16t minerals

[Porcy Mane]

25 minutes ago, south_tyne said:

Thanks, that's really useful. Another (probably daft question) but were MCO , MCV and MXV for scrap metal? 

 

Any old 16 tonner (amongst other things) for scrap. As this load from Freddy Shepherds indicates.

 

Newcastle by Keith Long, on Flickr

 

Pic posted afresh as I couldn't be ar$ed to look for link to take us back to the phot earlier in the thread.

 

P

Edited March 19, 2019 by Porcy Mane

[south_tyne]

9 minutes ago, Porcy Mane said:

 

Any old 16 tonner (amongst other things) for scrap. As this load from Freddy Shepherds indicates.

 

Thanks, that's really useful. Another (probably daft question) but were MCO , MCV and MXV for scrap metal? 

 

Newcastle by Keith Long, on Flickr

 

Pic posted afresh as I couldn't be ar$ed to look for link to take us back to the phot earlier in the thread.

 

P

 

Cheers Mr P! That's a very atmospheric shot.

[Fat Controller]

4 minutes ago, Porcy Mane said:

 

Any old 16 tonner (amongst other things) for scrap. As this load from Freddy Shepherds indicates.

 

Thanks, that's really useful. Another (probably daft question) but were MCO , MCV and MXV for scrap metal? 

 

Newcastle by Keith Long, on Flickr

 

Pic posted afresh as I couldn't be ar$ed to look for link to take us back to the phot earlier in the thread.

 

P

Not one, but two Claytons at Newcastle; nice.

That view shows the difference between different types of scrap. The first wagon is carrying metal turnings (probably from Parson's), and will probably have less than 10 tonnes in it. The second is of baled scrap, and the wagon will have at least 16 tonnes on; if loaded up to the top, it would be above 20 tonnes.

It was common for wagons to arrive at a yard with coal, then reload at the same yard with scrap; this was still happening at Blaydon until the Miners' Strike. One rule that was meant to be observed was that wagons that had carried scrap were meant to be swept clean before being loaded with coal. Pieces of scrap could cause a lot of damage to boiler feed mechanism.

 

[Porcy Mane]

51 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

The first wagon is carrying metal turnings (probably from Parson's), and will probably have less than 10 tonnes in it. The second is of baled scrap, and the wagon will have at least 16 tonnes on; if loaded up to the top, it would be above 20 tonnes.

 

I'd bet money that both of those 16 tonners are part of the rake of the Riverside Pick up and have come from Shepherds. Shepherds were one of the few NE scrap businesses that had a F & P baler at the time and they took in scrap from all over Tyneside. The turnings could have come via Shepherds from a multitude of Tyneside traders, British Engines being just one. The Riverside pick up  nearly always had a number of empties for Shepherds returning to Tyne with the fulls which were then made up into a train for the pots at Consett.

[south_tyne]

57 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

Not one, but two Claytons at Newcastle; nice.

That view shows the difference between different types of scrap. The first wagon is carrying metal turnings (probably from Parson's), and will probably have less than 10 tonnes in it. The second is of baled scrap, and the wagon will have at least 16 tonnes on; if loaded up to the top, it would be above 20 tonnes.

It was common for wagons to arrive at a yard with coal, then reload at the same yard with scrap; this was still happening at Blaydon until the Miners' Strike. One rule that was meant to be observed was that wagons that had carried scrap were meant to be swept clean before being loaded with coal. Pieces of scrap could cause a lot of damage to boiler feed mechanism.

 

 

Thanks, that's fascinating regarding the Blaydon traffic flow 

[Killybegs]

1 hour ago, Porcy Mane said:

 

Any old 16 tonner (amongst other things) for scrap. As this load from Freddy Shepherds indicates.

 

Newcastle by Keith Long, on Flickr

 

Pic posted afresh as I couldn't be ar$ed to look for link to take us back to the phot earlier in the thread.

 

P

 

Now that would be a challenging exercise in track laying.

[Porcy Mane]

20 minutes ago, Killybegs said:

Now that would be a challenging exercise in track laying.

 

I have some negs of Gunpowder vans spread all over the crossings. Still reasonably in line but not one wheel were they should have been.

 

See you at Wakey?

[Killybegs]

1 hour ago, Porcy Mane said:

 

I have some negs of Gunpowder vans spread all over the crossings. Still reasonably in line but not one wheel were they should have been.

 

See you at Wakey?

 

I'm certainly planning on being there. I don't know if a decision has been made as to whether we will there on Saturday or Sunday.

[south_tyne]

4 hours ago, Killybegs said:

 

Now that would be a challenging exercise in track laying.

 

You'd need a big shed to model that little junction! 

 

Sand is a very interesting prototype traffic flow but one that you very rarely see modelled. In fact I don't know whether I have ever seen it done in detail on a layout, apart from maybe as a depiction of a narrow gauge line, as in Leighton Buzzard. There must have been plenty of places around the country though where sand was loaded directly into 16t wagons, presumably from a loading shute or similar.

 

I am sure someone far more knowlegable can confirm, but I suspect the 1970s was the last decade it was handled in 16 tonners?

[Fat Controller]

By and large, the sand that travelled by rail was very fine stuff that was used either in glass-making or as an ingredient in abrasive cleaners (Vim, Ajax and similar). The doors on 16-tonners were generally too ill-fitting to carry it without appreciable  loss ; hence the use of 13t and 27t tipplers.

Back in the late 1970s, I worked at a couple of locations overlooking the route that the Oakamoor- Stoke sand trains used. The wagons were a mixture of former iron-ore hoppers, Covhops, Prestwins, and a  few 27t tipplers- I don't recollect seeing any 16t minerals on the line at all. There was a general move towards covered vehicles, as glass-producers became more demanding, wanting sand without contamination by rust.

[Titan]

42 minutes ago, south_tyne said:

 

You'd need a big shed to model that little junction! 

 

Sand is a very interesting prototype traffic flow but one that you very rarely see modelled. In fact I don't know whether I have ever seen it done in detail on a layout, apart from maybe as a depiction of a narrow gauge line, as in Leighton Buzzard. There must have been plenty of places around the country though where sand was loaded directly into 16t wagons, presumably from a loading shute or similar.

 

I am sure someone far more knowlegable can confirm, but I suspect the 1970s was the last decade it was handled in 16 tonners?

 

Might have been some from Marks Tey, however the sand was mostly carried in 25.5T hoppers.

[Fat Controller]

6 minutes ago, Titan said:

 

Might have been some from Marks Tey, however the sand was mostly carried in 25.5T hoppers.

Marks Tey was loaded in hoppers, as the unloading facilities were the old coal-drops at Bow. Fen Drayton used 21t hoppers to similar faclilities at King's Cross.

[Kelvin B]

Hi All

A selection of weathered O Gauge Lionheart wagons.

 

More on my website www.kelvinsrailways.com

 

Cheers

 

Kelvin B

[Clive Mortimore]

5 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

Marks Tey was loaded in hoppers, as the unloading facilities were the old coal-drops at Bow. Fen Drayton used 21t hoppers to similar faclilities at King's Cross.

Hi Brian 

 

As Titan says sand was loaded in tipplers from Marks Tey during the early 80s. It was also loaded in ex ore hoppers. Both Titan and I lived in Witham and saw the sand trains regularly. In fact the only train I over took where the GER mainline and A12 run parallel at Boreham on my Honda C90 was the sand train.  

[Clive Mortimore]

I have found a photo of the sand train at Marks Tey station, composed of 27.5 ton tipplers. Note how the sand has been loaded. The loading digger has flattened the top down.  Unusual being hauled by a class 47. Photo taken 1982/3 time.

Edited March 19, 2019 by Clive Mortimore

[Titan]

10 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

I have found a photo of the sand train at Marks Tey station, composed of 27.5 ton tipplers. Note how the sand has been loaded. The loading digger has flattened the top down.  Unusual being hauled by a class 47. Photo taken 1982/3 time.

 

Was it the return empties that derailed and wrapped themselves around the road bridge at Witham ?  I suspect the large gouges in the brickwork are there to this day. Seemed like some of the train decided to try and go to Braintree instead. Wish I had a camera then!

[Fat Controller]

7 hours ago, Titan said:

 

Was it the return empties that derailed and wrapped themselves around the road bridge at Witham ?  I suspect the large gouges in the brickwork are there to this day. Seemed like some of the train decided to try and go to Braintree instead. Wish I had a camera then!

I remember a photo of that in Modern Railways..Another type that was used for sand traffic were the MTVs, the tipplers built on former 35t tank wagon underframes.

[Enterprisingwestern]

9 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

 In fact the only train I over took where the GER mainline and A12 run parallel at Boreham on my Honda C90 was the sand train.  

 

Yes Clive, those red lights are a pain for locomotive drivers!

 

Mike.

[Clive Mortimore]

44 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Yes Clive, those red lights are a pain for locomotive drivers!

 

Mike.

It was moving, the sand train when formed of ex ore hoppers was limited to 35 mph. It had two locos, normally 31s but sometimes a 31 and 37, the second loco was in reality a self propelled brake tender as it was there to provide extra brakes even though the train was fitted.

[hmrspaul]

OT but this brings up collections with Sand wagons https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/?q=sand

 

The Plaice was a very inappropriate wagon - how do I know, because the one we measured for MRC in a windy corner of Wellingborough was slowly losing its load - some of it into our eyes.

 

Paul

[Tom F]

My names Tom....and I'm addicted to 16Ts!

 

Here are some of my latest.

 

 

[south_tyne]

As a master of asking stupid questions  ...... could fitted and unfitted 16 tonners be seen in the same train? Secondly, were fitted examples kept for certain traffic flows or on specific diagrams or were both types just lumped into a common pot? 

 

Sorry as ever for asking such simple questions. Cheers for any help folk can provide. 

[The Johnster]

There are no stupid questions except the ones you don't ask, south_tyne, but there are stupid answers; I'll try to avoid giving you one!  Yes, fitted and unfitted 16tonners could be seen in the same train, with the fitted wagons both in the fitted head of the train and running as unfitted wagons with the vacuum brakes isolated in the unfitted section at the back.  

 

Yes, some fitted examples were kept for circuit traffic, especially as block trains during the 1980s, and yes, both types were pool wagons as well.  Really, for general modelling purposes, you can do almost anything with them except run fitted ones in passenger trains as tail traffic, as they were not 'XP' rated, having 9 foot chassis.  Fitted 16ton mineral wagons were not originally fitted with lamp brackets.  You can. of course, run them with passenger vehicles in mixed trains, which is not the same thing as tail traffic.

[south_tyne]

5 hours ago, The Johnster said:

There are no stupid questions except the ones you don't ask, south_tyne, but there are stupid answers; I'll try to avoid giving you one!  Yes, fitted and unfitted 16tonners could be seen in the same train, with the fitted wagons both in the fitted head of the train and running as unfitted wagons with the vacuum brakes isolated in the unfitted section at the back.  

 

Yes, some fitted examples were kept for circuit traffic, especially as block trains during the 1980s, and yes, both types were pool wagons as well.  Really, for general modelling purposes, you can do almost anything with them except run fitted ones in passenger trains as tail traffic, as they were not 'XP' rated, having 9 foot chassis.  Fitted 16ton mineral wagons were not originally fitted with lamp brackets.  You can. of course, run them with passenger vehicles in mixed trains, which is not the same thing as tail traffic.

 

Johnster,

 

Many thanks for your really helpful and informative response, that is smashing. I had wondered whether the fitted ones would/could have the brakes isolated to run as unfitted, but that is useful in confirming. It does seem rarer to see photographs of bauxite versions, especially in earlier years in the 1950s and '60s, but it's good to know they could be mixed together and I am maybe just looking at the wrong place for my prototype inspiration! 

 

I would be utilising them for bog standard coal traffic on my fledgling layout; so a few grey examples with an odd bauxite one for variety would seem to be acceptable in prototype terms and the best way to go. 

 

Thanks again for your help and for taking the time to reply. 

 

David 

 

[Fat Controller]

Until the mid-1960s, there were relatively few vacuum-braked examples, all having the 8-shoe BR brakes. They had to be kept off certain flows, due to unloading equipment getting tangled with the brake-gear. They were also unpopular with NCB shunters, who wouldn't couple the vacuum-pipes together in some locations. The programme was stalled, with some wagons receiving all the accoutrements of a fitted wagon, bar the cylinders. They were still running like that into the 1970s.

  From the mid-1960s, there was a programme to fit a large number of unfitted mineral wagons with vac-brakes, using four-shoe 'Morton' brakes. These are the wagons you'll see with tie-bars between the axleguards.

By the beginning of the 1980s, both Southern and Scottish Regions had gone over to fully-fitted trains, so only fitted 16-tonners were to be seen on them.