16t minerals

[Adam]

An interesting pairing on the S&DJR:

img149 (16th Feb 1957) by Regency Bristol, on Flickr

 

Nearest the camera, B24283 (ex-MoWT, BR 1/102) and next in line, B***342 a 1/108 (probably!). Note the split spoked wheels, independent brakes, unreinforced corners and pressed door.

 

Adam

Edited January 28, 2019 by Adam

[Hump Shunter]

OK, not 16T but perhaps interesting all the same.. B314684 Brighton Lovers Walk open day.

[iands]

OK, not 16T but perhaps interesting all the same.. B314684 Brighton Lovers Walk open day.

 

Love the lack of PPE, except the HV mini-vests, and the lack of a barrier/fence to keep the members of the public back! I imagine current H&S practitioners would be having a collective apoplectic fit at such practices!

[Hump Shunter]

Love the lack of PPE, except the HV mini-vests, and the lack of a barrier/fence to keep the members of the public back! I imagine current H&S practitioners would be having a collective apoplectic fit at such practices!

 

At least the wagon handbrake is on plus I think the ice cream van was parked hereabouts so nobody overheated.

[SHMD]

That last pic is absolutely invaluable.

Tons of detail and weathering and look where their slung their hook!

 

 

Thanks for posting it.

 

 

Kev.

[south_tyne]

Hopefully not too stupid a question but can anyone offer advice about the different grey liveries of unfitted 16t minerals. There seem to be a blue-grey livery and a darker grey. Was the latter introduced later?

 

For instance just using Dapol models as an example...

The first grey would be as follows:  https://www.Dapol.co.uk/shop/o-gauge/O-Gauge-Wagons-and-Freight/16t-steel-mineral-wagons/7F-030-001-O-Gauge-16T-Steel-Mineral-Wagon-Welded-BR-Blue-Grey-B223910-Diagram-1-108

 

The other type as here: https://www.Dapol.co.uk/shop/o-gauge/O-Gauge-Wagons-and-Freight/16t-steel-mineral-wagons/7F-030-004-O-Gauge-16T-Steel-Mineral-Wagon-Welded-BR-Grey-B266949-Diagram-1-108

 

If the latter was introduced later, at what date did it come in? They also have a 'coal' classification (I supposeto distinguish from those for other traffic). 

 

Any advice would be gratefully received and I apologise if it is a silly question! I understand it might be a complex issue though....

 

Cheers,

David 

 

[The Johnster]

It is not a silly question (the only silly questions are the ones you don't ask), but it is a more complex issue than it probably should be.  BR adopted grey as the standard livery for unfitted freight vehicles in 1948, and this remained the case until the introduction of the 'Railfreight' liveries in the 70s.  But there is grey and there is grey, complicated by the fact that the same paint looks different on wooden or steel surfaces, further complicated by the fact that the colour weathers differently in different conditions, and further further complicated by the fact that, especially in the first half dozen years of BR's existence, shortages of paints in a country still under an austerity economy and recovering from the aftermath of a world war, the correct colour was not always available to the paint shops which had to make do with the best they could mix.  50 shades of grey...

 

Then the same wagon photographed several times within a few minutes can look different in the phot  according to changing light conditions or altering the camera settings.  There were, IIRC, at least 3 shades used on mineral wagons, a sort of 'standard', a darker grey that I always assumed was the result of using surplus naval paint, and a sort of blue hued version, though.  It would probably be very difficult to tie these to particular workshops or periods, though, and of course an unfitted mineral wagon is in any case the lowest order of existence of railway vehicle and repaints were few and far between.  

 

For some time after nationalisation, wooden minerals and unfitted  wooden opens were not painted at all and simply released to traffic with unpainted planks, so serious was the paint shortage.

 

 

 

[south_tyne]

9 hours ago, The Johnster said:

It is not a silly question (the only silly questions are the ones you don't ask), but it is a more complex issue than it probably should be.  BR adopted grey as the standard livery for unfitted freight vehicles in 1948, and this remained the case until the introduction of the 'Railfreight' liveries in the 70s.  But there is grey and there is grey, complicated by the fact that the same paint looks different on wooden or steel surfaces, further complicated by the fact that the colour weathers differently in different conditions, and further further complicated by the fact that, especially in the first half dozen years of BR's existence, shortages of paints in a country still under an austerity economy and recovering from the aftermath of a world war, the correct colour was not always available to the paint shops which had to make do with the best they could mix.  50 shades of grey...

 

Then the same wagon photographed several times within a few minutes can look different in the phot  according to changing light conditions or altering the camera settings.  There were, IIRC, at least 3 shades used on mineral wagons, a sort of 'standard', a darker grey that I always assumed was the result of using surplus naval paint, and a sort of blue hued version, though.  It would probably be very difficult to tie these to particular workshops or periods, though, and of course an unfitted mineral wagon is in any case the lowest order of existence of railway vehicle and repaints were few and far between.  

 

For some time after nationalisation, wooden minerals and unfitted  wooden opens were not painted at all and simply released to traffic with unpainted planks, so serious was the paint shortage.

 

 

 

 

Thank you for taking the time to reply in such a comprehensive manner Johnster, that is much appreciated. 

 

As ever with this things I thought there would not be a simple answer. Anything to do with paint obviously depends on how it is mixed, what was available and weathering and wear and tear. Added to that, we as individuals obviously 'see' colours in different ways! 

 

So I suppose the short answer is that any of the three grey colours you mentioned could be suitable for a 1950s or 1960s era layout. 

 

Am I right in thinking that the 'coal' designation on the black panel (see the link to the second picture I posted) was introduced in the 1960s? I presume that even then, a wagon designated for such a use could end up being used on other traffic flows too, if there was a shortage pr a need? 

 

Thanks again for any help or assistance.

 

David

[Fat Controller]

2 hours ago, south_tyne said:

 

Thank you for taking the time to reply in such a comprehensive manner Johnster, that is much appreciated. 

 

As ever with this things I thought there would not be a simple answer. Anything to do with paint obviously depends on how it is mixed, what was available and weathering and wear and tear. Added to that, we as individuals obviously 'see' colours in different ways! 

 

So I suppose the short answer is that any of the three grey colours you mentioned could be suitable for a 1950s or 1960s era layout. 

 

Am I right in thinking that the 'coal' designation on the black panel (see the link to the second picture I posted) was introduced in the 1960s? I presume that even then, a wagon designated for such a use could end up being used on other traffic flows too, if there was a shortage pr a need? 

 

Thanks again for any help or assistance.

 

David

The 'Coal' descriptor was applied in what is usually referred to as 'post-1964' livery, with type, Loaded and Tare weights and number in a box towards the left-hand end. It was not the only one applied to this type, as examples were coded 'MIN' and 'SAND'. From experience of being paid to collect wagon numbers for démarrage purposes at a British Steel plant in the early 1970s, I would add that little or no attention was paid to type names. I saw wagons marked 'Sand', 'Return Empty to Temple Mills Wagon Works', 'For use by DCE King's Cross' and many others, and this at a site in South Wales that dealt with a few hundred wagons at most each week. The 16-tonner was the workhorse of the BR system; they carried everything from crated Vauxhall car parts and pit props to fish offal and domestic rubbish (the latter from the site of what is now the Emirates Stadium.

[hmrspaul]

B563289 although in the style introduced in 1963 - commonly is later - 1 July 1973 because it has a new body with no top door https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brmineralweld/e350820ec 

 

B233910 is in the original style, whether a mid 1950s wagon would have appeared new like that I'm uncertain, there was a tendency just to make one black ground for both the tonnage and running number

 

Paul Bartlett

[south_tyne]

7 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

The 'Coal' descriptor was applied in what is usually referred to as 'post-1964' livery, with type, Loaded and Tare weights and number in a box towards the left-hand end. It was not the only one applied to this type, as examples were coded 'MIN' and 'SAND'. From experience of being paid to collect wagon numbers for démarrage purposes at a British Steel plant in the early 1970s, I would add that little or no attention was paid to type names. I saw wagons marked 'Sand', 'Return Empty to Temple Mills Wagon Works', 'For use by DCE King's Cross' and many others, and this at a site in South Wales that dealt with a few hundred wagons at most each week. The 16-tonner was the workhorse of the BR system; they carried everything from crated Vauxhall car parts and pit props to fish offal and domestic rubbish (the latter from the site of what is now the Emirates Stadium.

 

Thanks that is fantastic and really informative. I thought the descriptors were introduced later but that confirmation is great. I can imagine that there was little notice taken with regard to keeping labelled wagons for specific wagon flows, presumably the real railway doesn't work in such a simple manner!

 

Those traffic flows are fascinating. Some Arsenal fans would say the rubbish on the site has continued...... the jokes write themselves!! 

 

9 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

B563289 although in the style introduced in 1963 - commonly is later - 1 July 1973 because it has a new body with no top door https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brmineralweld/e350820ec 

 

B233910 is in the original style, whether a mid 1950s wagon would have appeared new like that I'm uncertain, there was a tendency just to make one black ground for both the tonnage and running number

 

Paul Bartlett

 

Thanks very much Paul that's smashing. As ever your help is much appreciated and your wonderful website is a treasure trove of information. 

 

Cheers,

David

Edited February 4, 2019 by south_tyne

[Porcy Mane]

Two distinctly different shades of grey behind the Ivatt.

 

43037 near Holbrook Colliery Box April 18th 1964 by David Hills, on Flickr

 

P

[Axlebox]

...is that a BR 13t wooden hopper in the background or just one of the ordinary LNER ones??

[Porcy Mane]

5 minutes ago, Axlebox said:

...is that a BR 13t wooden hopper in the background or just one of the ordinary LNER ones??

 

I wondered how long it would take you to spot it. Also found a pic of No. 2L in steam at Garmondsway. (1st May 1960)

[Mark Saunders]

7 minutes ago, Axlebox said:

...is that a BR 13t wooden hopper in the background or just one of the ordinary LNER ones??

 

It looks in good condition but could be a late LNER or BR one as far as I know there is no difference between them!

[Axlebox]

56 minutes ago, Mark Saunders said:

 

It looks in good condition but could be a late LNER or BR one as far as I know there is no difference between them!

...except for the numbers (ok some there was a mix of buffers amongst the batches)...does that number look like it starts B400...or is that just my 'confirmation bias' kicking in again...

Edited February 28, 2019 by Axlebox
if only I could spell...

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

With reference to the (50) shades of grey, I have quite number of rattle can/acrylic/enamel paint variations for my mineral wagons, only 2 of which are "proper" BR Wagon Grey, and they are both different colours! In amongst the others are RAF/Luftwaffe/Games Workshop/Vallejo/local Chinese supermarket/Halfords variations on a theme, all give a nice variety, especially when weathered.

I wouldn't worry too much about getting it spot on, I doubt BR ever did.

 

Mike.

[Porcy Mane]

6 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

With reference to the (50) shades of grey, I have quite number of rattle can/acrylic/enamel paint variations for my mineral wagons, only 2 of which are "proper" BR Wagon Grey, and they are both different colours! In amongst the others are RAF/Luftwaffe/Games Workshop/Vallejo/local Chinese supermarket/Halfords variations on a theme, all give a nice variety, especially when weathered.

I wouldn't worry too much about getting it spot on, I doubt BR ever did.

 

Sort of;

[Adam]

A nice, clear image of a 1/100 (ex-PO Chas Roberts slop-sided mineral at Hessle in 1964. Some nice features, including the italic free hand tare weight, mixed wheels - neither with an awful lot of tyre depth - and also mixed axleboxes.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/40351290533/

 

Adam

 

[The Bigbee Line]

On ‎07‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 12:43, Swindon 123 said:

The MCV/MXV coding depends on your modeling year as the MXV coding didn't come in until the early 80's. Below are some shots of 4 shoe MCV's all taken in the early 80's.

B564550 MCO [TM 1-031(HR)] by Paul James, on Flickr

Note incorrect TOPS code.

B569498 MCV [A881B-031] by Paul James, on Flickr

B573433 MCV [A881B-028] by Paul James, on Flickr

 

B577188, B577355 MCV [A881B-030] by Paul James, on Flickr

 

B582568 MCV [A781C-14(HR)] by Paul James, on Flickr

B596290 MCV [TM 1-017(HR)] by Paul James, on Flickr

Note 10' wheelbase.

 

B596300 MCV [A881B-033] by Paul James, on Flickr

Another 10' wheelbase.

 

Now for some MXV coded wagons, some only recently re-coded by the looks of the paintwork.

B572793MXV [TM 1-035(HR)] by Paul James, on Flickr

 

B576248, B577026 MXV [bBR8 -109] by Paul James, on Flickr

 

Hope the above instill some inspiration.

 

Paul J.

 

Paul,

 

These pictures are good pictures for inspirational purposes.  The question has been asked about the angle used for the tie bars.  Any idea on the logic for the reinforcing rib on the brake lever?

[Fat Controller]

RE  the ribbed brake lever:- might they have been pressed from thinner steel, and thus required strengthening to stop hefty shunters bending them?

[south_tyne]

Another no doubt simplistic question (but hopefully not too stupid ).... but based on information already kindly shared by others in this thread, if I understand correctly, the larger black panels and 'traffic flow' labels were introduced to the 16t minerals from 1964. However they were not religiously pooled and could end up on any traffic as necessary 

 

There are the obvious ones - such as 'COAL' and other seemingly common ones such as 'MCV' and 'MCO' - with 'SAND' also having been mentioned. Were there quite a few different ones over the years and, if so, what other labels were applied to them from the mid-1960s onwards? 

 

Just curious and hopefully not too daft a question. 

 

Thanks in advance for any expertise and input,

David

 

Edited March 19, 2019 by south_tyne
Silly spelling

[Enterprisingwestern]

On 10/03/2019 at 11:39, Fat Controller said:

RE  the ribbed brake lever:- might they have been pressed from thinner steel, and thus required strengthening to stop hefty shunters bending them?

 

The "ribbed" lever was a stamping, the "normal" was a casting AIUI.

 

Mike.

[Fat Controller]

8 hours ago, south_tyne said:

Another no doubt simplistic question (but hopefully not too stupid ).... but based on information already kindly shared by others in this thread, if I understand correctly, the larger black panels and 'traffic flow' labels were introduced to the 16t minerals from 1964. However they were not religiously pooled and could end up on any traffic as necessary 

 

There are the obvious ones - such as 'COAL' and other seemingly common ones such as 'MCV' and 'MCO' - with 'SAND' also having been mentioned. Were there quite a few different ones over the years and, if so, what other labels were applied to them from the mid-1960s onwards? 

 

Just curious and hopefully not too daft a question. 

 

Thanks in advance for any expertise and input,

David

 

MCO , MCV and MXV  carried by unfitted minerals, 8-shoe vac-fitted minerals and 4-shoe fitted Minerals. There were also TOPS codes for fitted and unfitted 16-tonners used for Engineer's use, mainly for spoil, These were ZHV and ZHO respectively. A few were branded for use by the Chief Mechanical Engineer, and used to convey scrap from depots and repair works to Horwich Foundry for remelting for brake shoes.

Prior to that, there were:-

Coal 16

Coal 16 VB

Min

Minfit

Sand

 

[south_tyne]

30 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

MCO , MCV and MXV  carried by unfitted minerals, 8-shoe vac-fitted minerals and 4-shoe fitted Minerals. There were also TOPS codes for fitted and unfitted 16-tonners used for Engineer's use, mainly for spoil, These were ZHV and ZHO respectively. A few were branded for use by the Chief Mechanical Engineer, and used to convey scrap from depots and repair works to Horwich Foundry for remelting for brake shoes.

Prior to that, there were:-

Coal 16

Coal 16 VB

Min

Minfit

Sand

 

 

Thanks, that's really useful. Another (probably daft question) but were MCO , MCV and MXV for scrap metal? 

 

Also, could fitted and unfitted examples be combined in one train?