gap. Those are the steel gauges in the second picture. I still use them for setting plain track as the gauge is unchanged at 16.5mm. The problem I had is that I have a reasonable quantity of RTR locos from Hornby, Bachmann and Heljan, all of which would have needed to be opened out to 14.8mm B2B. That I could have coped with, but I also have several DJH kits fitted with Romford wheels and axles. These are 14.4mm B2B and to be honest I'm not sure how to change the B2B's on these locos. Whether you have to fit different axles or have the wheels skimmed or fit spacer shims, I don't know and in any case, I didn't want to mess around with these locos.

 

I decided the easy way out would be to adopt the DOGA Intermediate standard which is 14.1mm between check rails and 1.2mm flange gap. This meant a minor downgrade in appearance and the odd click and clatter with some fine wheels as they cross over the frog, but was the easiest way out. The brass gauges you see in the first pic are to that standard. The flat on the gauge allows you to still use the gauge over the top of checkrails and yes, the four grooves allow you to set check rails. I also use a 1.2mm flat shim for setting check rail gaps.

 

I'm still learning to build pointwork and every so often I do make mistakes and have to go back and check dimensions and perhaps tweak some of the gaps until all types of stock run through without problem. When I started I gauged the check rails from the outer rails and found I did have problems. The critical dimension for me is the distance between the check rails, so I do the check rails first and then gauge the outer rail from the check rail. Once that is set, I work back from the check rail position to make sure I have a nice flowing curve and finally gauge the switch rail from the outer stock rails. I know this probably sounds back to front to some, but it just happens to work for me.

 

If you read the various posts on RMWeb about track building you will see there are many different ways of approaching it. This just happens to be the one that suits me. Try several different methods and then adopt what you feel comfortable with.

 

I was considering building a couple of turnouts in 00-SF, but sadly the guy who made the track gauges died a few months back and a new supplier has not yet come on stream. Once they are available I may get some to see how they compare.

 

Hopefully I'll be able to post a further update in the next couple of weeks. I've just started today on the high level goods relief road, where various industrial buildings will be set. I've also decided to remove the cutting wall on the inside of the layout so that opens up that complex and allows a much better view of the trains passing though. It will also allow some low level scenic work, perhaps a footpath at lineside or even a water filled gully. It's great to have a little flexibility and it's impossible to plan a layout to the n'th degree and get everything just so. Sometimes the reality is not quite what you envisaged.

 

I hope that helps. Feel free to ask as many questions as you want...

[sulzer27jd]

Looking good, that is a sweet piece of trackwork on the viaduct. 9F also looking good, work stained but not overdone.

 

Hope to see more soon.

 

j

[Dan6470]

Hi Gordon,

 

Thanks for getting back to me. I too have considered the adoption of 00-SF for my turnouts, the arguments/justification seem to outweigh any negative aspects. Although it does seem strange that the Roller Track Gauge and the Check Rail Gauge haven't been milled onto the same gauge as with the gauges in your photographs. A shortage of the roller track gauge for 00-SF will probably cause me to go towards the DOGA Universal/intermediate gauge.

 

With regard to your brass Roller Track Gauge/Check Rail Gauge did you obtain it from C+L,? I understand from a previous post that you construct your turnouts using C+L components having previously found that the SMP rails measure 0.82mm as opposed to 0.92mm for scale BS-95R bullhead rail. I'm assuming that SMP gauges are set for 0.82mm rails.

 

Dan

[gordon s]

Hi Gordon,

 

Thanks for getting back to me. I too have considered the adoption of 00-SF for my turnouts, the arguments/justification seem to outweigh any negative aspects. Although it does seem strange that the Roller Track Gauge and the Check Rail Gauge haven't been milled onto the same gauge as with the gauges in your photographs. A shortage of the roller track gauge for 00-SF will probably cause me to go towards the DOGA Universal/intermediate gauge.

 

With regard to your brass Roller Track Gauge/Check Rail Gauge did you obtain it from C+L,? I understand from a previous post that you construct your turnouts using C+L components having previously found that the SMP rails measure 0.82mm as opposed to 0.92mm for scale BS-95R bullhead rail. I'm assuming that SMP gauges are set for 0.82mm rails.

 

Dan

 

 

I did get some from C & L, although I also got some from Mainly Trains in the early days. I've just bought 100m of rail from C & L as they had some on offer. It's the same material as SMP but the C & L width. £35 for a 100m. Seems perfectly OK.

[martin_wynne]

Although it does seem strange that the Roller Track Gauge and the Check Rail Gauge haven't been milled onto the same gauge as with the gauges in your photographs.

Hi Dan,

 

I don't want to hijack Gordon's layout topic with technical discussions, but there are very good reasons for using a separate check gauge tool and crossing flangeway gauge, rather than a single combined gauge tool.

 

If wing rail and check rail slots are combined in a single 4-slot roller gauge, then:

 

1. It's impossible to construct V-crossings on sharp curves with gauge-widening.

 

2. It confuses the setting of the V-crossing flangeway with the check gauge. These are two completely independent settings and shouldn't be mixed up. The flangeway gap dimension at the check rail is the instantaneous difference between the check gauge and the track gauge at that location. It's not necessarily the same as the V-crossing flangeway gap at the wing rail. And it's not necessarily the same for every V-crossing, i.e. if there is any gauge-widening.

 

3. If there is a problem with the track, it is impossible to see which rail is in error, using a combined multi-slot gauge tool.

 

The rules are:

 

a. Use a track gauge tool to set the running rails. This can be a roller gauge with two slots, or a triangular 3-point gauge to introduce automatic gauge-widening.

 

b. Use a check gauge tool to set the check rails. This is usually a two-slot roller gauge, with a flat-portion for gauging from the nose of the vee. This dimension is the most important in constructing track. You could just about get away with constructing the other rails by eye from the template, but not the check rails.

 

c. Use a crossing flangeway gauge to set the V-crossing flangeway gap between the vee and the wing rails. This is usually a small flat piece of metal of the required thickness, usually sourced from precision shim or a feeler gauge or similar. Under no circumstances should this be used to set the check rails -- use the check gauge tool as in b. above.

 

The EMGS and Scalefour and other societies supply sets of the 3 gauge tools as above, so that the above rules can be followed. They don't supply combined roller gauges.

 

The plain track 00-SF roller gauge tools which were available from the late Russ Simpson in the USA will soon be replaced with a similar tool sourced in the UK. Brian Tulley can update you on the current position, see:

 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/00-SF/message/966

 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/00-SF/message/961

 

In the meantime, the available 00-SF 3-point gauge tools can be used as an alternative to the roller gauges.

 

regards,

 

Martin

[gordon s]

Hi Martin, you're always welcome on my thread and I really appreciate your knowledgable input...

 

Couple of questions though as I'm getting a little confused about what applies to 00 and what applies to EM or P4 etc.

 

When we spoke about three point gauges a week or two back, you told me it wasn't necessary for 16.5mm gauge. Is your statement in a) not applicable to 00?

 

You say the check gauge tool is necessary and available from the EMGS or Scalefour Society. That's great, but I guess they don't do them for 00. Are they only for EM or P4 where the flangeway gaps are much smaller?

 

Does anyone make or supply a check gauge tool for 1.2mm DOGA Intermediate build or do I have to make them myself?

[martin_wynne]

Couple of questions though as I'm getting a little confused about what applies to 00 and what applies to EM or P4 etc.

 

When we spoke about three point gauges a week or two back, you told me it wasn't necessary for 16.5mm gauge. Is your statement in a) not applicable to 00?

Hi Gordon,

 

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

 

No gauge widening is ever needed for 16.5mm gauge in normal conditions -- i.e. standard 00 back-to-back: 14.4mm/14.5mm, and sensible curves, say 18" minimum radius.

 

Some gauge widening on sharp curves may be needed for other 00 conditions -- i.e. using 14.8mm back-to-back (DOGA-Fine), or 16.2mm track gauge (00-SF).

 

(Except for DOGA-Fine) you can regard 16.5mm gauge as already including gauge-widening for sharp curves, and that 00-SF removes it where it isn't needed on straight track and gentle curves.

 

I made a longish post about the 00 gauge standards recently, at: http://www.rmweb.co....post__p__137494

 

 

You say the check gauge tool is necessary and available from the EMGS or Scalefour Society. That's great, but I guess they don't do them for 00. Are they only for EM or P4 where the flangeway gaps are much smaller?

 

Does anyone make or supply a check gauge tool for 1.2mm DOGA Intermediate?

YES. The check gauge dimension you want is 15.2mm min, and it is exactly the same in 00-SF, because 00-SF uses the same unmodified 00 wheels. This means that the 00-SF check gauge tool is the one you want:

 

v = vee

w = wing rail

c = check rail

r= running rail

 

 

My reference to the EMGS and Scalefour societies was merely to illustrate that the more "technical" modellers don't use combined roller gauges.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[gordon s]

Thanks Martin, I'll get in touch with Brian.

 

I want to build a couple of turnouts in 00-SF to see how they look and how noticable (if at all) the change in gauge appears.

[Dan6470]

I did get some from C & L, although I also got some from Mainly Trains in the early days. I've just bought 100m of rail from C & L as they had some on offer. It's the same material as SMP but the C & L width. £35 for a 100m. Seems perfectly OK.

 

Hi Gordon

 

I trust that will be the 4RA201J Code 75 Nickel Silver, 12% NI, Bullhead - 100 yards. £35 seems a pretty good price.

 

Dan

[Dan6470]

Hi Martin,

 

Thanks for the info ... I sure am learning a lot here;).

 

Dan

[martin_wynne]

I trust that will be the 4RA201J Code 75 Nickel Silver, 12% NI, Bullhead - 100 yards. £35 seems a pretty good price.

Hi Dan,

 

Brian Lewis bought this in as a clearance line, see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/finescale/message/625

 

He is open to negotiations for larger quantities, see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/finescale/message/627

 

Note that it is 12% Nickel, "yellow" Nickel-Silver.

 

His normal rail product is "Hi-Ni" 18% Nickel, "white" Nickel-Silver. This looks much more like steel rail, and doesn't tarnish or need cleaning.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[gordon s]

Can't believe a couple of months have just flown by since I started this corner area. Of course burning my hand didn't help things, but accidents can happen and in my case, often do.....

 

I hope this may be of interest, but this is how I deal with multiple levels. This really has been developed over a period of time but seems to be working with clearance between layers set at 70mm and touch wood, no clash points as yet. Apologies for banging on about it, but Templot has been a boon in laying this complex section out without cutting a single piece of wood. The other thing I have noticed is that every single thing takes so much longer that you would expect. I now know I was daft to even contemplate this layout whilst I was working as it seems I've been working most of the daytime hours on this corner and still have some way to go.

 

The basic frame is constructed of two 12mm ply side frames separated with 20mm blocks as per Barry Norman's technique. The creates a very strong beam 44mm wide and 90mm deep. Each frame is 1200mm deep and 1100mm wide and has just four legs, which are 50 x 50 with an adjustable foot for levelling. In essence you end up with a very strong frame, almost like the base to a dining table without the top. All the modular sections are then attached to the frame by way of 50 x 50 blocks which determine the height of the track section. The frame is 925mm high and the highest level set at 1200mm.

 

This is the bare frame plus some 50 x 50 supports.

 

 

The first section to go in place is the top level which carries the goods relief road and onto which the backscene will be affixed. All of these modules are constructed using 12mm ply as the track bed and 6mm mdf side rails which form a U section and provide a very strong monocoque structure. The wiring still has to be done and scenic work started, but you can get an impression of the eventual layout.

 

 

The next section is the start of the 1:100 climb from the folded loop up to Eastwood Town terminus. Thankfully the gradient looks fine and I don't anticipate any problems with steam locos and 7/8 coaches.

 

 

The folded eight has to dive under the two outer loops at this point and this next section will have the double tracks in a tunnel with the entrance just to the left of the signal box, beyond the double junction.

 

 

The final section is really quite complex and forms a long sweeping curve. It took ages to get the board shape correct and eventually I had to make it from two large pieces which were routed and jointed using ply biscuits. The inside tracks go off to the shed and also give direct access to the turntable. The outer four are part of the folded eight. Eventually I had to lay the large curved turnout across two boards but the position was moved several times to ensure the Tortoise motor didn't foul anything.

 

 

The new junction is now complete with a switched crossing and the trailing crossover will now provide access in and out of the shed complex.

 

 

The final bit I have been experimenting with is a backscene to take the eye away from the blank wall. I'm still undecided how to do this, so am always open to suggestion. This is just a trial with 2mm mdf and duck tape as I didn't have a piece long enough. I suspect I will go for 4mm mdf in 2.4m sections with a height between 300 and 400mm.

 

 

I'm happy to say I'm now further on than I have ever been before and there is every chance this one may get completed.

[Pete Harvey]

"WOW" that look good Gordon, at this pace I sure that you will get it finished it looks great.

 

Pete

[gwrrob]

Gordon.Thats really impressive.You're doing a fabulous job there. What are you going to use for the backscene ?

[gordon s]

Gordon.Thats really impressive.You're doing a fabulous job there. What are you going to use for the backscene ?

 

I'm not sure yet Rob. Ive ordered one of the ID backscenes to see how they look as I couldn't find an urban backscene at all. Peco had one but to be honest it looked pretty dated compared to the photographic ones. I think there was one on the Scalescenes layout where you could download a grey sky and then add your own choice of pics. I did find one supplier that might have been interesting. They talked of their library of shots but didn't go into any detail. It was three intials, something like KRP backscenes, but I'm blowed if I can find it again. This particular section is about 12' long, but I'll need another 12' long and two 18' long to complete the picture. The scene under the window will only be about 6" high as I'm pretty stuck for space there, but otherwise I can have 12" - 18" on the other walls.

 

As I said, I'd welcome any suggestions.

[amdaley]

That looks really super.You are doing a great job on the woodwork & track. Watch that radiator tucked into the corner. Don't have it to high or it may warp things. Keep the photos coming as this is going to be a smashing layout.

[gwrrob]

I'm not sure yet Rob. Ive ordered one of the ID backscenes to see how they look as I couldn't find an urban backscene at all. Peco had one but to be honest it looked pretty dated compared to the photographic ones. I think there was one on the Scalescenes layout where you could download a grey sky and then add your own choice of pics. I did find one supplier that might have been interesting. They talked of their library of shots but didn't go into any detail. It was three intials, something like KRP backscenes, but I'm blowed if I can find it again. This particular section is about 12' long, but I'll need another 12' long and two 18' long to complete the picture. The scene under the window will only be about 6" high as I'm pretty stuck for space there, but otherwise I can have 12" - 18" on the other walls.

 

As I said, I'd welcome any suggestions.

 

I used the ID ones on mine.See my layout for them .I think they're available in two width sizes as well.I was pleased how mine turned out.Don't use the Peco ones please !

[gordon s]

That looks really super.You are doing a great job on the woodwork & track. Watch that radiator tucked into the corner. Don't have it to high or it may warp things. Keep the photos coming as this is going to be a smashing layout.

 

 

Thanks for that. The rad is only on low in winter and I have cut the boards back above the rad to allow the heat to rise. This room is part of the house and double glazed and well insulated, so it should be OK. The staircase is open to the rest of the house and warm air does rise up from below. I'm not 100% comfortable about it, but the options were limited.

 

Excuse me asking, but were you the person building a large layout in Ireland with a terminus on a peninsula? If you are, any news on your own layout build? Unless I've missed it, I hadn't seen anything since the old web folded.

[PhilH]

Any chance of a tutorial on how you made those white decorative supports......? B)

[PhilC]

Any chance of a tutorial on how you made those white decorative supports......? B)

 

 

[amdaley]

Thanks for that. The rad is only on low in winter and I have cut the boards back above the rad to allow the heat to rise. This room is part of the house and double glazed and well insulated, so it should be OK. The staircase is open to the rest of the house and warm air does rise up from below. I'm not 100% comfortable about it, but the options were limited.

 

Excuse me asking, but were you the person building a large layout in Ireland with a terminus on a peninsula? If you are, any news on your own layout build? Unless I've missed it, I hadn't seen anything since the old web folded.

 

Hi Gordon.

 

Yes thats me all right. Looking at your skill levels leaves my efforts light years behind but I have fun & thats what its all about. I am still plugging away with no pressure to ever have it finished. I have usually only a few hours a weeks to work on mine & like yourself I work alone but not by choice. Where I live Model Railways would not be top of most peoples lists

 

Even so often my partner & I travel to various places to see railways of any kind. In April we spent a very pleasant week in the UK. My partner was doing an art course in Luton so I traveled to the surrounding counties & towns looking for anything I could find. I must say I thoroughly enjoyed myself & met some great people. We will be back there again later on in the year.

 

You can see some photos of my efforts here. http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_daly_ireland/

 

You were a lucky man to get those Alan Downes buildings. The man is a genius. I also spotted your NCE system. Same as myself. I moved to the wireless version recently. The freedom it gives you is really great.

 

Tony.

[gordon s]

Thank you so much for posting that link Tony. I'm really pleased that you have made so much progress. The layout looks really great and deserves to be shared with a much larger audience, so come on, start a new thread on here. Some of your scenic work and backscenes are very good indeed.

 

Hoping to see that wonderful terminus soon....

[Scale7JB]

Looking spectacular as ever !

 

Regarding the backscene, I would be very careful about what you use... I'd worry that most backscenes would bring down the standard of the layout... Is it an option to not have a back scene at all ? I'm just thinking about great large layouts such as Gresley Beat.. Do they use a backscene ??

 

I think I would be tempted to have a very nice lighting rig with direct lens bulbs that highlighed 'just' the layout and somehow flag the light off of the wall so that it would be dark an invisible if a blind was pulled over the skylight etc... Just a thought..

 

JB.