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Model Rail DRS MK2a Escort Coach Pack


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Did you read the post from dibber above ?

They can't re run limited editions as that defeats the whole definition.

I'd think also that they'd rather definitely sell 500, then make another 500 only to sell 250.

 

Unfortunately this is the way the hobby is, batch runs , and if you don't buy it when it's out you miss your chance and have to pay eBay prices if you're that bothered.

 

Thank you very much for the very informative reply.

 

It would be fantastic to see a re-run of this pair of coaches.

 

Yes unfortunately there are a lot of users who will buy one or multiple of the same limited/special/collectors item and then sell them on Ebay for a fortune. It's a shame that a minority do this because it spoils it for the majority because the actual collectors can't get there hands on the model they want without paying an extortionate amount of money for it.

 

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Did you read the post from dibber above ?

They can't re run limited editions as that defeats the whole definition.

I'd think also that they'd rather definitely sell 500, then make another 500 only to sell 250.

 

Unfortunately this is the way the hobby is, batch runs , and if you don't buy it when it's out you miss your chance and have to pay eBay prices if you're that bothered.

 

He did and made a perfectly reasonable point. This whole limited edition business is a nonsense as it just creates this overpriced market for arbitragers on ebay, and actually provides little benefit to "real" modellers or even the producers of these limited edition. Batch production has no relation to "limited edition", and this seems to be the problem MR and many others (including Hornby and other magazines) are creating for themselves and us.

 

A batch of say 500 units of an item has no impact on sales. It is only when you place an artificial limit on future releases that an artificial inflated value applies. By stating no further models will be made, they are effectively ruining it for everyone who doesn't order in time, hasn't got the money at that time or didn't know. For what benefit? If you watch MR's models they have had to discount  models (and still are) to sell these "limited editions". Similarly Key have had their exclusive 66 and Gresley B17 for sale for years (and I got a discounted Gresley a while back). So saying it is a limited edition actually provides little benefit I can see to seller or buyers, and benefits only ebay resellers.

 

Did those modellers (not resellers) who bought these DRS coaches care it was a limited edition? I very much doubt it, as it has no impact on them modelling a DRS train like posters on here. Making limited editions screws over modellers to the profit of arbitragers. You only have to see the mess Hornby have got themselves into with Web only exclusives, limited editions etc.

 

Personally I see limited editions as a con and it would be nice if those in the marketplace would perhaps stop placing silly artificial limits on what we can buy. It is clear some of these batch items sell quickly like these DRS coaches, and others don't and become expensive stock sitting on a shelf. However few gain if the successful items can't be repeated. A repeat run of DRS coaches would sell IMHO due to the recent and current availability of locos, but MR have tied their hands and they themselves can't adapt and respond to make some money, and presumably recoup the investment in their other 'limited editions' they have sitting on their shelves. I will assume that a re-run of a successful batch is a lot cheaper than a new commission, so arguably it doesn't make any business sense (from where I'm sitting!)

 

For the record I'm not having a go a MR or any particular firm, just the whole limited edition business that is restricting the potential availability of desireable models in the market.

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I agree with you to some extent, but the problem that Model Rail and others face, is that Bachmann have a minimum batch size of 500 (or I think it is actually 512).  Most of these limited editions have relatively limited appeal across the hobby and therefore there simply isn't enough demand to make multiple batch runs.

 

If Model Rail get Bachmann to produce 500 models and there is demand for only 450, then the remaining 50 models take ages to shift and need to be discounted: you've highlighted a couple of examples.  The 'profit' for the commissioner lies in the sale of these final models, no matter how long it takes to get rid of them.  Under this scenario, any E-bay speculators will not make the 'premium' that some models make and anyone purchasing a model to sell on E-bay may have to sell at cost or even a loss.

 

However, if there is demand for 600 models, then there will be 100 modellers who are dissappointed and will have to aquire a model from someone who successfully bought a model from Model Rail directly.  If three-quarters of the models (375) were sold to modellers and one quarter (125) to speculators, then the E-bay sellers collectively have a supply of 125 models and 100 potentially willing purchasers and can therefore effectively demand what they want for the limited number of models that are up for sale on E-bay.  High prices will remain until most of the speculators have sold their stock.

 

Of course if Model Rail were to commission another batch of models, that is no guarantee that it would be profitable for them.  If they produced another 500 and only 100 of them sold (ie those who didn't get what they wanted first time around), then they would stand to make a significant loss from the second batch.  That is why Chris Leigh highlighted that they would consider increasing the batch size of the first run if they thought that there was sufficient demand and in some cases they have done just that with 750 models being produced: one of the Network Rail coaches being an example of this.  However, this decision has to be made BEFORE the model is actually produced and is a decision based on pre-orders. 

 

Unfortunately, there is little anyone such as Model Rail can do about this.  If you want a relatively obscure prototype and it is to be produced as a limited edition, then you have to buy it at the time or hope one turns up at a price you can afford at a later date.

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If the coaches appear on Ebay I understand that they want to make some money on them because they are a Limited Edition and something a bit more special than the every day model but at the same time you have to draw a line as an individual as to how much you are willing to pay for a model. For these two coaches I would pay £130 maybe £140 tops on Ebay for which would allow the seller to double there money from the original selling price of £60 or so and I could add another two coaches for my collection. For me anything above £140 is really out of the question because when you consider what else you could buy for your model railway £140 goes a long way. For that you could buy a Bachmann Freightliner 70005, more Dapol IOAs, track, signals etc.

 

I think it's down to the individual to draw there own conclusion on what they will pay for certain models.

 

A few months ago a lot of these coaches came up on Ebay roughly all at the same time. I think the cheapest pair to sell were for £175. For me £87.50 per coach when they were originally £30 per coach is way too much to pay. Considering that all the seller is doing is adding a photo to Ebay, a short description and an extortionate price. It's not as if the model has received any modification or a repaint or anything it's just straight from the manufacturer condition.

 

The sellers know that they can charge whatever price they want for these coaches just because there Limited Edition, the run was a few years ago (which means that several people won't have bought them originally and will probably still be on the look out for them), there very unique, not many people even respray these two. The only reason I can think of is that they assume everyone bought the Limited Edition models when released.  

 

I think that's why this pair often sell for £250 or more, in some cases £300 or even more.

 

It would be nice to have this pair but in fairness I'm not too fussed because I have just bought six DRS Compass MK2s and when the price tags still remain extremely high for these two I'm not willing to spend that sort of cash on two coaches.

 

Just as a comparison I paid less than £300 for six DRS MK2s when some people are paying that for this pair of coaches.

 

For me that's the sort of price distinction and quantity distinction I draw between models. Would you rather have two coaches or six coaches for £300, well the route I took was six. For me these two coaches aren't worth £300.

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Some people put them on ebay because if circumstance, as i put above i lost my job back in 2010 so a lot of stuff had to go to pay the bills, ive also had a major cut back of stock recently that has been sat in my stock box doing nothing for years so i decided to move it on, one of those items being the once very sought after model rail 66 in medite livery, it went for £99, similarly i sold my fastline 56 with howes sounds and that went for all of £150

 

I also sold my drs twin pack 37 when times were tough which i deeply regretted but it had to be, luckily i picked up a replacement pair on ebay a few months back for £190 posted, to me paying the extra £40 on top of what i originally paid was worth it to me, also worth taking into account the price of the new DRS 37 is over £100 now so to me it was a bargain, although again they are just sat in my stock box doing nothing!

 

I think another factor for some is 'how current' models are, when the medite 66 commanded high prices it was still running about in that livery but has now been repainted (for course Hornby have released a lower quality version in the main range so that will effect prices to a lesser degree) similarly the fastline 56 is no longer current (for 56302) and had a narrow timeframe so demand for it may have wained amongst 'prototypical' layout operators

 

Of all my previous models i wish i hadnt sold the 56 is quite high up there but if one were to come up for sale now at the right price i wouldnt buy it

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Firstly it is irrelevant whether the model has sold out by MR or whoever as to what happens on Ebay. People will buy stuff on Ebay at outrageous prices even when it is freely available via other sources. Ebay is a bubble (as are all 'auction' settings) where despite the immediate availability of search engines on people's PC's they will still pay well over the odds. I bought a car-related item from a main dealer. For reasons I cannot explain they were being sold on Ebay for twice the price you could pay from the dealer. I bought a quantity at the dealer and sold the lot at twice the price despite being freely availble (even online!) at the normal price. Ebay speculation and arbitrage has little or nothing to do with actual availability of the product.

 

The later point about batch size is a red herring. Whoever commissions a model is taking a punt, and they can only guess in advance what will sell. That is the basics of retailing, but as far as I can see has little or no bearing on why MR or whoever would then say "this is a once only limited edition". My question is what is the benefit to MR as the commissioner/vendor of saying that? My argument is that there may be little or none and it may in fact be counter-productive.

 

This is where it is possibly counter-productive. Interest in things yellow seems to have waned, hence perhaps the NR genny vans not selling out. Interest in DRS stuff remains high. However the business model you describe possibly limits their ability to turn a profit (I stress this is all IMHO and based on no inside knowledge). Ideally one needs to be responsive to the market (manufacturers' schedules permitting!!) and get another set of DRS coaches produced and selling, whilst discounting of using other methods to move existing stuck stock, exactly as Hornby, Bachmann etc do. Slow selling stock costs money. But with this limited edition business model MR are stuck with slower sellers that presumably they won't discount to take a loss on and can't restock on the stuff that moves quickly. I wonder at what point in time hanging onto the last few of an item costs more than selling them off at a discount? The Trans-Pennine 47 has been around for some years (since 2012?) yet is still priced at £116, yet I can pick up a brand new Bachmann 47 to the same standard in a more popular livery for less than £70 now. But maybe they are selling quietly in the background.

 

As before, it is purely my own view that this limited edition stuff is overplayed and counterproductive. Hornby have appeared to take it to its absurd extreme with Web Exclusive Limited Editions that are now heavily discounted at retailers everywhere :butcher: .

 

I wish Chris and MR well and hope the models all sell. I bought the NR gen van and am very pleased with it. I am also sorely tempted by the USA Tank, despite being firmly D&E. It looks lovely and I'd be surprised if that doesn't sell out. I am also hoping MR and Hornby Mag will [heavily] discount their class 66's too ;) And a re-run of the DRS coaches please :)

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Or the model rail scotland 158 effect

 

Yes, I bought two of these Limited Editions when they were released a few years back.  My intention was to renumber one of them, but then Bachmann brought out an almost identical model in their main range with a different number, which saved me the bother.  Whilst one of the Limited Edition models has been round the club layout hundreds of times, the other remains in a condition that I could put it on E-bay as unused and unopened condition, though I doubt it could be classed as an investment.  If I ever finish my home layout, it may still be renumbered as a spare.

 

I guess that the only way to get another set of Escort Coaches commissioned, would be to produce them in a slightly different format (eg weathered).  Do they still have the same DRS branding today?  If that has changed, then it wouldn't be unknown to see another limited edition with the revised livery.

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I got the escort coaches at the time - and the Bachmann Nuclear Flask Wagon plus some DRS 37's and 66's in the illusion of going Nuclear...

But it came to nothing and the coaches and the FNA were never even taken out of their boxes..

I had no idea I was sitting on a potential gold mine rather than a nuclear waste dump..

I wonder how many others are in a similar situation?

There are probably quite a few owners of these now 'Hot' properties who are quite ignorant of the fact...

Now should I put them all on eBay and potentially make a killing?

or ...

Take mercy on some worthy modellers and offer them for reasonable money on RMweb?

or...

Wait until the nuclear bug reappears? Which is unlikely as my current layout is looking more like the Austrian alps by the minute... :)

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He did and made a perfectly reasonable point. This whole limited edition business is a nonsense as it just creates this overpriced market for arbitragers on ebay, and actually provides little benefit to "real" modellers or even the producers of these limited edition. Batch production has no relation to "limited edition", and this seems to be the problem MR and many others (including Hornby and other magazines) are creating for themselves and us.

 

A batch of say 500 units of an item has no impact on sales. It is only when you place an artificial limit on future releases that an artificial inflated value applies. By stating no further models will be made, they are effectively ruining it for everyone who doesn't order in time, hasn't got the money at that time or didn't know. For what benefit? If you watch MR's models they have had to discount  models (and still are) to sell these "limited editions". Similarly Key have had their exclusive 66 and Gresley B17 for sale for years (and I got a discounted Gresley a while back). So saying it is a limited edition actually provides little benefit I can see to seller or buyers, and benefits only ebay resellers.

 

Did those modellers (not resellers) who bought these DRS coaches care it was a limited edition? I very much doubt it, as it has no impact on them modelling a DRS train like posters on here. Making limited editions screws over modellers to the profit of arbitragers. You only have to see the mess Hornby have got themselves into with Web only exclusives, limited editions etc.

 

Personally I see limited editions as a con and it would be nice if those in the marketplace would perhaps stop placing silly artificial limits on what we can buy. It is clear some of these batch items sell quickly like these DRS coaches, and others don't and become expensive stock sitting on a shelf. However few gain if the successful items can't be repeated. A repeat run of DRS coaches would sell IMHO due to the recent and current availability of locos, but MR have tied their hands and they themselves can't adapt and respond to make some money, and presumably recoup the investment in their other 'limited editions' they have sitting on their shelves. I will assume that a re-run of a successful batch is a lot cheaper than a new commission, so arguably it doesn't make any business sense (from where I'm sitting!)

 

For the record I'm not having a go a MR or any particular firm, just the whole limited edition business that is restricting the potential availability of desireable models in the market.

Virtually all models are batch-produced these days. Limited editions are merely smaller batches because the manufacturer doesn't believe he can sell larger quantities. The normal L/E quantity from the manufacturer is 500 minimum - that's decided by the manufacturer, not Model Rail. Usually a production batch will consist of a standard range item in 3 or 4 different guises, with a couple of L/Es added on to make the total batch worthwhile. In general it is rarely practical to add a second batch or increase a quantity above 500. It may be several years before the manufacturer re-runs a particular model, and L/Es are always added to production batches, not produced on their own. Experience shows that the second delivery does not sell out quickly enough and then a discount may be necessary in order to move the last of the stock. Overall, of course, the profit on any L/E is dependent on it selling out and selling out relatively quickly, otherwise your profit is tied up in the last few left on the shelf. In general, the only 'discounting' we do is to knock off the post and packing charge when we sell direct at shows. A re-run is generally more expensive than the original batch, as prices will have gone up in the meantime. I can't see any way that we'd be able to sell DRS coaches at around £30 each in today's market. It would probably cost close to that figure to buy them. Our main purpose in offering limited editions is to make available products which the manufacturers do not wish to put into their standard range. Sometimes we ask for something specific, on other occasions it is offered to us. Far from restricting availability, our limited editions have generally offered items which would not otherwise have been available as the manufacturer was not happy that a full standard range production batch would be viable. With regard to DRS vehicles it is my understanding that a licence fee would also now be required, further escalating the cost. The NR generator vans are a classic case of the problem with second batches. We didn't wish to disappoint customers, so we increased the order to cover them. (CJL)

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B*gger. I've chopped mine up....

 

That must reduce their resale value...........

 

Cheers,

Mick

I would, grudgingly, take them off your hands :D

 

As for doing a rerun not being cricket, I doubt any of the 'users' would feel too aggrieved. The 'investors' wouldn't be too happy but I wouldn't worry about them. The hobby would be better off without them.

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I don't even know where to start with this.

i think we call it the free market economy.

 

If you are unable to buy things when they come out, you don't get to buy them.

Why is your money any more valid than an eBay profiteer or a collector who wants one on his mantle piece ?

 

A firm exists to make money, if they can shift 512 to anyone they will.

They don't have any mandate to hold them back in case a ' real ' modeller wants to create a DRS train

 

They are not a charity !

 

 

quote name="ruggedpeak" post="2146006" timestamp="1451557949"]He did and made a perfectly reasonable point. This whole limited edition business is a nonsense as it just creates this overpriced market for arbitragers on ebay, and actually provides little benefit to "real" modellers or even the producers of these limited edition. Batch production has no relation to "limited edition", and this seems to be the problem MR and many others (including Hornby and other magazines) are creating for themselves and us.

 

A batch of say 500 units of an item has no impact on sales. It is only when you place an artificial limit on future releases that an artificial inflated value applies. By stating no further models will be made, they are effectively ruining it for everyone who doesn't order in time, hasn't got the money at that time or didn't know. For what benefit? If you watch MR's models they have had to discount models (and still are) to sell these "limited editions". Similarly Key have had their exclusive 66 and Gresley B17 for sale for years (and I got a discounted Gresley a while back). So saying it is a limited edition actually provides little benefit I can see to seller or buyers, and benefits only ebay resellers.

 

Did those modellers (not resellers) who bought these DRS coaches care it was a limited edition? I very much doubt it, as it has no impact on them modelling a DRS train like posters on here. Making limited editions screws over modellers to the profit of arbitragers. You only have to see the mess Hornby have got themselves into with Web only exclusives, limited editions etc.

 

Personally I see limited editions as a con and it would be nice if those in the marketplace would perhaps stop placing silly artificial limits on what we can buy. It is clear some of these batch items sell quickly like these DRS coaches, and others don't and become expensive stock sitting on a shelf. However few gain if the successful items can't be repeated. A repeat run of DRS coaches would sell IMHO due to the recent and current availability of locos, but MR have tied their hands and they themselves can't adapt and respond to make some money, and presumably recoup the investment in their other 'limited editions' they have sitting on their shelves. I will assume that a re-run of a successful batch is a lot cheaper than a new commission, so arguably it doesn't make any business sense (from where I'm sitting!)

 

For the record I'm not having a go a MR or any particular firm, just the whole limited edition business that is restricting the potential availability of desireable models in the market.

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I would, grudgingly, take them off your hands :D

 

As for doing a rerun not being cricket, I doubt any of the 'users' would feel too aggrieved. The 'investors' wouldn't be too happy but I wouldn't worry about them. The hobby would be better off without them.

The 'market' is made up of many different people. A limited edition sells to 500 of them, and I've no idea how many of that 500 might be 'investors' and how many are 'collectors' or 'real modellers'. I do know, however, that in order to make a run of 500 viable, we need all those people, regardless of what they do with the model after they've bought it. (We normally limit the number sold to any one buyer in the early days so that immediate Ebay profiteering is more difficult). I am quite certain, however, that:

1) Some purchasers (real modellers included) keep their models mint and boxed to retain their value. That doesn't make them investors.

2) There are safer things to invest in than model railway equipment. (As we 'baby boomers' die off the market may soon be awash with secondhand models with few young buyers who want them, as is already happening with railway books).

3) Without the mix of purchasers including collectors, investors and 'real modellers', even a run of 500 would not be viable. No one segment is big enough to take a whole limited edition.

So, No, the hobby would NOT 'be better off without them.'

(CJL)

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I don't even know where to start with this.

i think we call it the free market economy.

 

If you are unable to buy things when they come out, you don't get to buy them.

 

 

 

 

 

However, sometimes, the "limited edition" may have been produced before the particular modeller decides to "do" that period/era.

 

There have been times when a LE has been produced and I've thought " I don't want/need that" and then a few weeks/months later, decided that said LE fitted in with my plans. In fact the DRS coaches are such a case. I was lucky that I managed to purchase one of the last pair available from MR.

 

One LE I missed out on was the Hornby Diamond Jubilee 67. In the end, I made my own. (in some respects I'm lucky that I haven't been spoonfed a diet of good RTR over the past few years - I'm one of the generation that wasn't afraid to hack up Hornby 25s into 25/3s and Airfix 31's from headcode to skinhead for example. Craftsman detailing kits were all the rage back then)

 

There are a couple of LE's that I've bought and then changed plans. They were sold on and any profit made went directly to buying more model railway stuff.

 

Like a lot of life, limited editions are being in the right place at the right time (with suitable funds to buy it)

 

Cheers,

Mick

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That's very true Mick,

And I've fallen foul of this as well, but unlike some posters, I don't gripe about it.

 

I can't afford to stock pile models for future periods of modelling anymore.

I've got a lot of BR blue BGs and GUVs for the ' mainline 80s' model I can never see making now.

 

This are prime eBay fodder as supply has been a bit slow in that department.

Would I feel bad about making money on them ? Not really.

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