Painting the Ratio OO gauge MR clerestory coaches

[brian777999]

I have purchased six of the Ratio Midland Clerestory coaches. I have built one of these previously. It took me ages due to the problems I was having with the roof. It curved badly due to me only painting one side. (You should paint both top and bottom.) Eventually all the problems were dealt with and the completed coach looks quite nice but without the lining. I do not have a lining pen as yet. I built it as an LMS coach.

 

http://www.anticsonline.co.uk/1407_1.html

 

1. Would these coaches have run without lining during the LMS days ?

 

2. If I paint them as Midland coaches, can I use the same crimson lake I used for painting the LMS coach ie. was it the same colour ? I notice that Phoenix paints produce both a LMS and MR crimson lake !

 

3. If I decide to paint them as Midland coaches then I will need the word "Midland" in small letters. HMRS said they only have it on sheet #24 but they said it appears on a black background. I don't think this is what I need. It is hard to tell from their website if the sheet has what I need.

 

http://www.hmrs.org.uk/transfers/transferdetails.php?transferid=1027

 

4. Is lining a panelled coach more difficult than lining a flat coach side ?

 

If you could answer even one question it would be a big help. Opinions are also greatly valued. If somebody has actually built these coaches then I would love to see your photos.

[BernardTPM]

3. If I decide to paint them as Midland coaches then I will need the word "Midland" in small letters. HMRS said they only have it on sheet #24 but they said it appears on a black background.

There are eight black panels that may say 'MIDLAND' on that sheet, but beside those there are definitely twelve normal shaded small 'MIDLAND's.

[coachmann]

To answer some of your questions.....

 

 

If you opt for Midland livery, the word MIDLAND is serif style on a black background.

 

Crimson lake colour is the same on Midland and LMS.

 

It is possible some ran unlined in LMS days after repairs during the war and in the postwar period.

 

Lining out any coach with raised panelling is more difficult that simple lining on a flush side.

 

I built one but didn't photograph it. I did however etch a short-run in brass in 2003-4 and made masters to cast 8ft and 10ft w.b. bogies. Most went to Switzerland but I heard some appeared on ebay recently.

[bill-lobb]

I once lined one of these reasonably successfully as follows:

1) Paint coach crimson.

2) Brush paint the raised panelling gold.

3) Spray the side with matt varnish. This allows a suitable key to....

4) Put in the black centre of the lining with a Rotring pen and black ink.

5) Varnish to taste.

 

I think the clerestories will be easier than the arc roof ones, as, IIRC, they are Clayton square panel ones, so you don't have to worry about curved corners to the lining.

 

The lettering will depend on the period you model (I'm talking Midland here - I know nothing about LMS)

Prior to 1906, I think they would have a small san serif 'MIDLAND' in the waist panels, with the class designation spelt out as 'FIRST' and 'Third' in the waist panel of the door.

After 1906 they would have a Serif 'MIDLAND' on a black panel under the eave of the roof, about in the middle, and large numbers 1 and 3 on the doors. Lining would be gold pre WW1 and yellow afterwards for non corridor coaches.

 

Bill

[coachmann]

What I said about serif MIDLAND on a black panel still stands. Forget about liveries that existed before the coaches were built!

[brian777999]

There are eight black panels that may say 'MIDLAND' on that sheet, but beside those there are definitely twelve normal shaded small 'MIDLAND's.

 

Thank you. It is impossible to tell from their website. I cannot read it even when I enlarge it. The lady who replied to my email did not mention any other "Midland".

[brian777999]

What I said about serif MIDLAND on a black panel still stands. Forget about liveries that existed before the coaches were built!

 

Do you mean that only the post 1906 livery applies ? I thought that these coaches were quite old ?

 

That is a wonderful photo...thank you for that. I have added it to my collection. It is the first time I have seen a photo of an actual coach. Who owns that coach and where is it located ? Would the ends have been crimson lake during the MR days ?

 

Most of your etches went to Switzerland ? I did not envisage Switzerland as being a hot spot for modelling the Midland Railway !

[jwealleans]

Brian,

 

Larry's advice and coach are as good as it gets but you should also be aware (if you can set eyes on a copy) that Wild Swan's The 4mm Coach Part 1 by Stephen Williams has a whole chapter on building, detailing and painting one of these kits and includes a number of photographs in LMS and Midland livery.

[coachmann]

The LMS adopted the former Midland livery with a few provisos which don't apply to non-corridor coaches. Sorry I cannot divulge the name of the purchaser of that model coach.

[bill-lobb]

What I said about serif MIDLAND on a black panel still stands. Forget about liveries that existed before the coaches were built!

 

Sorry, but you have lost me here. My understanding is that the Ratio Clerestories are Clayton square panel express stock which were built in the late 1890s. Am I wrong about that? In which case either pre or post 1906 liveries are possible, and both of our statements stand.

I fully agree about the photograph. That is a lovely model. Wish I was capable of achieving that.

Bill

[coachmann]

Sorry, but you have lost me here.

 

Embarrassing moment time........... I should spend more time reading RMweb properly. Don't ask me why (apart from dyslexia) but I completely missed the word 'clerestory' and went down the path of Ratio Bain arc roof coaches! You are completely right, the clerestories pre-date the 1906 livery changes.

 

coach

[meil]

The only fly in the ointment is that the Ratio mouldings have the ventilator over the door. This was fitted by the LMS. In Midland days there was a window there.

[brian777999]

The only fly in the ointment is that the Ratio mouldings have the ventilator over the door. This was fitted by the LMS. In Midland days there was a window there.

 

 

Goodness me ! To my eyes, that is a fairly major difference but if nobody else has picked it until now then I guess we can get away with it.

 

I think I am going to gave to buy that Wild Swan book and have a look at the photographs of completed models.

 

Would these coaches ever have run with spoked wheels ?

[brian777999]

The LMS adopted the former Midland livery with a few provisos which don't apply to non-corridor coaches. Sorry I cannot divulge the name of the purchaser of that model coach.

 

 

I thought that was a real coach in the photo ! I was fooled completely. That is why I asked who owned it and where it was located.

 

I was also wondering about the batch of models that went to Switzerland ; it seemed an unlikely destination.

[coachmann]

My customers for painting & lining and coaches came from all over the globe from civvies to royalty. Interest in UK railways is worldwide it seems. Since taking semi-retirement I only despatch to UK addresses.

 

I thought that was a real coach in the photo !

I wish! Preservation probably came too late for many fine carriages.

[terry_nyorks]

For some prototype pictures have a look at the Flickr "Clerestory Coaches (Railways)" group : http://www.flickr.com/photos/67908005@N02/ . 

 

For examples of the MR stock, search the group for "American Pullman Import". There are one or two historical rakes in Radford's book! 

 

Or search likewise in my photostream for American design protoypes, and other MR build models : http://www.flickr.com/photos/67908005@N02/ .

[MarkC]

 

 

 

Goodness me ! To my eyes, that is a fairly major difference but if nobody else has picked it until now then I guess we can get away with it.

 

I think I am going to gave to buy that Wild Swan book and have a look at the photographs of completed models.

 

Would these coaches ever have run with spoked wheels ?

 

 

 

Goodness me ! To my eyes, that is a fairly major difference but if nobody else has picked it until now then I guess we can get away with it.

 

I think I am going to gave to buy that Wild Swan book and have a look at the photographs of completed models.

 

Would these coaches ever have run with spoked wheels ?

 

The Wild Swan book is very good, and I'm 99% certain that they only ever ran with the Mansell wheels - I've never seen a picture of those vehicles running with spoked wheels, but as ever stand to be corrected.

 

Mark

Edited December 27, 2012 by MarkC

[Poor Old Bruce]

Would these coaches ever have run with spoked wheels ?

Probably not in traffic. They would most likely have had Mansell wheels.

[kevinlms]

 

 

1. Would these coaches have run without lining during the LMS days ?

 

 

You could build them as later simple LMS livery, so called because there was only the lining at waist level & not the full all over lining as per Larry's example. This would apply to coaches repainted after 1934.

 

Added 'simple' as without it, it made little sense.

Edited December 28, 2012 by kevinlms

[brossard]

I haven't seen it mentioned (possibly because this thread is about painting) but, from my experience, the Ratio bogies are hopelessly fragile to expect any kind of reliable running.  I would tend to give the etched brass products a try from Brassmasters:  http://www.brassmasters.co.uk/bogie_CUs.htm (haven't actually tried these but intend to)

 

I have used the MJT products:  http://www.dartcastings.co.uk/mjt.php#SuspensionSystems-CarriageCompensationUnits and these work very well.

 

You will need to use the Ratio components as cosmetic sides.  Make sure you get the right wheelbase.

 

John

[Jol Wilkinson]

I haven't seen it mentioned (possibly because this thread is about painting) but, from my experience, the Ratio bogies are hopelessly fragile to expect any kind of reliable running.  I would tend to give the etched brass products a try from Brassmasters:  http://www.brassmasters.co.uk/bogie_CUs.htm (haven't actually tried these but intend to)

 

I have used the MJT products:  http://www.dartcastings.co.uk/mjt.php#SuspensionSystems-CarriageCompensationUnits and these work very well.

 

You will need to use the Ratio components as cosmetic sides.  Make sure you get the right wheelbase.

 

John

I agree with John about the Ratio bogies.

 

The Brassmasters units are very good, simple to assemble and easy to add the Ratio bogie cosmetic sides. Don't forget you also need new wheels and pinpoint bearings (Markits or Alan Gibson). I would recommend those in preference to the Ratio moulded wheels any way.

Edited December 29, 2012 by LNWRmodeller

[brian777999]

So what is the best tool for a beginner : a lining Pen or a good quality bow pen ? Or is it a case that you have to try them both and see for yourself ?

[brian777999]

Fine Sharpie pens are now available filled with yellow enamel paint (see ebay) . Has anybody tried these for lining ?

 

NOTE : I tried to cut and paste the link but it would not work.

Edited January 19, 2016 by brian777999

[Guest Lyonesse]

The only fly in the ointment is that the Ratio mouldings have the ventilator ovIor. This was fitted by the LMS. In Midland days there was a window there.

It's possible to remove the ventilator and cut a window there.  I did it on my four with reasonably good results.

[Mrkirtley800]

Hello brian777999, I bought some Ratio kits almost as soon as they became available, put them together and took them off to Larry to be painted.  That must have been in the early 1980's possibly.  Unfortunately I didn't know very much about Midland carriages then, so did not substitute the ventilators for windows, and I am not going to risk Larry's paintwork and do it now.

To give you some idea here are a few piccies of both the low roofed and clerestory 48' coaches, running on my old Canal Road layout.  The bogies are still the original Ratio ones, although I used brass bearings and metal wheels to EM gauge.

My apologies if you have seen them before.

Derek